The Official Comical-Keys-Robojo-Charlton-Guy Wager Thread!!!

[The Charlton Guy]

Man, I really got myself into it on this one...:

http://forums.ebay.com/db1/thread.jspa?threadID=1000520928&tstart=0&mod=1183553052952

Thanks a LOT Stu!

[marvelguy]

Wow! You got a bet going on down. Here's hoping your instinct wins out.#woohoo#

[The Charlton Guy]

CGC SUPREME GRADER AND GRAND POOBAH STEVE BOROCK:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/maroon-1.jpg

"Hmmmm....these macaroons don't appear to be trimmed or color-touched..."

"I could be wrong though...better ask C.G."


#rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl#

Ohhhhh...I really kill me...

[marvelguy]

Hey, I love them cookies. I'll eat them even if they're crumbs.

[disneyteddies]

I'll NEVER challenge CG....LoL! You go Boy....(thumps on chest)!

[The Charlton Guy]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/Charlton-Kong.jpg

[The Charlton Guy]

Here's the latest and greatest from the ebay thread:


Thursday, July 5th:

Now it’s time to move on to the reason that I made this wager in the first place and likely the reason that this thread is garnishing attention elsewhere.

Robojo, it comes down to the question of your buying relationship with Comical-Keys and the number of his books that are showing up in your auctions.

You only admit to having sold three, but I see more. In fact, I would not have gotten into this if I didn't think that the FF 23 was one of Trim-Meister's gems. I may be wrong. In fact, there are other books that you have offered up that I KNOW are from his previous 2006 auctions. I stongly suspect that the FF 23 is one of them.

Let me recap what you yourself have said about you dealings with The Comical One:


“I won comics from him on a fairly steady basis and twice he helped me pay a seller with paypal.”

“I had been regularly sending RK want lists since my first win a year or so before. I asked what goodies he had coming up on eBay. He told me about his scheduled listings. He sent me a list and then scans and descriptions of the ones I was interested in. After I saw the scans, I hoped to win some of them. I told him to hold off on my refund. I knew I'd be spending that and more with him over the next two weeks on his new listings.”

(Question: "Have you sold any of the books you bought from Richard Koos as unrestored on eBay?")

”Yes I have. Three out of 176 listings so far:”

Spiderman#45 NM+

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170114246751 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170114246751)

Spiderman#69 NM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170110318024 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170110318024)

Spiderman#7 VG/FN

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170094047429 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170094047429)



“I didn't list those three as restored because they were unrestored. The scans are still up and I'd be willing to make similar wagers on those three that we have cooking on the FF#23….There's no question in my mind that they're unrestored.”

“I'm not going to stick up for sellers or rail on sellers.”

Well I am. First though, I will stick up for you in at least one respect, as you have been forthright and outspoken in defending a number of your books and in attempting to provide some provenance.

But dude, you are in a SERIOUS state of denial when it comes to books that you have acquired from Comical-Keys.

As I said earlier, I doubt that more than a handful of the books he offered up over the last seven years was un-tampered with. The stories are endless and there are numerous testimonials to the financial highway robbery that this guy commited.

In fact, I received one tonight over at The Comics Corral. A new Member over there sent me the following email. I don’t think that he will mind me sharing it with you all:

Hi,

You dont know me but we have 1 thing in common we have both been conned by the crook known as danny dupcak. I have read your posts on ebay and agree 100% with what you have to say bout him. I also have your mock comic-keys auction from last year saved on my PC and would like to correct you on 1 thing. On the guaranteed unrestored section your 4th version is not entirely correct. You see this crook still owes me $18,000 so when you say:-

' and offer to issue you a full refund out of fear of being ARRESTED '

im afraid just isnt true. Ive reported him to Queens Police Department and have been told by a Sgt.John Kenna that a victim needs to go down to the station to swear out a complaint before action can be taken. So at the moment we are all sitting around waiting for this person to turn up. Out of everyone i know who has been conned by this crook no-one lives in New York. The latest victim who has had 14 books out of 14 come back restored from CGC SO FAR lives 800 miles away so this is proving very fustrating. Can i just ask you if you know any victims close enough to Queens Police Dept who could go down and swear a complaint please tell them to do so for all our sakes.

thanks
XXXXXXX

Now that is just one ripped off, massively disappointed customer. Not a customer, but a VICTIM of one of the most pernicious frauds to occur in ebay comic selling.

This poor dude is just one of many though. Take another look at the website that OldGuy (over on the CGC Boards) set up. And REALLY READ IT:

http://www.justafanboy.com/ComicKeys/cbg.htm (http://www.justafanboy.com/ComicKeys/cbg.htm)

And that’s STILL just tip of the iceberg material. I doubt that there is a single buyer involved with this clown who wasn’t ripped off for hundreds or thousands of dollars.

And his books are all over the place.

And now you are selling them.

That is why this wager is on.

And to the poor dude who sent me that email? Stay in touch at the Corral.

And to others who were scammed? The same goes for you. Come on over to http://www.comicscorral.com and say howdy!

So Robojo? Again, I do appreciate the fact that you have made an effort to be forthwith regarding most of your books.

But get a grip man, those Comical-Keys books are an accident waiting to happen.

[The Charlton Guy]

Well, the thread has been pulled.

Big surprise.

I could just picture that bozo Comic-Keys hitting the report button...over and over and over and over.

About five minutes before it was pulled, I said to myself, "Self? You better save this thread, it's gonna get pulled!"

But did I save it? No...fool.

If anyone did save it, please forward me a copy and I will re-post it here.

In the meantime, I am re-titling this thread and I cordially invite all participants and watchers of the ebay thread to pipe in here.

Come on down Robojo! This wager is still on!#woohoo#

[Hoss]

Here's the info from the July 5, 2007 Google Cache:

Discussion Post a reply (http://72.14.209.104/post!reply.jspa?threadID=1000520928) | Print (javascript:popup('thread.jspa?threadID=1000520928&start=0&print=true');)
Could this be...? stupidman! (705 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=stupidman%21) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconPurpleStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/stupidman%21) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=stupidman%21) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=1009475787) Jul-01-07 19:43 PDT ... a certain kind of seller? This book look trimmed?
http://cgi.ebay.com/AMAZING-SPIDER-MAN-33-NM_W0QQitemZ180132855065QQihZ008QQcategoryZ32739QQ rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/AMAZING-SPIDER-MAN-33-NM_W0QQitemZ180132855065QQihZ008QQcategoryZ32739QQ rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Check the language in the "Ask A Question" section:

"Dear JKC, Nobody's infallible but I do check very responsibly. If there's a question of originality, I won't list a comic as unrestored or unrepaired. I was certain that this comic wasn't trimmed. I just looked again. Top to bottom, the comic is 1/64inch shy of 10.25 inches. There's a small, unbroken, one inch-wide green band of distribution ink across the top edge of the pages. There's also a neat thin band of bluegreen distribution ink one inch-wide across the bottom edge of the pages. Because of the full size and distribution ink on both top and bottom page ends I recommend bidding if interested. The comics are as nice as they look, and problem free. My non-graded listings have generated very strong prices. $600+ for a Silver Surfer #1 VF-, etc. My feedback shows positive results for each item that listed. Mostly from high feedback, recognized hobbyists. I'm very proud of my feedback and my bidders. Based on the prices my listings are bringing, I don't think I'm missing much by listing non-prograded comics." (Credit to the CGC Board for starting the original thread)



36 repliesDate postedReply #dpxcomicsgirl (75 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=dpxcomicsgirl) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconBlueStar_25x25.gif) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=dpxcomicsgirl) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=1009475908) Jul-01-07 19:56 PDT 1 of 36 The edges of that comic do look suspicious! They look so neat it's kinda scary.

Seller posted scan of back cover:
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z174/Robojo33/AmazingSpiderman33backcover_june21.jpg (http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z174/Robojo33/AmazingSpiderman33backcover_june21.jpg)

robojo33 (404 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=robojo33) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/robojo33) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=robojo33) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006928840) Jul-01-07 23:10 PDT 2 of 36 I also posted 3 high res scans of all 3 edges:

http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z174/Robojo33/?action=view¤t=AmazingSpiderman33_topedge.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z174/Robojo33/?action=view¤t=AmazingSpiderman33_topedge.jpg)


http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z174/Robojo33/?action=view¤t=AmazingSpiderman33_rightedge.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z174/Robojo33/?action=view¤t=AmazingSpiderman33_rightedge.jpg)


http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z174/Robojo33/?action=view¤t=AmazingSpiderman33_bottomedge.jpg (http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z174/Robojo33/?action=view¤t=AmazingSpiderman33_bottomedge.jpg)


There are blue-green distribution ink bands across the page ends looking at it from the top and bottom. Those two edges can't possibly be trimmed.

All of the right edge page ends have normal ribs that line up to tiny cover edge notches. The cut is a bit ruff but looks normal. The right is not trimmed. The comic will best speak for itself when it's submitted.

This #33 is listed in my buying feedback (look around May 25th). It came from OneMillionComics. That seller me by email that it was more of a NM+ but he called it NM to please ultra-pickiest collectors. I took a chance and he was spot on. It's beautiful and untouched. I flipped it. There's nothing wrong with that. I've got three other #33s. Why not?


Here's what's odd about this. Accusing a seller of not disclosing trim on a #33 offered the same night as a trimming disclosed Spiderman #1 and #2:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180132877367&rd=1&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180132877367&rd=1&rd=1)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180132864904&rd=1&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180132864904&rd=1&rd=1)

Color touch was fully disclosed on this Sunday close listing too:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180132834940&rd=1&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180132834940&rd=1&rd=1)

The #1 probably would have ended over $50,000 if trim was not disclosed. I got emails offering mad money if I had an untrimmed one just like it that I wanted to sell.


I disclosed repair on two big dollar comics & one cheap one. I didn't dishonestly fail to disclose repair on one other cheap one.
By failing to disclose the trim on the #1, I could have cleared an extra $44,000.
But I have spotless, large selling feedback and don't fail to disclose work.

Any and all work on any of my comics has been and will always be fully and honestly disclosed to the best of my ability.
I recommend anyone with doubts winning and submitting one. Talk is cheap. The real proof is in the pudding.

robojo33 (404 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=robojo33) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/robojo33) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=robojo33) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006928903) Jul-01-07 23:31 PDT 3 of 36 Those Photobucket links for the 3 edge scans aren't showing up right. Let's try this set of edge scan links instead:

http://members.aol.com/robotics223/comics/AmazingSpiderman33_topedge.jpg (http://members.aol.com/robotics223/comics/AmazingSpiderman33_topedge.jpg)

http://members.aol.com/robotics223/comics/AmazingSpiderman33_bottomedge.jpg (http://members.aol.com/robotics223/comics/AmazingSpiderman33_bottomedge.jpg)

http://members.aol.com/robotics223/comics/AmazingSpiderman33_rightedge.jpg (http://members.aol.com/robotics223/comics/AmazingSpiderman33_rightedge.jpg)

Here's a bonus scan from the back:

http://members.aol.com/robotics223/comics/AmazingSpiderman33_RightEdgeRear.jpg (http://members.aol.com/robotics223/comics/AmazingSpiderman33_RightEdgeRear.jpg)

robojo33 (404 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=robojo33) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/robojo33) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=robojo33) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=1009482788) Jul-02-07 13:45 PDT 4 of 36 I wanted to show the distribution ink. High angle scans of the top and bottom edges were taken.
I put it between two backboards and hand held at a steep angle. Enough of the cover shows to tell its the same #33.
These scans show the two distribution ink bands I described directly on the cover ends and page ends. The comic looks a little bit wavey because I held it by hand. I did my best not to move.

http://members.aol.com/robotics223/comics/AmazingSpiderman33_top_high_angle.jpg (http://members.aol.com/robotics223/comics/AmazingSpiderman33_top_high_angle.jpg)

http://members.aol.com/robotics223/comics/AmazingSpiderman33_bottom_high_angle.jpg (http://members.aol.com/robotics223/comics/AmazingSpiderman33_bottom_high_angle.jpg)

The edges speak for themselves. Clear photographic evidence of the distribution ink rules out trimming. The submission will be a positive one.
I'm going back to using my other scanner for listings. I was told that my past scans were unclear.
I got a new HP and it seems the scans may be too bright and clear on NM and better edges.
Now I know how to safely shoot high angle edge scans and will include links for them on every NM- and better comic I list.

bpmcomics (63 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=bpmcomics) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconBlueStar_25x25.gif) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=bpmcomics) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=1009484788) Jul-02-07 16:59 PDT 5 of 36 Do you know someone by the name of Richard Koos, robojo33?

robojo33 (404 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=robojo33) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/robojo33) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=robojo33) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006938988) Jul-02-07 21:33 PDT 6 of 36 Sure I do. I won comics from him on a fairly steady basis and twice he helped me pay a seller with paypal. I remember the events very well. If you don't mind reading, I don't mind relating the details.

Two years ago I won a group of four comics from RK. I was happy with three of them but didn't like one of the four. He told me "No problem send it back for a refund".

I had been regularly sending RK want lists since my first win a year or so before. I asked what goodies he had coming up on eBay. He told me about his scheduled listings. He sent me a list and then scans and descriptions of the ones I was interested in. After I saw the scans, I hoped to win some of them. I told him to hold off on my refund. I knew I'd be spending that and more with him over the next two weeks on his new listings.

The following week I won a UK seller's comic. I didn't see 'paypal only' when I won. It was before I had paypal. My UK seller asked if I could send paypal from a third party. He said my check would take forever to clear his bank.

I told the UK seller that I'd ask RK if he could send payment for it. RK owed me a refund credit and he had paypal. Problem solved. The UK seller was happy with that.

RK sent paypal to the UK seller and deducted the money from my balance. RK told me "No problem. Any time you need help with anything just ask".

I liked the UK seller's comic. So the next month I wanted to win more of his listings. I asked him before I bid if it was ok for RK to pay him again if I win. The UK seller was fine with that too. I bid on about 10 of the UK seller's comics but only won one of them for under $100. RK sent the UK seller paypal for the second time and told me "Forget it. I'll take it off of your next buy".

I'd be happy to give you the UK seller's name and email to verify all this if you want to message me.

Those were the only two times that I asked a third party for paypal assistance. The next month I got a paypal account. I never had to enlist help for a paypal only purchase again.

thecharltonguy (174 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=thecharltonguy) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/thecharltonguy) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=thecharltonguy) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=1009489292) Jul-03-07 05:02 PDT 7 of 36 The pertinant issue here is trimming, not what a swell guy ComIcal-Keys is.

Since Mr. Comical-Keys has discarded hIs original account (rather than make his Feedback public), there are many, including yours truely, who have been waiting for him to pop up again with another seller name.

There are a few candidates who have been discussed here and elsewhere, and to tell the truth, I really could care less where he is or what he is selling.

What did and does disturb me about the past and present sales from Comical-Keys is the fact that undisclosed trimming has become somewhat of a norm, at least in terms of profit-making, and on its way to being acceptable in collecting circles.

This is very disturbing and unacceptable to the vast majority of serious comic collectors.

For every one of Comical-Keys sales that was refunded when the trimming came to light after purchase, I am willing to bet that there are two sales that went undisclosed, with some sucker holding on to a trimmed, color-touched "Key" book in their collection. I know, because I'm one of them.

You seem to make a distinction, and have had a couple of books that you called out as trimmed. But the question is, how do you make that distinction? As Stu called out here originally, that AS #33 certainly looks to be trimmed. Some of us (a lot of us) know an Exacto-cut edge when we see one.

The greater question is, how many of Comical-Keys trimmed hatchet-jobs are floating around in the marketplace as undisclosed trim jobs?

How many of yours are?

This really sucks for the collector of SA books, especially disturbing as a lot of Comical-Keys books were likely in good shape to begin with before being Exacto-massacred.

The buyer of an $500 to $5,000 undisclosed trim job might as well buy a reprint and read it, because the two books are worth about the same.
http://72.14.209.104/images/emoticons/happy.gif

CHARLTON COMICS GIVE YOU MORE!!!

stupidman! (705 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=stupidman%21) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconPurpleStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/stupidman%21) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=stupidman%21) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006943282) Jul-03-07 10:49 PDT 8 of 36 Don't need an excuse to link this:
http://www.justafanboy.com/ComicKeys/cbg.htm (http://www.justafanboy.com/ComicKeys/cbg.htm) http://members.aol.com/catmanstu/comickeys.jpg


thecharltonguy (174 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=thecharltonguy) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/thecharltonguy) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=thecharltonguy) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=1009495474) Jul-03-07 16:19 PDT 9 of 36 Nice one here too...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180127149686 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180127149686)


Looks like one of my early attempts:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/ATOM-21.jpg
http://72.14.209.104/images/emoticons/happy.gif

CHARLTON COMICS GIVE YOU MORE!!!

thecharltonguy (174 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=thecharltonguy) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/thecharltonguy) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=thecharltonguy) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=1009496283) Jul-03-07 17:34 PDT 10 of 36 The edges speak for themselves.

Clear photographic evidence of the color-touch ink rules out trimming.

Here's the back cover to remove all doubt:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/Atom-21-BK.jpg
http://72.14.209.104/images/emoticons/happy.gif

CHARLTON COMICS GIVE YOU MORE!!!

robojo33 (404 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=robojo33) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/robojo33) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=robojo33) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006947522) Jul-03-07 17:43 PDT 11 of 36 You were sure the #33 was trimmed. High angled edge scans of the distribution ink prove it can't be. You didn't say you may have been mistaken.

Now it's the FF#23's turn. You compare the FF#23 to a brutalized comic and make fun of me.

When the FF#23 is returned from CGC with a Universal label will that be all? Will you still pick out my non-trimmed comics and irresponsibly call them trimmed?

Before falsely accusing me again on another comic, you should make a responsible recap post on the Spiderman#33. I'm assuming that you still think the #33 is trimmed otherwise you would'nt have picked on the FF#23.

I suggest to you winning one of my unrestored comics. Send it to CGC. If it does'nt grade Universal, I'll refund your payment. I'll also refund your grading fees, and postage all the way around when you send it back.

Then you'd be justified to make lots more accusations. Right now you're just pointing fingers irresponsibly. But if you do what I suggest, you'll become a regular customer.

thecharltonguy (174 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=thecharltonguy) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/thecharltonguy) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=thecharltonguy) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006947652) Jul-03-07 17:58 PDT 12 of 36 LOL!

Not likely!

As for the #33, it's the right hand edge that is obviously trimmed. Perhaps you could take a few electron microscope photographs to disprove that one. That might change my mind. Not likely though.

As for your other items, including the FF 23, all I can say is that you opened the door on that one yourself by admitting purchases from and dealing with Comical-Keys. Everybody and their third cousin twice removed knows that he is the Trim-Meister Extrordinairre.

It doesn't take much searching around your past auctions to see some mighty suspect books.

As for a CGC "certification"...HA! Those maroons have not prooved themselves very adept at discerning trimming...have they? But I would be willing to bet you the winning bid amount on that FF 23 that if you contact the owner and ask them to submit it to CGC (hell, I would be happy to pay the submission fee, have them send me a message) that it will come back purple for sure, trimmed for sure. I know my SA FFs, particularly that issue, and it took all of about 3 seconds to see that it is trimmed on all three sides. Look at some other high-res scans of the same issue. But hell, don't take my word for it...I wouldn't.
http://72.14.209.104/images/emoticons/happy.gif

CHARLTON COMICS GIVE YOU MORE!!!

bpmcomics (63 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=bpmcomics) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconBlueStar_25x25.gif) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=bpmcomics) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=1009496503) Jul-03-07 17:59 PDT 13 of 36 So what happened to the books you bought from Richard Koos? Also, where are you coming up with multiple high grade copies? I think it's pretty easy to understand the skepticism surrounding a guy who suddenly lists dozens of ultra high grade raw material and posts scans that look eerily similar that of a Comic-Keys/Richard Koos/Danny Dupcak scan.

robojo33 (404 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=robojo33) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/robojo33) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=robojo33) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=1009496698) Jul-03-07 18:17 PDT 14 of 36 CGC graders are "maroons"? They've professionally graded over a million comics. When the FF#23 and Spiderman #33 are graded Universal that doesn't count?

You're saying that your opinion of a scan is more accurate than CGC's restoration check? You can tell if a comic is trimmed without examining the page ends? I've never heard anyone else make these claims.

robojo33 (404 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=robojo33) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/robojo33) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=robojo33) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006948485) Jul-03-07 19:12 PDT 15 of 36 BPM. I have 727 buying feedbacks for silver age comics. I don't mind telling a buyer the provenance of their win.

I also bought from other websites. I filled two original owner collections. One inherited and another bought at a public auction. Once I filled those runs, I kept upgrading and adding to my collection.

I will buy a beautiful restored or trimmed comic if fully disclosed and the price is right. When I sell it I responsibly fully disclose.

I've won dozens of unslabbed comics from different sellers with undisclosed obvious restoration or trimming. Some refunded my money and some refused. Some beat around the bush and then refused. Some never responded. Their identities might surprise you.

I'm back to using my inferior scanner. Except for slabs. I had complaints that it scanned hazy and dark. My new HP scans too bright. Without gradient shadows the depth of the comic is missing.

harriet562 (279 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=harriet562) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/harriet562) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=harriet562) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006948563) Jul-03-07 19:20 PDT 16 of 36 CGC graders are "maroons"? ...say, is that anything like deep purple? I used to have a maroon colored car. My Dad never washed it.
Or did you mean Macaroon..those little cookies made with coconut.
Macaroni and cheese?

thecharltonguy (174 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=thecharltonguy) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/thecharltonguy) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=thecharltonguy) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006949348) Jul-03-07 20:34 PDT 17 of 36 CGC SUPREME GRADER AND GRAND POOBAH STEVE BOROCK:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/maroon-1.jpg

"Hmmmm....these macaroons don't appear to be trimmed or color-touched..."

"I could be wrong though...better ask C.G."
.
.
.
http://72.14.209.104/images/emoticons/happy.gif

CHARLTON COMICS GIVE YOU MORE!!!

robojo33 (404 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=robojo33) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/robojo33) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=robojo33) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006950713) Jul-04-07 00:10 PDT 18 of 36 Charlton guy wrote, "I would be willing to bet you the winning bid amount on that FF 23 that if you contact the owner and ask them to submit it to CGC (hell, I would be happy to pay the submission fee, have them send me a message) that it will come back purple for sure, trimmed for sure."

Now if that's a legitimate offer and you will stand by your word, and honor your wager, I will take that bet under two conditions:

1. You'll suspend bashing any more of my comics until the results are known.

2. If the results are Universal, you'll openly admit right here that you were wrong and won't say, "CGC are maroons. What do they know? They can't tell".

I'm a betting man. So let me offer you a side wager.

You said you "saw alot of trimmed comics in my listings". You identified the Spiderman #33 as positively trimmed, so my offer should be a slam dunk for you.
Let's do a side bet on the Spiderman#33. Same as the FF#24. If it grades purple I pay you the winning bid. If it grades blue, you pay me the winning bid. Same deal. No excuses about CGC "being maroons when it comes to trim".

Whether or not you take the side bet on the #33, I accept your wager on the FF#23. I'll hook it up if you give me the final go ahead.

thecharltonguy (174 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=thecharltonguy) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/thecharltonguy) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=thecharltonguy) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006951261) Jul-04-07 04:56 PDT 19 of 36 LOL!

Alright...here..here...I'l say it:

"CGC AREN'T Maroons!"

"They DO know!"

"They CAN tell!"

There, better?

That takes care of "Condition #2". As for Condition #1"?

I promise that as of this moment, I will stop looking through your books for trim jobs and posting them here. And no more bashing, I promise. Double-pinky promise you.

As for the "side-bet" on the AS 33, I'll pass on that, maybe Stu will take you up on that one.

But I will stick to my word regarding my proposition on the FF 23. You or the buyer can send me the buyer's name and address. I will then send the winning bidder the $30 I estimate it will take to send the book to the Non-Maroons at CGC.

Then we wait and see. By the way, the Purple Label actually has nothing do with it being trimmed. A trimmed book isn't "Restored", it is DESTROYED.

That said, let's go with this: If the book comes back from CGC with the note, "Trimmed", you will pay me the $416 (via PayPal). If it comes back in a Blue Lable,with no notes indicating trimming or restoration of any kind, I will pay you the $416 (also via PayPal).

And I will be happy to apologize up and down and have myself pilloried in the Village Square for two weeks straight.

Sound good?
http://72.14.209.104/images/emoticons/happy.gif

CHARLTON COMICS GIVE YOU MORE!!!

thecharltonguy (174 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=thecharltonguy) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/thecharltonguy) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=thecharltonguy) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006951318) Jul-04-07 05:14 PDT 20 of 36 "Things are heating up in this
Contest of Grading Wills between
Robo-Jojo and The Charlton Guy!"

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/albert.jpg

"We expect a GRAND competition to
ensue, perhaps the most tension-filled
Grading Experience ever to hit the
Ebay Boards!"

"Or will this thread be pulled for multiple
Ebay Policy Violations?"

"The suspense is THICK in here folks!"

"And hey. Where's my hair gloss?"
http://72.14.209.104/images/emoticons/happy.gif

CHARLTON COMICS GIVE YOU MORE!!!

cocky_cpa (184 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=cocky_cpa) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=cocky_cpa) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006951465) Jul-04-07 05:44 PDT 21 of 36 "charltonguy...YESSSSSSSS!"

(Only the sports geeks here will get that one)

bpmcomics (63 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=bpmcomics) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconBlueStar_25x25.gif) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=bpmcomics) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=1009503458) Jul-04-07 11:57 PDT 22 of 36 Well this thread went downhill extremely fast.

robojo33 (404 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=robojo33) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/robojo33) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=robojo33) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006955830) Jul-04-07 14:56 PDT 23 of 36 Charlton Guy wrote; "A trimmed book isn't "Restored", it is DESTROYED".

There were 56 bids from approx. 30 different people on my trimmed Spiderman #1. I disagree with you about trimmed comics being destroyed. That implies they have no value.

The comic sold for $6100;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180132877367&rd=1&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180132877367&rd=1&rd=1)

My double edge trimmed and color touched Spiderman #2 for $660;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180132864904&rd=1&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180132864904&rd=1&rd=1)

TTA#93 with color touch for over $200.

I have two offers for it from buyers who want it if the winner doesn't pay.

I bought these and more like them over the last 4 years. Their work was fully disclosed and they were a bargain.

I bought the Spiderman#1 from a 30 year Overstreet advisor for $2000 three years ago. The right edge trim was disclosed. I learned about the seller's status as an Overstreet advisor later on.

He was a great seller. The comic was everything he promised. It looked like a $50,000 copy. I paid 1/25th the price because 1/32" of the inside pages were neatly cut off on one edge.

I tripled my money. With full disclosure. It was as sound an investment as any CGC 9.4 Universal bought three years ago.

robojo33 (404 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=robojo33) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/robojo33) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=robojo33) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006955929) Jul-04-07 15:10 PDT 24 of 36 Charlton Guy wrote; "That said, let's go with this: If the book comes back from CGC with the note, "Trimmed", you will pay me the $416 (via PayPal). If it comes back in a Blue Lable,with no notes indicating trimming or restoration of any kind, I will pay you the $416 (also via PayPal).

And I will be happy to apologize up and down and have myself pilloried in the Village Square for two weeks straight.

Sound good?"

Sounds good.

I'm officially shaking hands with you on the wager. I'll message you tomorrow and we'll shore up everything.

If anyone else wants in on our FF#23 action or to wager on the Spiderman#33, I'll cover all bets for the auction amount.

robojo33 (404 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=robojo33) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/robojo33) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=robojo33) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006956021) Jul-04-07 15:21 PDT 25 of 36 BPM wrote, "Well this thread went downhill extremely fast."

I disagree. Charlton Guy and I have a gentleman's wager and the chance to prove a point through a neutral expert. What better way to settle it?

I hope others who are sure that the Spiderman#33 and FF#23 are trimmed will also step up to wager and back their opinion like Charlton Guy has.

bpmcomics (63 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=bpmcomics) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconBlueStar_25x25.gif) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=bpmcomics) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=1009505023) Jul-04-07 15:48 PDT 26 of 36 Will you do this for ANY of the books you have or will list? Would you refund purchase price + grading fees (minus shipping costs) if any of them came back restored?

Have you sold any of the books you bought from Richard Koos as unrestored on eBay?

thecharltonguy (174 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=thecharltonguy) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/thecharltonguy) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=thecharltonguy) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006956575) Jul-04-07 16:36 PDT 27 of 36 Excellent!

First off, I commend you on taking me up on this "Gentleman's Wager" and I reciprocate the "handshake" on this end. I look forward to hearing from you tomorrow. I will likely not be able to reply until tomorrow night.

Just to be clear, I will repeat the terms of the wager:

"That said, let's go with this: If the book comes back from CGC with the note, "Trimmed", you will pay me the $416 (via PayPal). If it comes back in a Blue Lable,with no notes indicating trimming or restoration of any kind, I will pay you the $416 (also via PayPal). And I will be happy to apologize up and down and have myself pilloried in the Village Square for two weeks straight."

To sum it up from your end, the book must come back from CGC in a blue label, with no notaion regarding trimming or restoration.

As for the act of trimming itself. I stand firm in my belief that trimming is tantamount to the destruction of a comic book and can not be considered restoration. What is lost can never be regained in this scenario and the book ends up being some Frankenstein-esque parody of a collectible high grade book.

The fact that there is a market for these parodies, regardless of how artfully the trimming was carried out, or how beautiful the result, still does not make up for the loss of the INTEGRITY of the book. In my book, such a book is as worthless as a reprint or a replica. If you are able to profit from such books, if there really is a high end market for these books with informed and discriminating buyers, then all I can do is shake my head. And hell, the entrepeneuer in me says, "power to ya". But it still angers me when a book that was probably exceptional to begin with is tampered with or yes, destroyed, just in order to bump the apparent grade and turn a buck. I am reminded of the seller of high-end antiques in Phillip K. Dick's "The Man in the High Castle", who suddenly discovers that the treasured American antiques that he deals in are actually clever forgeries. If there truly is an up-and-coming market for such hacked and altered comics, then I can't help but see it as the death knell for those of us who appreciate the age, condition (high or low grade), pedigree and HISTORICAL INTEGRITY of vintage comic books. End of rant (for now).

Again, I look forward to hearing from you. I take that the buyer has been informed of this arrangement and is agreeable. Remember, I will be sending the fee for the CGC submission to them, not to you. I will also need a line of communication with them in order to verify the time-line and the result of the CGC submission.

Thanks again for following through on this propostion and I look forward to seeing the results.

Best regards,

The Charlton Guy
http://72.14.209.104/images/emoticons/happy.gif

CHARLTON COMICS GIVE YOU MORE!!!

bnwflix (2722 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=bnwflix) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconRedStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/bnwflix) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/iconStoresNW_20x20.gif (http://stores.ebay.com/id=13184281) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=bnwflix) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006956667) Jul-04-07 16:48 PDT 28 of 36 Philip K. Dick reference, Cool.

thecharltonguy (174 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=thecharltonguy) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/thecharltonguy) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=thecharltonguy) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006956737) Jul-04-07 16:56 PDT 29 of 36 He da man...
http://72.14.209.104/images/emoticons/happy.gif

CHARLTON COMICS GIVE YOU MORE!!!

gotham39 (771 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=gotham39) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconPurpleStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/gotham39) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=gotham39) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=1009505719) Jul-04-07 17:10 PDT 30 of 36 Robojo33 are you Danny Dupcak?

thecharltonguy (174 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=thecharltonguy) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/thecharltonguy) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=thecharltonguy) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006956939) Jul-04-07 17:29 PDT 31 of 36 "Wait a doggone minute! That's my job!"

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/albert.jpg

"Robojo33 are you Danny Dupcak?"

(Ominous strings and french horns resound...)
http://72.14.209.104/images/emoticons/happy.gif

CHARLTON COMICS GIVE YOU MORE!!!

robojo33 (404 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=robojo33) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/robojo33) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=robojo33) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=1009506590) Jul-04-07 19:15 PDT 32 of 36 Charlton Guy wrote, "The fact that there is a market for these parodies, regardless of how artfully the trimming was carried out, or how beautiful the result, still does not make up for the loss of the INTEGRITY of the book. In my book, such a book is as worthless as a reprint or a replica".

Collectors don't agree with you on worthless. An original Shelby Cobra with replacement parts is still worth 5 times the repli-car.

A GRR CGC 9.6 reprint of the Spiderman#1 auctioned for over $2000, twice. 80% of a Honus Wagner T206 baseball card auctioned for over $100,000. The borders were cut off. There were 40 bidders for it in a Mastronet Auction.

Restored and trimmed comics are marketable if the work is disclosed. The buyers decide the market and whats a fair value.


Charlton Guy wrote, "I take that the buyer has been informed of this arrangement and is agreeable".

Not yet. I wasn't sure if you were serious about the bet until several hours ago. Today's the 4th. I'll email him tomorrow, explain the situation and set it up.

thecharltonguy (174 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=thecharltonguy) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/thecharltonguy) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=thecharltonguy) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006957812) Jul-04-07 19:22 PDT 33 of 36 Good luck with that. I hope he's agreeable.

As is typical when talking about altering, restoring, or otherwise messing up a perfectly good collectible, you miss the point (my point anyway). Trimming, un-needed restoration and cosmetic fudging of a comic book is NOT purely an economic decision.

It is (or should be) an ethical and aesthetic one.
http://72.14.209.104/images/emoticons/happy.gif

CHARLTON COMICS GIVE YOU MORE!!!

robojo33 (404 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=robojo33) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/robojo33) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=robojo33) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=1009506688) Jul-04-07 19:27 PDT 34 of 36 Charlton Guy wrote, "Wait a doggone minute! That's my job!
"Robojo33 are you Danny Dupcak? (Ominous strings and french horns resound...)"

No. I'm not. (only the sound of muffled fart)

thecharltonguy (174 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=thecharltonguy) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/thecharltonguy) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=thecharltonguy) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006957903) Jul-04-07 19:34 PDT 35 of 36 I knew you weren't...just playing to the crowd.

Actually, I have a feeling your real name is Percival.
http://72.14.209.104/images/emoticons/happy.gif

CHARLTON COMICS GIVE YOU MORE!!!

robojo33 (404 (http://72.14.209.104/contactUser.jspa?requested=robojo33) http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/IconTealStar_25x25.gif) http://pics.ebay.com/aw/pics/aboutme-small.gif (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/robojo33) View Listings (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=robojo33) | Report (http://72.14.209.104/advise.jspa?threadID=1000520928&messageID=2006958067) Jul-04-07 19:54 PDT 36 of 36 Charlton Guy wrote, "As is typical when talking about altering, restoring, or otherwise messing up a perfectly good collectible, you miss the point (my point anyway). Trimming, un-needed restoration and cosmetic fudging of a comic book is NOT purely an economic decision."


I understand your point and agree with you 100%. I used a professional resto service once. He has an online site.

I won an "unrestored" $4100 VF/NM comic on eBay from a Georgia seller. It was really an FN/VFN with a square inch piece of tape on the inside edge holding a dangling chip in place. He refused a return.

The tape bothered me so I sent it to have the tape removed. It cost $130 to have the tape removed. He got the tape off but made it worse. The whole outline and residue of where the tape had been made much worse. Now you could see from the front cover that the whole area was considerably darkened. You couldn't even see it before from the front cover.

It annoyed me so much that I sold it the next week for $1800 so I do understand. My net loss was about $2500 counting the cost of the comic, tape removal and postage.

The experience didn't turn me off to buying a beautiful comic that had fully disclosed work and was a bargain.

[Hoss]

Click here (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=DVXA,DVXA:2005-04,DVXA:en&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforums.ebay.com%2Fdb1%2Fthr ead.jspa%3FthreadID%3D1000520928%26tstart%3D0%26mo d%3D1183604050745) if you want to see it as it looked on eBay at the time...

[The Charlton Guy]

Thanks Hoss! You da man! #allhailme#

Anybody have page 2?

And I fired an email off to Robojo, hopefully he'll be joining us shortly.

And again, I invite all who participated or were thinking of participating to join us here, where NOTHING will be deleted and Comical-Keys has no report button to fall back on.

The wager is STILL ON!#woohoo#

[mordo]

Good thing the Corral doesn't yank threads. Hoss, you are the coolest!

[Hoss]

I guess Google didn't get around to crawling page 2, CG. :( Hopefully someone else snagged it.

[The Charlton Guy]

Thanks again Hoss, you truly are DA MAN!!!

[The Charlton Guy]

Well as is typical, since the original thread posted by Stu was pulled, I have had two more threads that I started on ebay pulled.

Apparently my little version of "Danny Boy" didn't go over very well with the Trim-Meister.

Man! His report button finger must be SMOKIN!

[bugsy]

Well what can i tell you about Danny Dupcak......Kind, generous, honest, decent, truthful these are just some of the many many words that have NEVER EVER been said about Danny Dupcak. I can tell you about 100 words that HAVE been said about him but this is a family forum and i want to keep this clean. I can tell you 1 thing however and that is he is the biggest crook to unfortunately have graced the comics industry. For those of you who dont know he use to own a Store called Fantasia and he had multipile keys in high grade. If you look at any of the old Fantasia ads in Overstreet you can see what i mean. When he was arrested back in 1997 for scheming to defraud the problem was he still had the restored books. He then came up on ebay as seller comic-keys and sold a ton of restored books advertised as guaranteed unrestored to unsuspecting collectors and it looks like he has now changed his ID to Robojo33 to continue his dirty deed. Now what does Guaranteed unrestored mean i hear you ask yourselves. Well our very own CharltonGuy once gave 5 definitions on one of the funniest auctions i have EVER seen on ebay last year, believe me it was an absolute scream. Now if we all chant his name maybe we can pursuade him to put it up for all too see. Okay i'll start but everybody feel free to join in :-

Charlton, Charlton, Charlton, Charlton, Charlton, Charlton, Charlton, Charlton, Charlton, Charlton, Charlton, Charlton, Charlton, Charlton,

[The Charlton Guy]

LOL!

Alright, here it is.

For some reason, it is still in the ebay archive. Aparently they liked it too.

Thanks Bugsy and enjoy:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6625508627

[fulltimer56]

Your right, CG! It's over a year old and still showing up. They LIKE you!!

Linda

[The Charlton Guy]

Your right, CG! It's over a year old and still showing up. They LIKE you!!

Linda

Wow!

Now that makes two!

Right Hoss?...Hoss?...Hey Hoss?

[marvelguy]

There's a thread over at CGC boards talking about this exact thing. Some of the posters are disappointed that Ebay yanked the thread. If someone has an ID over there, post it there, tell everyone CG is here and posting.

[marvelguy]

BTW, when was the thread pulled? I posted about keeping up with the CGC census last night. I wonder if that tipped the scales a bit.

[The Charlton Guy]

Not likely, there were MULTIPLE ebay posting violations, starting with Stu's initial post. It got hot and heavy fast and violations were flying everywhere. It's really a small miracle that it lasted as long as it did.

I think we were just keeping someone amused, then the fear of profit loss crept in and he started slamming that report button.

[mordo]

I think we were just keeping someone amused, then the fear of profit loss crept in and he started slamming that report button.

I think you hit the nail on the head. It would have been nice, however, if he went through with the bet!

[The Charlton Guy]

Here we go again folks...:D

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250140321221&rd=1&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250140321221&rd=1&rd=1)

[jaydeebee]

CG...you're a heck of a guy.#joker#

Now what about this Donny Crabcake fellow...;)

[The Charlton Guy]

#whack#

[disneyteddies]

Man...I'm glad you're on our side! LoL!

[habib]

As for your dog? Just shoot the bitch and put her out of her misery. Thanks again and best regards, The Charlton Guy.

ROTFLMAO #rofl#......Damn CG.....I about pissed myself when I read that reply in your auction.....Bravo #clap#

[fulltimer56]

Hank is right! Thank God your on our side!! :D

I'm with habib! When I read that I started laughing so hard that Arthur got up out of the living room and came back to my office to see what was wrong!! :lol:

[btdhome]

and the bidding is up to $3.
Knocks me out!

[The Charlton Guy]

REAR COVER SCAN POSTED!!!

HIDE THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!!


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/Detective-306-Back-Cover.jpg

[habib]

REAR COVER SCAN POSTED!!!

HIDE THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!!


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/Detective-306-Back-Cover.jpg

#shock# A big LOL!!!!!!!! #rofl# #rofl# #rofl#

[The Charlton Guy]

#rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl#

#rofl# #rofl# Oh lordy, they pulled it! #rofl# #rofl#


#rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl#


I guess that last update from the O.O.H.S. just went a wee bit too far...imagine that.

#rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# SEE YOU IN GUANTANAMO!!! #rofl# #rofl# #rofl# #rofl#

[The Charlton Guy]

I did manage to save the Q & A portion before it got pulled though...:D

Here's one for posterity...AND I'LL BE BACK!



Question & Answer


Answered On


Q:
I have a question regarding storage of this comic. I am very interested in purchasing it, but unfortunately I am in no position to take possession of it. This might not make sense without me explaining why. I am a professional circus performer and I travel to different cities every week, so as you can see I have no permanent address. I quickly read through your terms, but I don't see anything that would answer my question. I am wondering if after I purchase the comic, if you could store it for me (preferably in an air conditioned room). I only ask that I may have visitation rights as I will probably be visiting your city 3 times each year. I can give you 24 hours notice before I come visit. Thanks! I look forward to any future auctions you may have.


Jul-09-07

A:
No way! Wow! What a coincidence! I worked for the circus for a time too! No need to explain, I know, eating a strict diet of cotton candy, beer and peanuts gets old real fast, doesn't it? What circus do you work with? Not that outfit out of Ashtabula, is it? That would be just WAY too much like synchronicity! I worked with them for most of the 1980's, mainly cleaning up huge piles of dung from the elephant cage. Then I got a big promotion to the Clown Department. Went by the name of Jo-Jo. Do you ever get up to the North-East? Anywhere near Ashtabula? Maybe we could meet up and swap horror stories. As for your proposition, I would very much like to oblige, but I am afraid that I am very quickly running out of room in the Charlton Vault. Way too many comics. Way too many... On top of that, the climate control is costing me a fortune, what with the wind power I'm paying for, and I have resorted lately to having the Charlton Kidlets go out and spin the blades on the windmill all through the night (they do shifts) in order to keep the humidity control and A.C. in the Charlton Vault running properly. That said, as one fellow circus performer to another, I will say YES to your proposition! You snag the book (go ahead and snipe it, but watch out, there's probably lots of other circus performers out there waiting to do the same) and we can touch base. Your name isn't Bo-Bo is it? That would be just way to weird. Good old Bo-Bo... Thanks again for the proposition and best regards, The Charlton Guy

Q:
Greetings my friend I am hoping. Mine name is Itrina I am living on Russia. Here comocs are a signal of great personal finance. If you will like, I can send picture of myself and we can exchange greeting. I am liking Amerika...


Jul-09-07

A:
Jello Itrina and thanks for your interest in my body. I have never seen a Russian comoc book. Are they like ours or do you guys have like Comrade America and Spider-Lenin? Oh wait, I'm sorry, Perestroika has come and gone hasn't it? Those characters are probably SO passe. I like America too. It's a pretty fun place. Land of the free and all. As for your picture, well, I keep reminding people that I am a happily married Charlton Guy, but I keep receiving these weird propositions... I suppose you could forward me your picture. Particularly if you have really big груди! Thanks again and best regards, The Charlton Guy

Q:
Hi, could you please count the pages...I worry about that stuff...and they look a little brown, like they have been in the sun (or chocolate) so...could you please also lick them and let me know how they taste? Thanks, bunches:)!!!


Jul-08-07

A:
Hang on...just a second...o.k? Wait... hang on... One, two, three four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, twenty-one, twenty-two, twenty-three, twenty-four, twenty-five, twenty-six, twenty-seven, twenty-eight, twenty-nine, thirty, thirty-one, THIRTY-TWO! Whew! As for the pages, they are as supple as Paris Hilton's earlobes. And they have not been in the sun. They have spent most of their time inside the exceptional cover you see in the scan. And thanks for the suggestion on the taste test, I never thought of actually tasting a comic book before (well maybe I did) and I just couldn't resist. So I licked a small portion of the J'onn J'onzz story. There's a bunch of giant escaped mutant zoo animal running around in this story, and I picked one of the rhinos for your proposed taste test. And nope. Didn't taste like chocolate at all. More like... like... chicken! Best regards, The Charlton Guy

Q:
Is this a Pedigree copy?


Jul-08-07

A:
Hello and thanks for your interest in this item. This is indeed a Pedigree copy, from the Green Mile High Pedigree collection. I came upon it (sorry about that) early in 1868 when I was shopping for figs at a small street market in Maine. A strange little fellow came up and said that he had some comics for sale. This little feller's name was Hermann P. Grummond. He had once owned a news-stand in Portland, Maine and had a volumnuous warehouse where he had carefully archived five of each comic book ever produced by D.C. comics. He offered me some lobster, I gave him some of my figs, and we struck up a fast and close friendship that lasted until his death in 1983. If not for those figs, I might never have met Hermann, and thus might never have gotten into comic collecting at all. At that time, I much prefered reading old tran station timetables. However, after our fig and lobster snack, he gave me this comic book, which I have since kept and preserved (yes, and pressed, see previous question), and cherished ever since Hermann's passing. So it is with great regret and much nostalgia that I part with this beauty. In case you didn't know, the Green Mile High collection didn't hit the greater comic collecting market until 1997, when Hermann's cousin Ethyl decided it was time to cash in on this rare Pedigree collection so she could buy some new teeth. These Green Mile High books are now cropping up in some of the highest priced comic book showrooms from coast to coast, but as far as I know, this is the only Green Mile High comic that has ever been offered up on ebay. Direct form Hermann P. Grummond to you. With love and nostalgia written all over it. Well... not ACTUALLY written all over it, but you know what I mean. I am sure that if this book is sent to CGC, it would be appropriately noted as a "Green Mile High Collection" Pedigree copy. A book for the ages...sigh... Thanks again and best regards, The Charlton Guy

Q:
Has this comic been pressed?


Jul-08-07

A:
Yes. It has. See? I'm not afraid to disclose any and all work that has been done on this book. But please note, both CGC and a good portion of the greater comic collecting community does NOT consider pressing to be restoration. They are so wise... so wise... Thus, my QUARANTINED UNRESTORED IRON-CLAD GUARANTEE! is still in effect. I love it when that happens! As to the extent of the pressing, it was accomplished as follows: 1) I kept the comic in a long-box that was so tightly packed that you couldn't slip a 2mm plastic shim in there if you tried. 2) I continued the pressing process with the application of a Sunbeam Model 6-F120 steam iron with an intermediary piece of treated acid free paper to ensure that there was no scorching (I hate it when that happens). 3) I took two large 1/2" plates of stainless steel, put the comic in-between them, then ran over it repeatedly in my driveway with my 1992 Fifth Avenue. 4) I then used a Cuisinart Model 360 garlic press to ensure that those razor sharp corners stayed razor sharp. and finally, 5) I put it back in the long-box for one more year until I took it out to scan it for this auction. You couldn't press this baby any flatter if you tried! Should you be lucky enough to be the winning bidder, I would suggest that all of this pressing pedigree would be better verified at a local Dry Cleaners than at CGC, as they turn a blind eye to pressing. They are so wise... so wise... I just LOVE flat comics! Don't you? Thanks for your interest and good luck in your bidding. Best regards, The Charlton Guy

Q:
I have been looking through my copy of Overstreet and cannot find the "SUPER-DUPER-GEM-MINT-PLUS! WITH A CHERRY ON TOP!(Cherry not included)" designation on the grading scale. Is this a newly created grade? Where does it fall on the 10-point scale?


Jul-08-07

A:
Did you buy the hard-bound copy or were you a cheapskate and get the soft-bound edition? The 2007 soft-bound edition is aseriously editied down and already outdated. My HARD-BOUND 2007 Overstreet states that the SUPER-DUPER-GEM-MINT+ WITH A CHERRY ON TOP (Cherry notincluded) grade is reserved for only an elite handful of comic books. NOT to be given lightly. As far as a numerical equivilent? We're talkin' a 15.0 here. Nice, huh? Thanks and best regards, The Charlton Guy

Q:
What are comics?


Jul-08-07

A:
A comic is an object. Now, between you and I, do ebay comic auctions really exist? Do comics, you, me, and the cat or the aardvark really exist outside our minds? Are comic auctions an illusion? Have you ever thought you saw a comic auction, but there was nothing really there? Have you ever thought you saw a comic auction (say a nice copy of Scary Tales #3) in the corner of your eye, and when you looked there was no comic there? Have you ever looked at comic book art and been deceived that one line was longer than the other, but really it wasn't? When you look down from a high building on a person reading a comic and they appear small like and ant? Aren't there thousands of occasions when we think we see a comic auction but we don’t? If we are wrong on some occasions, for example, from a height people reading comics look the size of Antman, is it not possible that we are always deceived? Logical necessity requires the answer: Yes. It is possible that ebay comic auctions as we perceive them are not that way at all! So, how do we really respond to a comic auction? Don't we respond only to the electrical and chemical events that occur in the brain and nerves, and not to the alleged comic itself? Therefore, it is not comic auctions we are experiencing but chemical and electrical reactions. Likewise, we don't see ebay comic auctions directly. We see via chemical and electrical reactions in eyes, nerves and bits of brain. This appears to be true because: 1) Without ebay, we don't bid. 2) Without comics we don't read comics. 3) Without certain bits of the brain, we don't see ebay comic auctions at all. So we never directly see what comics or auctions are out there, according to science. So how do we know that the comic auctions we see are real? Suppose someone were to put electrodes in our brains and stimulate the visual part of our brains mimicking the impulses we normally receive when we bid on ebay comic auctions. Would we really see the auction? Definitely we would.

Q:
Does this comic come with an acid free bag and backing board? If so, would I be able to purchas said bag and board either as a set or individualy? As you know original bags and boards are quickly becoming a sound investment platform with a predicted return of 40-50% over the next five years. I personally have a collection of over 500 bags and boards in VF-NM shape, some dating back to the early / mid nineties. These bags and boards are in turn stored individually in NOS (new old stock) bags and boards in a humidity controlled safe room. I don't need to tell you, Charlton Guy ,that these items are the collectables of the future. Also looking for vintage storage boxes (pre 1985 ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!), discarded wants lists and assorted plastic bags that have been used to carry comics home from conventions. Also on the look out for bits of scotch tape used to seal comic bags (Extemely rare) these of course must come with documentation.


Jul-08-07

A:
That's one hell of a hobby you have going there. Power to ya. Best regards, The Charlton Guy

Q:
That is one sweet book with razor sharp edges but what gives with that bottom left corner? I have been scammed on eBay in the past with undisclosed work> You seem to be an honorable fellow so I doubt you would have done anything to this gem? Was that bottom left corner altered?


Jul-08-07

A:
Hello and thanks for your interest in this item. I had my doubts about that bottom left corner too. I went kind of back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, trying to decide if that particular corner detracted at all from the stated SUPER-DUPER-GEMMINT+ WITH A CHERRY ON TOP (Cherry not Included) grade. I have looked at that corner once, twice, three times, maybe more. And I still can't make up my mind, but I am leaning toward keeping the stated grade as is, Yes, there is a bit of what you could call a "bad spot" to that particular corner, but I wouldn't let that stop you from bidding on and hopefully acquiring, one of the highest grade Silver Age Detective Comics Gems out there on the market. Just so there is not one shadow-of-a-doubt, I will very soonly update the auction description and include a high-res scan of the corner in question. I do concur, it is somewhat of a "bad spot", but in my mind (and what a mind it is...), it does not significantly detract from what is otherwise perhaps the finest example of this comic known to man (or woman... can't leave them out...). Hang in there, the scan and update are coming up soon. Thanks again and best regards, The Charlton Guy.

Q:
Yes hi..first time caller..long time listener..do you have a payment plan? I'm not sure we could manage the 27 cents all at once but we're VERY interested in the item?


Jul-08-07

A:
Hello and thanks for your interest in this item. I understand that PeePal has a payment plan available, with a very reasonable 43% interest. If you use this plan, I get paid right away and you pay in installments for...well...basically forever. This is perfectly acceptable, but please note, you will HAVE to do this through PeePal, I don't want pennies showing up in my mail like every other week. Thanks again and best regards, The Charlton Guy.

Q:
Hey, that top right corner with the number looks pretty messed up. It looks like it might have been patched or something too. What's up with that Mr. Guaranteed Unrestored?


Jul-07-07

A:
Wait a doggone minute, take a closer look Mr. Myopia... And you tell me, is that not the sharpest corner you have ever seen on a Silver Age book? You could poke your eye out looking at that sucker! And yeah, go ahead, call me "Mr. Guaranteed Unrestored. I kind of like the ring of that. And I tell you what... hang in there for a few minutes and I'll scan the inside of the cover so you can see just how razor-sharp that sucker is. Wait just a few minutes. I'll be right back... look in the description, you'll see it there soon. In just a few minutes...

Q:
Hey guy, I notice you accept most forms of payment, a savvy business man no doubt, but I have a really cool proposal: Could I pay for this auction with manure? I live on a farm and lord knows we can really pile it up if you know what I mean, anyway, manure is very expensive if you buy it at the store and I thought I could truck a whole mess of the stuff over to your place and sort of barter a deal with ya? What do you think? I'm an idea guy, so this idea is just one of many, please let me know ASAP so I can gas up the ole pooper truck.


Jul-07-07

A:
Look dude, I live in cow country. Manure I got. You want to barter? Head on down to the Farmer's Market and trade it in on some corn or something. There's more than enough manure around here on ebay already. Thanks for the offer though. Best regards, The Charlton Guy

Q:
This book looks like it might be restored. Will you be willing to have it verified by a third paty service [CGC] and accept returns if it comes back restored?


Jul-07-07

A:
Hello and thanks for your interest in this item. As far as I know, the Paty the Thrrd died in like 1987. Get with the program dude!

Q:
If I pay extra can I get the cherry?


Jul-07-07

A:
Hmmmm...I figured that was coming... I hesitated to include the cherry in this offer because those nasty marichiano cherries would likely make a total sticky mess all over what is an otherwise immaculate cover. But should you win, I will consider it and try and come up with an appropriate price. Thanks and best regards, The Charlton Guy

Q:
Dear Charlton Guy, My Husband doesn't even like comics and I was wondering if you were married because with my love of comics and your artistic talents and business savy, we could possibly make a good couple. Imagine living in Hawaii six months a year during the winter and you could just mail you works of art to some lacky to do the whole e-bay thang while we get plastered having fun in the sun. Most e-bayers buyers won't know you might have done a tiny bit of work to the odd book and I can see the dollar signs now. We could even shill bid on items that go over 200.00 because e-bay has made it easier for us to cheat and jack up our auctions. That was jack up and not jack off. Let me know what you think, Thank you very much, Fay


Jul-07-07

A:
Hello Fay and thanks for your interest in my artistic talents and business savy, though I am not sure how you could know that (about my artistic abilities that is). Uncanny... I must say, I am happily married, with lots of Charlton Kidlets running around, but man, you make one heck of a tempting tempting offer. Hawaii? Isn't that where all the bread-fruit grows? I LOVE bread-fruit! And though some day down the road, I do hope to hand over the mantle on my Charlton Guy Enterprises, I don't expect it will be anytime soon. As for shill bidders and that $200 concealed bidder thing, hang in there, this Silver Age GUARANTEED UNRESTORED GEM is going to go through the ROOF! I can feel it in the air, can't you? Then all those joy-bidders can REALLY go nuts! I myself, do not use, or have the need for shill bidders. A rather nasty practice, that. I prefer to just plod along at my own Charlton Guy pace. And I'm not nuch into jacking up these days... I have a bad back. Thanks again for your generous offer and best regards, The Charlton Guy

Q:
Hi CHARLTON GUY! Is there any way you can trim and or color touch this item if I win it? You know, pretty it up for me before you ship it? Like a lot of people, appearances mean more to me than substance. Even a good pressing would suffice. Thanks in advance!


Jul-07-07

A:
Now there's an idea! Let me mull it over a bit... hmmm... some trimming... sharper corners...some color-touch... better eye appeal... I wonder if they have color touch kits at Walmart?... I sold my old pinking shears... hmmm... but I do have some other scissors around here somewhere...what about an exacto blade?... I bet they have those at Walmart too!... no... wait a minute... Walmart stopped selling exacto blades so the little kiddies wouldn't chop their fingers off in their store... hmmm.. could mean more profit for me... mmmmm... Profit!... welllll... I'll think about it. That's all I can say for now. As for pressing, after that incident with the Judge and his pants, I'll never set foot in another Dry Cleaner's again! Forget about it! Thanks for the idea and best regards, The Charlton Guy

Q:
Got any others like these you could include in the shipment? I'll buy them all. Also, would you, please, drop-ship this to CGC in Sarasota? Don't send them to me. I'll leave instructions at CGC that if it's not at least a 9.8 blue label, then they are to bill you. N'kay? THX. Sincerely, Louis James


Jul-07-07

A:
Watch it buster! Trying to make deals outside the officially sanctioned febay sysem is strictly prohibited! You'll just have to wait your turn like everyone else. And where the heck is Sarasota? Is that anywhere near Ashtabula? I have a cousin who lives in Ashtabula. Cousin Hoss. As for me sending the book directly to CGC? NO DICE! It is up to the winning bidder to send the book of to the Professionals at CGC, then they can send me the bill for the submittal fee and shipping charges, at which point I will reimburse them IMMEDIATELY via PayPal or another suitable payment system. Again, it is up to the buyer to challenge the THE CHARLTON GUY QUARANTEED UNRESTORED IRON-CLAD GUARANTEE! I sure as heck ain't going to challenge myself! That would be...like...too weird! Thanks and best regards, The Charlton Guy

Q:
Can you explain more about the THE CHARLTON GUY QUARANTEED UNRESTORED IRON-CLAD GUARANTEE! I had a dog that needed to be quaranteed. The Vet said he had the Rabeys real bad and we couldn't play with him no more. By brother told me to stay away from old Bill, that was my dog, but I could not do it. We were tight. OK, back to the quaranty, who actually verifies the quaranty, is that a fourth party company?


Jul-07-07

A:
Hello and thanks for your interest in this item. THE CHARLTON GUY QUARANTEED UNRESTORED IRON-CLAD GUARANTEE! really needs no further explanation, but I LOVE explaining things, so here we go again: 1) THE CHARLTON GUY QUARANTEED UNRESTORED IRON-CLAD GUARANTEE! means that you can rest assured that should CGC discover that this book has been restored or monkeyed with in any way, I will issue a full refund for the winning bid and associated shipping fees. 2) If the winning bidder is finds that this comic does not live up to its SUPER-DUPER-GEM-MINT+ WITH A CHERRY ON TOP (No cherry included) grade after being professionally graded by the good fella at CGC, I will also be happy to issue a full refund. 3) If the winning bidder is a happless sucker who can't tell his behind from a rewind, and chooses NOT to send the book to CGC for grading and restoration detection, I will be happy to keep all the money from the outcome of the auction and invest it wisely (in Charlton comics). As for a 'Fourth Party" grader getting it involved? Well, I suppose that after going to CGC, the winner could then send it off to PGX for Fourth Party verification, but then ALLBETS WOULD BE OFF, because I have it on very good authority that a second-cousin-twice-removed from the sister of the friend of the owner of PGX has a nasty habit of trimming books himself! (I won't name any names...). As for your dog? Just shoot the bitch and put her out of her misery. Thanks again and best regards, The Charlton Guy.

Q:
Hey Charlton Guy, I know the book is NOT restored because you guarantee it as such, but what if a third party finds that the book is tampered with, would I be able to get a full refund? The last thing I want is a surprise! Do you 1000% stand behind you no restoration guarantee or is it just words in the auction to fill up time and space?


Jul-07-07

A:
Hello and thanks for your interest in this item. Look, we're not talking about just any old Guarantee here, we're talkin' THE CHARLTON GUY QUARANTEED UNRESTORED IRON-CLAD GUARANTEE! As it says in the description (didn't you read it? I know, it takes a while), I am willing, no, I am JUST DYIN' to have the winning bidder send this book off to CGC to be graded. Should the book come back with anything other than a blue label, I WILL REFUND YOUR WINNING BIDAND SHIPPING FEES IN FULL! And get this: I WILL PAY FOR THE CGC SUBMITTAL FEE! (As it says in the auction description). So rest your worried mind, sit back and relax, and BID! Don't let this one slip through your fingers! Best regards, The Charlton Guy

Q:
Do you accept cash?


Jul-07-07

A:
If you can fit a quarter and two pennies in a USPS approved envelope, that will be fine. If the bidding should get into the hundreds (as I fully expect it to), you should probably stick to a money order or PayPal. If the bidding hits the thousands (hey, one never knows), I would recommend PayPal payment only, in the off chance that you should take me up on my GUARANTEED UNRESTORED Charlton Guy Guarantee. But I have never had to do a return yet, and I dare say you will NOT be disappointed in this GUARANTEED UNRESTORED Silver Age Gem! Good bidding and best regards, The Charlton Guy.

[mordo]

Charlton Guy, you should be writing for SNL or Late Night. We're lucky to have you here. :)

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:XV97IcJEf_QJ:cgi.ebay.com/BATMAN-1-DETECTIVE-COMICS-MASTERPIECE-Only-27-Cents_W0QQitemZ250140321221QQcmdZViewItem+ebay+250 140321221+charlton+guy&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

[marvelguy]

Charlton Guy, you should be writing for SNL or Late Night. We're lucky to have you here. :)

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:XV97IcJEf_QJ:cgi.ebay.com/BATMAN-1-DETECTIVE-COMICS-MASTERPIECE-Only-27-Cents_W0QQitemZ250140321221QQcmdZViewItem+ebay+250 140321221+charlton+guy&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us


Heck, CG can wite his own comics! He has the skills to pay the bills. Think about it, he can create his own masterpieces and publish it with Avatar Press.

[marvelguy]

REAR COVER SCAN POSTED!!!



HIDE THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!!



http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/Detective-306-Back-Cover.jpg


Now that is an original piece. Good point of view, CG.

[The Charlton Guy]

Oh hell, I can't resist:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/CAYV0XEB.png


And yeah, I relisted it:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250141694428&rd=1&rd=1

#banana2# So fire those questions off people!!!! #banana2#

[habib]

Question sent.... :D

[The Charlton Guy]

Thanks!

You Hoosier you...

[StlComics]

Utoh... It seems to have been removed... :roll:

[The Charlton Guy]

Hey James!

No, not yet...:D

It's a relist:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250141694428&rd=1&rd=1

And this time, I'm playin' by THE FEEBAY BOOK!

Inside cover scan coming up shortly...:D

[habib]

Thanks!

You Hoosier you...

Ah....the curse of living in Indiana :D

[StlComics]

Hey James!

No, not yet...:D

It's a relist:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250141694428&rd=1&rd=1

And this time, I'm playin' by THE FEEBAY BOOK!

Inside cover scan coming up shortly...:D


http://www.dreamstarlets.com/features/!bios/heather_orourke22.jpg

"He's baaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaack..."



:D

[bugsy]

Hey CG your purple line goes past Floral park. You might want to bring it back a tad. Also how did you find out where Perry Stroud lives?

[The Charlton Guy]

Hey CG your purple line goes past Floral park. You might want to bring it back a tad. Also how did you find out where Perry Stroud lives?

Hey Bugsy! Welcome to the Corral!

So let's call it 4.2 miles...

Specifics coming soon, but not from me (at this time, for now, biting my tongue, chomping at the bit, like us "horsey people" do...).

Best regards,

C.G.

[The Charlton Guy]

Well, I take that back.

I will tell you what I know.

I don't mean to be "The Mysterious Guy" here.

Shortly after my little back-and-forth with ebay seller Robojo33 on the ebay thread, he (he being the self-proclaimed Perry Stroud) started emailing me in the hope of continuing our little "wager". It became immediately evident that I was not conversing with "Perry Stroud" but with Danny Dupcak.

I can best sum it up by saying that the conversation went nowhere fast.

Since that time I have received numerous emails verifying names, addresses, buying and selling information, scans, personal and confidential information and various other evidence that make it clear that "Robojo33"/Perry Stroud is actually Danny Dupcak.

I do have more specifics, but I have been asked to keep them private by some other interested parties.

I understand. And I will do so.

I will do so because, and only because, I understand that there are other people who are perhaps more worked up than I am and who have decidedly more of a personal and financial interest in seeing him come to justice. And I respect that.

But come on guys, the cat is out of the bag.

You can contact me directly at:

thecharltonguy@yahoo.com

Thanks and best regards,

C.G.

[OldGuy]

http://www.justafanboy.com/ComicKeys/

[bugsy]

Maybe i am being thick here but apart from proving that a Perry Stroud does not exist and this is in fact Richard Koos and has told a lie what can be done.

[The Charlton Guy]

Hello again gang,

It appears that our newest Member, "AceVentura" is Mr. Dupcak himself!

Welcome to "horsey people" Land Dan the Man!

I can't wait to have your input on this thread.

I'm absolutely chompin' at the bit!

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/chompin.jpg

In fact, I'll be happy to sit back and keep my big mouth reined in if you would grace us with a post or two.

And by all means, feel free to put me in my place.

Hell, everybody else and their jockey does.

[OldGuy]

Again, feel free to contact me at any time, with any information you may have, at:

thehcarltonguy@yahoo.com

Thanks and best regards,

C.G.

I got this when I tired to e-mail you:

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

thehcarltonguy@yahoo.com

[jaydeebee]

thehcarltonguy@yahoo.com

I believe there is a spelling error in that email addy, try dropping the "h" after "the" and before "charltonguy" ;)

[The Charlton Guy]

Oh lordy....

Me and my typos...


It's:

thecharltonguy@yahoo.com

Try again OldGuy, I look forward to hearing from you.

[The Charlton Guy]

"This is not good...not good at all.



http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/Paint-Dry.jpg

"My calculations show me that this paint may never dry..."

[AceVentura]

Still didn't get an activation link and I have limited access to functions here. Why you are telling people that I'm using that as an excuse not to post, I have no idea.

Now I have registered with two names and two different emails. Neither has received activation codes. Do you want people to post here or not?

[Hoss]

Hi Ace. I manually activated both of the accounts so you (as you can see) are free to post.

I'll close down the other account since you will only need the one.

Sometimes users with your ISP have trouble getting my activation emails, sorry about the extra hassles.

Anyway, welcome to the Corral!

Hoss

[AceVentura]

First off, I won't even bother to say I'm Richard because everybody's conviced that Richard, Perry, and Danny are all the same person. And proving that would be one hell of a neat trick. First, you'd either need some type of heavy duty compactor or a magic wand to make that happen.

Where to begin on this mountain of accusations. Oh. I know! First, a shout out to Old Guy for posting that West Hempstead address. Good job. Sometime during the night or early morning following the posting of that address, someone snuck into the backyard and poured a sizable amount of bleach and ammonia into a small backyard pond, effectively killing 45 goldfish.

I guess the fish and I deserved it, and that's a good start, right? Thank you, Old Guy!

So let's talk about "all of these ripped off people". Let's start with these poor, lost souls. Who are these people? How were they ripped off?

Are these the people listed in the testimonial section of OldGuy's CGC financed CK hate site? The people that received a prompt refund if there was a problem with a purchase from Comic-Keys?

I can't help but notice that each and every one of them was offered and given a full refund if a problem was discovered with their raw purchase. There's even one there who didn't ask for a refund becuase he thought none would be given, and when I learned of the problem, I contacted him to offer and effect a refund.

Are these the people that were ripped off? These folks in the testimonial section and others not in that section that are given a full refund if there's a problem with a raw purchase regardless of how much time has gone by? Or are there more people aside from them?

I've bought books from Ebay sellers with undisclosed work that basically told me to go fuck myself when I wanted a refund because there was resto on a raw purchase. Is that a rip off or not a rip off, because I'm currently unclear on the hobby definition of a rip off.

So let's establish a "rip-off" baseline or threshold.

Was it a rip off when CGC missed the Ewert trim jobs on about 1000 submissions over several years? Or is that an honest mistake made over and over again, 999 times?

Is it an automatic rip off if a seller other than Comic-Keys sends a restored book to someone? Or is that an honest mistake? How about if he refuses to take it back? Still an honest mistake?

How about if the same seller resells the same book as unrestored again on Ebay if he does take it back? Other than Keys of course. Just a mistake?

How about all the books mentioned in the 258 pages of the Manufactured Gold thread. The ones that change grades for the better after Matt Nelson and Chris Friesen put them through their paces. Is that a rip off? Or is it only a rip off if the buyer sees an old scan of his 9.2 from when it was a 4.5? Then is it a rip off? Or is it still not a rip-off because it's "good" restoration as opposed to "bad" restoration? Did any of those people get their money back?

How about all the other countless books in the Heritage permanent auction archives that "Hammer" pointed out on different forums over about 2 years? Are those all rip-offs? Or only a rip off if the buyer finds the old scan and makes the connection about what he really bought? Anybody remember those old posts? I have them all saved for a rainy day. If anyone would like their memory refreshed, just ask.

And how about the Sotheby's and Christie's books. The ones that graded CGC purple 5 to 10 years after they were bought as unrestored? Is that a rip off? If so, since those grading panels were made up of all Overstreet advisors is it still a rip-off? Did those people get their money back?

See, we have to define what a rip off in this hobby actually is, what constitutes being "ripped off" before we can even begin to seriously discuss and apply it.

By my definition, if people pay someone for a raw, guaranteed book, and it doesn't perform as expected, and they request a return/refund, and get it, I just can't understand that chain of events as a "rip-off" or "destruction of a hobby".

Let's talk about Ewert for a moment. Here we have a case where a substantial amount, more than anyone would care to admit or fully even suspects, of trimmed and massaged books were passed through CGC. Just a mistake, right?

Let's include PGX in discussing the Ewert scenario for a moment. I recall OldGuy posting a website about the trimmed books that made it into PGX holders but we never did see a website from OldGuy about Ewert, did we? Someone who is so diligent a watchdog as to report any sense of wrongdoing in the hobby should have had a website up and running the week the scandal broke, right? Why didn't he? Any guesses? Anyone?

OldGuy went through great efforts to slam Keys and PGX as hard as possible, because it was in CGC's best interests to do that, but Ewert got a free pass. And Ewert was the one that was caught dead to rights, not only with the trimmed submissions but with the purchase records of the books that he trimmed or had trimmed and pushed through CGC. Every possible legal requirement to absolutely prove and convict for fraud was there for the asking in the Ewert case. A DA's wet dream. I'll recap it once again:

1)Ewert buys books from Heritage. Scans are part of archives. "Before-photo" evidence.

2)Ewert takes possession of books

3)Books submitted by Ewert to CGC (now trimmed) and returned to Ewert.

4)Ewert puts books on Ebay and other sites ("After-photo" evidence).

5)Buyer gets trimmed books

Everything necessary to convict in civil court and criminal court. And nothing came of it, right?

Anybody realize that? This guy was caught dead to rights. There were records and scans of the books he was buying from Heritage and submitting to CGC after they were trimmed, without a middle man! From Heritage to Ewert to CGC, back to Ewert, and then to a victim who got (sorry to say it) "ripped off". Unless it's not a rip-off because they were only trimmed a little and they were in CGC legitimizing slabs.

That never happened with Keys, has it? Keys never bought a verifiably traceable book anywhere, from any source that turned up trimmed as verified by before and after scans and sales records, did he?

What went wrong with what should have been an EZ case against Ewert? Three lawyers were working on it, right? Should have been an easy, open and shut case. Borock was incensed, right? That his pal should pull a fast one like that on CGC and leave their collective macaroons out in the wind. Borock made his ultimatums and everybody cheered Borock for singlehandedly running Ewert out of the hobby (yeah. so you all think he's out!).

One thing that went wrong was that Heritage wouldn't release the sales records. The purchases made by Ewert. Not even to CGC (even though Heritage owns CGC). That's like your left hand refusing to turn something over to your right hand! And there's not a damned thing you can do about it! :rolleyes:

Another thing that went wrong is that the three lawyers trying to connect Ewert to these books and refunds due are all CGC slab collectors themselves, and if folks take too close a look and CGC takes a broadside hit because ALL is known, they could have watched the value of their slabbed books diminish day by day. Everybody had to tread very lightly on this caper! Too much to lose. Was this all a huge organized rip-off or just the work of one culpable party?

So what I'm trying to do is establish a definition of rip-off before we even begin to discuss just how Keys has "ripped everybody off" by issuing a refund if and when there's a problem with a raw book.

I figured we'd start with this and then later we can discuss how three separate people, all with their own birth certificates, social security numbers, (and their own separate bodies) can all be the same person. Yeah, I know. We all use alot of the same words. They're the same words everybody else in the hobby uses. And we can spell. That certainly narrows it down. We must all be the "same guy", right?

[AceVentura]

Hi Ace. I manually activated both of the accounts so you (as you can see) are free to post.

I'll close down the other account since you will only need the one.

Sometimes users with your ISP have trouble getting my activation emails, sorry about the extra hassles.

Anyway, welcome to the Corral!

Hoss

Thank you, Hoss. I had tried to register again from another computer thinking that maybe a spam filter was prventing me from getting the email. It works fine now. Thanks again!

Here I am you beeyatches, come and get me!#allhailme#

[The Charlton Guy]

Welcome on board whoever you are! #hello#

This identity thing is all so confusing. I hope to make some sense of it later tonight, but for now, it's time for C.G. to get to the cheese factory.

And you missed one big "What about".

"What about" the buyers who pay for one of your undisclossed trimmed/restored books who believe that they have an unrestored high grade investment quality book in their collection?

"What about" when they find out 2, 5, 10, 20 years down the line?

I know, you'll be happy to issue them a full refund. That's just great.


And I'm sorry about your goldfish, I really am. I never meant for any innocent bystanders to get hurt in this fracus.

[AceVentura]

Welcome on board whoever you are! #hello#


"What about" the buyers who pay for one of your undisclossed trimmed/restored books who believe that they have an unrestored high grade investment quality book in their collection?

"What about" when they find out 2, 5, 10, 20 years down the line?

I know, you'll be happy to issue them a full refund. That's just great.



And yes it is great, isn't it? Will all sellers of high ticket raw books do that? I don't think so. Maybe for an hour, maybe for a day, maybe for a week but not for always.

How about another "what about"?

How about when you crack out a CGC Universal 9.6 Spiderman #33 (no, not the one that Robojo33 listed... I already hear the gears grinding) at the behest of the consignor, offer it as a raw 9.9 because it's really flawless, then the buyer sends it to Sue Ciccone instead of CGC for a restoration check, Sue finds that it's had disassembly pressing and some other things done to it and then the buyer returns it for a refund?

Can't happen, you say? I can assure you that it can, does, and did happen!

How about if you have to make a refund to the buyer on it and your consignor stiffs you for the return because you already paid him for the sale and you're out $900? Is that a rip-off? If so, who ripped off who? Did I rip off the buyer? Or did the consignor rip me off? Or did CGC rip off everybody with their error that they're getting paid not to make that Sue got paid to catch and did?

You're focusing too hard on me with raw book sales. If people don't ever want to hear about someone buying a book with undisclosed resto, and want to grab the pitchforks, the rope, and form a lynchmob when it happens, they need to outlaw selling raw books and then put blind faith in all of CGC's gradings, like most do anyway, although that isn't always much of a guarantee of anything either, is it? Other than it's guaranteed to be a real comic and to have been looked at by three graders. It's guarantee to get a restoration check, but get this, they don't guarantee the opinion or the restoration check process. Just that a check was made. Like on the 9.6 blue Spiderman #33 that Sue found work on, and Ewert's books, and the books from the Manufactured Gold thread, and the books...., and..., etc., etc.

You see, people aren't seeing the forest for the trees. Raw books immediately come under suspicion. They're put under the microscope, the book and the seller. Scrutinized carefully. The books that have already been blue labeled aren't suspected at all, right? Even if it's an early Silver age Marvel that's so small, it fits comfortably in a modern well! And they remain above suspicion until you make the mistake of cracking one out and sending it to Sue for evaluation and then find out that you opened Pandora's box instead of a blue label slab. Those are the ones that can hurt you. Who do you get your money back from when that happens? Or is that not a rip off? Or did you rip yourself off by cracking open the slab?

It doesn't happen often but you wait and see. If you want to project 5, 10, 20, 50 years into the future, then lets. What happens when there's a real, viable, respected second comic grading service and same like in coins and cards, collectors start cross submitting between CGC and "GCG" because there's financial incentive to crack and cross submit.

Do you know what's going to happen? It's going to be like the night of the living dead! Like if Sue were to get her hands on the 900,000 blue label books that CGC has passed and put them under her scrutiny. Then you'd see some shit that would stampede people in this hobby to the suicide hotlines in droves. Just the ones that don't get rid of the hot-potatoes before word gets out. And of course, it wouldn't get out that fast because people would be pre-occupied with whether or not a raw seller is offering a comic with undisclosed trim that really isn't trimmed at all. It'd be like post WW1 Germany in this hobby. Atonal music would make a comeback. You could relive the 1980s and buy that high grade AF 15 for $1000 again.
It'd be just like what happened to coins in the 1990s!

You and others talk like I'm the only seller of a raw comic in the world that ever had to make a refund. At least I make refunds without a time limit. You know how many tweaked books I see on Ebay and other sites on a weekly basis? Raw, slabbed, some so obvious that I'm embarrassed for the seller and the ones bidding on it, some done real well?

The difference here is that if I get an email stating a problem, I take care of it immediately, not later, and anyone who says differently is just flat out full of shit.

[The Charlton Guy]

The difference here is that if I get an email stating a problem, I take care of it immediately, not later, and anyone who says differently is just flat out full of shit.

Funny you mention that, because there happens to be a Corral Member here who tells me that he was stiffed to the tune of thousands on one of your "Guaranteed Refund" auctions. He did say that you issued a partial refund, but then communication ceased and he ended up severely stiffed.

I will leave it to this Member to come forward and question you directly, but let me ask you this: If he does, and states his case, will you be willing to work through the rest of his "Refund" process?

[AceVentura]

Funny you mention that, because there happens to be a Corral Member here who tells me that he was stiffed to the tune of thousands on one of your "Guaranteed Refund" auctions. He did say that you issued a partial refund, but then communication ceased and he ended up severely stiffed.

I will leave it to this Member to come forward and question you directly, but let me ask you this: If he does, and states his case, will you be willing to work through the rest of his "Refund" process?

Of course. I'll have all records of his purchases and refunds made if he identifies himself. Although, I have to tell you, the idea of my ignoring somebody that either returned something or had something to return sounds pretty fishy.

[The Charlton Guy]

Of course. I'll have all records of his purchases and refunds made if he identifies himself. Although, I have to tell you, the idea of my ignoring somebody that either returned something or had something to return sounds pretty fishy.


Good. That sounds promising.

Again, I leave it to this Member to either wade in to this thread (I would suggest this) or contact you directly and post the results.

As for sounding fishy? I tend to agree with you until this Member does speak up. We shall see.

I too encourage everybody to put their money where their mouth is.

[bugsy]

First of all my brother is on holiday so im going to have to rely on all the information i have to hand and seeing as im the one that introduced comical-keys and my brother i still know quite a lot. So where do you want to start. I know lets start with the Amazing Fantasy #15. I'll post a scan first and then we can go into full details. I'll let everyone decide wether they can see if this has been restored or not. It is getting late here however so i might have to continue this tomorrow.


http://www.comicscorral.com/forums/CID:{B45CB561-6293-404D-A129-ECEBA39F1D8A}/15AFnmmt.jpg

[Blufalkn2]

Pish-posh!

I just got done reading those exhaustive posts and all I have to say is....OK nothing to say. Just trying to break the monotany.

But bleached goldfish? Now that's just wrong. I don't think they can even read a comic book. Can they?

Aloha

[The Charlton Guy]

Bugsy, your image isn't showing up.

I downloaded it and will post it for you. It may be downsized a bit from your original due to the limits of my photo-hosting service:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/15AFnmmt.jpg

I'll be back in a bit...gotta dredge the basement...

[AceVentura]

First of all my brother is on holiday so im going to have to rely on all the information i have to hand and seeing as im the one that introduced comical-keys and my brother i still know quite a lot. So where do you want to start. I know lets start with the Amazing Fantasy #15. I'll post a scan first and then we can go into full details. I'll let everyone decide wether they can see if this has been restored or not. It is getting late here however so i might have to continue this tomorrow.


http://www.comicscorral.com/forums/CID:{B45CB561-6293-404D-A129-ECEBA39F1D8A}/15AFnmmt.jpg

Great idea! We're going to definitively tell from a scan if a comic is restored, right?

And while Turhan Mustafa is dredging up his basement, I'm going to dredge mine and be prepared to show all unabridged emails between Turhan, his brother Ilkin, and me. Including the extortion attempt emails that Turhan sent demanding an additional $150,000 for the AF#15, 6 months after his brother's chosen remedy (a complete refund) was made. That's right, 6 months after his brother Ilkin had returned the books, chosen his remedy, and been paid back, Turhan got involved and DEMANDED a $150,000 paydday, or he would go to the authorities, ruin me in the hobby, and call down other fire and brimstone upon me, over books that had already been completely refunded.

I'll bet you didn't know that, CG. I know you like wagering it seems. I'll bet you that yor pal Buggsy never confided in you ANY of that, right? Pesky little things like ALL the details and the other side of the story which were "complacently" undisclosed. To you, it was just another CK horror story and you were all too glad to "complacently" listen and accept without even doubting the validity of the story.

You see, Turhan is an extortionist. That's the only word I know for it. The fact that I ignored his extortion threats doesn't mean that he didn't try. The fact that it's me he attempted to extort from doesn't change the fact that it's a crime. There aren't any exclusionary clauses in the legal statutes stipulating that it's OK to commit crimes against CK because he's not well liked. Just like the fact that whose goldfish were killed doesn't mean that it's not a sin to kill animals to get back at somebody for something whether real or imagined.

I have all the emails complete with headers to back everything up. Wouldn't state it if I didn't. I also have paypal records to show that each and every penny that his brother Ilkin paid me for 4 comics that he returned was fully reimbursed and his claims of more refunds due on those 4 books, which were the only ones Ilkin purchased from me, are total bullshit.

His extortion demands for an additional $150,000 after the deal was fully reversed aren't bullshit, however. That part is very real and a real crime.

I might add that he and his brother never had the comics CGCed. I asked him to submit them. I begged him to submit them. He wouldn't do it. He returned them based on OldGuy's website.

Three of the four books that Ilkin returned were later BLUE LABELED BY CGC. The fourth of the four books I kept, for a rainy day.

Turhan is owed NOTHING. Turhan bought nothing. Ilkin is owed NOTHING, and paypal records prove it. All money received was returned. Every penny. Meanwhile, if you want to see some eye-opening emails that "poor, innocent" Buggsy wrote, just ask.

And you have to be nuts to think you can definitively detect restoraton from scans or grading companies would spring up running online grading services. All you can do is identify books with a high potential for having resto. And of course if you have before and after photos, that's a lock, but this isn't the case here.

Of course, CG's Detective 306 is in a class by itself. That'll get the alarms clanging on everyone's resto detector.

[The Charlton Guy]

You could always tell us if it is restored, right?

I mean, you would most certainly know, right? Who is in a better position to know? You would be the one to tell him, right? Just like you tell all of your buyers whether a book is trimmed or touched or whatever, right?

Oh no...that's right, you wait until they find out for themselves.

Thanks for the refund though!

So wait...

We still don't know for sure whether it is trimmed or not do we?

So what shall we do?

Sent it to CGC? Oh no, that won't do, they let trimmed books slip by all the time, hell, they even sanction trimmed books as Blue Label, right?

What shall we do...:confused:

Seriously though, what is your criteria for issuing a refund? Are we talking CGC Blue Label or bust?

Will a creditible Store owner do? An experienced restorer?

Or are you willing to issue a refund simply because the buyer is displeased with the book? One of those "If for any reason" refunds?

Fill us in please. It would be greatly appreciated.

[AceVentura]

Did you actually read my answer? All of it? I'll bet you didn't. The comics weren't CGCed. Ilkin and Mustafa decided they were altered without the aid of CGC. Whatever means they used to reach that determination, whether throwing chicken bones or a sound second opinion, it didn't matter. The net result was the same. Ilkin requested a return and got it. There was nothing wrong with them.

If he received the books and wasn't happy with them based on condition he would have had 10 days to return them. If he received altered books, he would have been able to return them at any time.

I've also had a case where someone bought a cheap comic, altered it, submitted it to CGC, and then used it against me. A set up. Before and after scans would clearly show that a piece of one edge went MIA between mailing it and getting it back.

You wouldn't think someone would do that, right? But what's the cost? You know you're getting your money back on the book. You're only out the postage and submission fee and for $50 you bought a wonderful horror story and CGC forum praise.

I have all these nice things saved for a rainy day.

What more can a seller do aside from not selling at all, or go with the books and babysit them?

If you read any of the posts before this one, there's mention of a CGC 9.6 taken on consignment that was cracked out at the consignor's behest to be auctioned as a raw 9.8 or 9.9. That buyer sent the book to Ciconne, who found WORK on it. I honored a return from the buyer and the consignor STIFFED me.

I have the scans of the book before being cracked out, the invoice dates, and scans of Sue's documents on the book.

Before we completely forget, did Turhan tell you about his $150,000 extortion attempt? Or did he forget about that?

Matter of fact, long after his brother and I reversed the deal, Turhan was still communicating with me about his $150,000 "bonus". We had dozens of emails and the last ones were from me. To him and his brother. An email that my lawyer drafted advising them of what crimes Turhan had committed. He broke off communication immediately after that.

I didn't hear from them since. But it's no surprise to hear that he still thinks I "owe him" a $150,000 "bonus". That's why I saved everything connected to this deal that was simply a return and refund until Turhan decided to go for the gold.

[The Charlton Guy]

Interesting. It all sounds very convoluted and I grant you, it sounds like your transactions are not easy ones. I don't envy you that.

But perhaps this is because a good portion of your auctions are trimmed and color touched by you in advance of sale.

I won't bother to grill you on just what percentage of your books that may be, but if you are interested in revealing a rough percentage, that would be highly laudable.

After all, what you do (the trimming and restoration) is not illegal, and many would not even consider it immoral. In fact, you show considerable skill in your restoration and trimming technique. If I were you, and had such skills, I would likely take some considerable pride in it.

But I would disclose it. That's where the line is crossed. And you have crossed it consistently for years.

Why not come right out and say that "this comic has been restored/trimmed" and let the beauty of the book speak for itself?

Isn't it true that most high end collectors look for style and eye appeal over any semblance of nostalgia, "integrity" or authenticism anyway? I bet you would do nearly as well in your sales as you have done to date.

I know that you have come out and called out certain of your books as restored or trimmed, but in the same round of auctions are books that are obviously trimmed or otherwise manipulated that are touted as "Guaranteed Unrestored".

It makes you look like a blatent con artist.

And you know, I agree that you are not the only one out there doing it. And I agree that CGC to date has shown culpability and turned a blind eye to cronies in the past, and bottom line? I don't trust CGC either.

But the "everybody's doing it" routine will get you nowhere. Not as long as you continue to pump trimmed book after trimmed book into the market.

Because my biggest gripe with you is not regarding buyers who want a refund and have to go through weeks or months of hassle, it's not that you make a lot of money, it is partially because you are screwing up books that if left alone most people would die for, but it's not that crap, it's this FACT that bothers me the most, about you and non-disclosing trimmers like you (just to show I am not entirely singling you out):

It is the thought that the greater portion of your buyers are not aware that they are getting a trimmed or restored book at all. A month or two later? They get hit hard with bills. They need to make a student loan payment or something. The book changes hands. Maybe the book changes hands again. And thus becomes "anonymous". Or worse yet, the buyer has someone tell them something is amiss with the book, but turns around and unleashes it anyway and joins the ranks of your ilk. And this has likely happened with book after book after book.

You talk about the horrorshow of finding out ten years down the road that 90% of high grade Gold and Silver books are trimmed or restored?

Well congratulations. You have certainly done your part. Haven't you?

Again, I won't even try and pin you down on how many trimmed or touched books you have pumped out on the market. But I really do want to know and would be mighty impressed if you would share a rough figure with us all.

[The Charlton Guy]

I'll bet you didn't know that, CG. I know you like wagering it seems. I'll bet you that yor pal Buggsy never confided in you ANY of that, right? Pesky little things like ALL the details and the other side of the story which were "complacently" undisclosed. To you, it was just another CK horror story and you were all too glad to "complacently" listen and accept without even doubting the validity of the story.

And yes, I did (and do) doubt the validity of the story. Thus my statement that I too smelled something "fishy". I know that there are two sides to every story, and I will certainly be very interested in hearing your side. I know a lot of people will. Thus this forum.

Actually, I don't like wagering much. I usually lose. But sometimes I score a point or two. Particularly on "Burger Time"! Right Hoss?

[ciorac]

Did you actually read my answer? All of it? I'll bet you didn't. The comics weren't CGCed. Ilkin and Mustafa decided they were altered without the aid of CGC. Whatever means they used to reach that determination, whether throwing chicken bones or a sound second opinion, it didn't matter. The net result was the same. Ilkin requested a return and got it. There was nothing wrong with them.

If he received the books and wasn't happy with them based on condition he would have had 10 days to return them. If he received altered books, he would have been able to return them at any time.

I've also had a case where someone bought a cheap comic, altered it, submitted it to CGC, and then used it against me. A set up. Before and after scans would clearly show that a piece of one edge went MIA between mailing it and getting it back.

You wouldn't think someone would do that, right? But what's the cost? You know you're getting your money back on the book. You're only out the postage and submission fee and for $50 you bought a wonderful horror story and CGC forum praise.

I have all these nice things saved for a rainy day.

What more can a seller do aside from not selling at all, or go with the books and babysit them?

If you read any of the posts before this one, there's mention of a CGC 9.6 taken on consignment that was cracked out at the consignor's behest to be auctioned as a raw 9.8 or 9.9. That buyer sent the book to Ciconne, who found WORK on it. I honored a return from the buyer and the consignor STIFFED me.

I have the scans of the book before being cracked out, the invoice dates, and scans of Sue's documents on the book.

Before we completely forget, did Turhan tell you about his $150,000 extortion attempt? Or did he forget about that?

Matter of fact, long after his brother and I reversed the deal, Turhan was still communicating with me about his $150,000 "bonus". We had dozens of emails and the last ones were from me. To him and his brother. An email that my lawyer drafted advising them of what crimes Turhan had committed. He broke off communication immediately after that.

I didn't hear from them since. But it's no surprise to hear that he still thinks I "owe him" a $150,000 "bonus". That's why I saved everything connected to this deal that was simply a return and refund until Turhan decided to go for the gold.

Perhaps the "bonus" was thought of as punitive damages? One can certainly seek them in cases of fraud.

I don't know the facts of this case, so this is just conjecture.

However, I DO know that there is no excuse whatsoever for trimming a comic book (it is destroyed an no longer collectible in my opinion) or restoring a book in any way and not disclosing it. None. Whether you offer a refund or not is immaterial. When you perpetrate a fraudulent transaction and get caught, refunding the money is not laudable, it is simply to avoid prosecution I would wager.

Not disclosing work you performed on a book is fraud. Period. My assumption is that you hope the lion share of your "customers" (victims) don't discover your plot and you get to keep the ill gotten gains.

There is honest money to be made in the hobby, make some.

[AceVentura]

Interesting. It all sounds very convoluted and I grant you, it sounds like your transactions are not easy ones. I don't envy you that.

But perhaps this is because a good portion of your auctions are trimmed and color touched by you in advance of sale.

A "good portion"? How can anyone that didn't parcipate in or have full knowledge of just how many books I've sold on and off ebay make a statement like that with any certainty? It's an assumption. And a wrong one.


I won't bother to grill you on just what percentage of your books that may be, but if you are interested in revealing a rough percentage, that would be highly laudable.

Certainly no more than any other seller who consisitantly had dealt in mostly raw high grade silver age comics throughout the entire CGC age (2000 to present).

I never went through and added up all the comics that were returned. If I did, it would be a small percentage compared to the total number of transactions.
If you're never in the cockpit, you can't crash an airplane, right. Some sellers can claim to never have sold an altered raw book to anyone and had a problem. But if they've only dealt in graded books, that claim doesn't mean much, does it?


After all, what you do (the trimming and restoration) is not illegal, and many would not even consider it immoral. In fact, you show considerable skill in your restoration and trimming technique. If I were you, and had such skills, I would likely take some considerable pride in it.

Another assumption. Has ANY book that I've ever sold been linked directly to me with before (untrimmed) and after (trimmed) scans? A la Ewert? Fuck no! Because that doesn't exist. I don't own restoration tools, I don't have restoration skills, trimming skills, or what have you, and I don't trim books.

This grew out of Fantazia, because people erroneously connect me with Fantazia. We're all the same person, right? Fantazia had a restoration service advertised in Overstreet. It was advertised at the behest of Cantie Brevard, who did the resto work contracted by Fantazia.

Three years ago on the CGC Forums, Cantie said, "that's not how it went". But the way I heard it, that was the deal. Cantie's restoration skills were negligible and he was botching comics that Fantazia was contracting for him through his Overstreet ad. I don't blame Cantie for wanting to put as much distance as he could between Fantazia and himself under the current climate when hate and accusations based on assumptions are in effect.


But I would disclose it. That's where the line is crossed. And you have crossed it consistently for years.

You're kidding, right? The only lines crossed are in your projections. For years I auctioned RESTORED comics with that word emblazened boldly in the title and description. When I did, invariably, some CGC knucklehead would retort, "they must ALL be trimmed".


Why not come right out and say that "this comic has been restored/trimmed" and let the beauty of the book speak for itself?

Right there you're contradicting yourself. Didn't you post on the CGC discussion boards and repost it in this thread that a trimmed book is worthless? It upsets your aesthetics, or something to that effect? When I see the work, I disclose it.


Isn't it true that most high end collectors look for style and eye appeal over any semblance of nostalgia, "integrity" or authenticism anyway? I bet you would do nearly as well in your sales as you have done to date.

I've done real well WITHOUT cutting CGC in on the grading of my books all these years. Without basically making them a "partner". And any work on the books are disclosed to the best of my abilities.


I know that you have come out and called out certain of your books as restored or trimmed, but in the same round of auctions are books that are obviously trimmed or otherwise manipulated that are touted as "Guaranteed Unrestored".

It makes you look like a blatent con artist.

Why is that? Why can't a disclosed restored book be offered in the same round of auctions as unrestored books? You mean they're ALL guilty because 1 or 2 raw restored books are offered with 25 to 50 unrestored raw books?

Is this true with raw and graded books as well? When I used to auction slabbed books in the same round as raw books, I'd get emails asking, "why didn't I CGC the raw ones too. Is something wrong with them?". I'd answer, "I don't belong to Collector's Society. I buy raw, I sell raw. I buy slabbed, I sell slabbed".


And you know, I agree that you are not the only one out there doing it. And I agree that CGC to date has shown culpability and turned a blind eye to cronies in the past, and bottom line? I don't trust CGC either.

But the "everybody's doing it" routine will get you nowhere. Not as long as you continue to pump trimmed book after trimmed book into the market.

You're assuming again. I'm not "doing" anything other than identifying raw books and disclosing when I see it.


Because my biggest gripe with you is not regarding buyers who want a refund and have to go through weeks or months of hassle, it's not that you make a lot of money, it is partially because you are screwing up books that if left alone most people would die for, but it's not that crap, it's this FACT that bothers me the most, about you and non-disclosing trimmers like you (just to show I am not entirely singling you out):

Nobody EVER went through weeks or months of hassling. And I'm not screwing with any books that people would die for. And again, you're calling me a trimmer without any proof whatsoever that I'm trimming books. When you have direct evidence of ME, trimming a book, pictures, movies, eye witness testimony, tools in my hand, paper shards under my shoes, a book that I bought untrimmed (a before scan), and sold later with undisclosed trim (an after scan of the same book), THEN, and only then can you call me a trimmer. Until then, it's slander, which I know you have penchant for doing.


It is the thought that the greater portion of your buyers are not aware that they are getting a trimmed or restored book at all. A month or two later? They get hit hard with bills. They need to make a student loan payment or something. The book changes hands. Maybe the book changes hands again. And thus becomes "anonymous". Or worse yet, the buyer has someone tell them something is amiss with the book, but turns around and unleashes it anyway and joins the ranks of your ilk. And this has likely happened with book after book after book.

That happened to Nic Cage too several times, didn't it? In fact, every time a raw comic is sold, there is a chance that will happen. That's why seller's guarantee raw sales. Not all do, unfortunately.


You talk about the horrorshow of finding out ten years down the road that 90% of high grade Gold and Silver books are trimmed or restored?

Yes they are. Not 90% but a good percentage of them.


Well congratulations. You have certainly done your part. Haven't you?

Yes I have. Thanks for noticing. 3 years before MasterCheif started the Manufactured Gold thread that everyone hailed him as a genius for, I posted hundreds of examples of trimmed Silver age and altered golden age books on message boards. Not many took notice. And those that did "complacently" dismissed it as bullshit.

When I first pointed out Ewert's books, most "complacently" dismissed it as Bullshit.

When I pointed out that Heritage owned CGC, most "complacently" dismissed it as bullshit.

Should I keep going?

I pointed out that for decades, 75% of even the highest grade early Marvels had chips, pre-chips, and overflash micro-tears. Where the fuck were all of these super high grade 9.4 to 9.8 CGC early marvels coming from in CGC blue label slabs all of a sudden? In the 70s, 80s, and 90s NOBODY ever saw more than a handful of perfect early marvels with perfect overflash and edges smooth as glass. And noboby saw 9.6 early marvels that were so small that they fit into Modern age wells.

Yet suddenly, here they were, in CGC slabs. Dozens of them. Hundreds of them. Thousands of them. More and more every year. Usually offered by the same small handful of sellers that always seemed to be in the pictures with Borock in the center, everybody all smiling and shit. How on God's green Earth did the same handful of sellers get a hold of the same type of books of a quality that most never even saw ONE of in past decades?

I did do my part. Nobody listened to "crazy old Hammer".


Again, I won't even try and pin you down on how many trimmed or touched books you have pumped out on the market. But I really do want to know and would be mighty impressed if you would share a rough figure with us all.

Not as many as you think. Not intentionally. No more than other sellers who have sold thousands of VF and better raw books.

I'm the one under a magnifying glass, they're not. How lucky for them.

[AceVentura]

Perhaps the "bonus" was thought of as punitive damages? One can certainly seek them in cases of fraud.

No. Turhan was quite clear on his intent and punitive damages weren't mentioned. He was seeking "hush money". He also threatened to go to the police and tell the world that Richard Koos is Danny Dupcak if I didn't cough up $150,000 for him. How he would have proven that, I have no idea.

How could this be construed as punitive damages? There was no fraud and no determination of fraud made by any court. It was a pure extortion attempt. Would you like to see it? Just to be clear on this?


I don't know the facts of this case, so this is just conjecture.

However, I DO know that there is no excuse whatsoever for trimming a comic book (it is destroyed an no longer collectible in my opinion) or restoring a book in any way and not disclosing it. None. Whether you offer a refund or not is immaterial. When you perpetrate a fraudulent transaction and get caught, refunding the money is not laudable, it is simply to avoid prosecution I would wager.

There is not excuse for trimming a book but in the past PROFESSIONAL restorers did it commonly as one of their procedures. So your saying that if ANY seller offers a raw comic that is later found to be trimmed that it's a deliberate act of fraud? Good luck making that stick in criminal court.

And you're right about one thing. Who wants to be prosecuted? You know of anybody who doesn't mind and will go out of theri way to make that happen? Nobody here is perpetrating deliberate fraud. Nobody is committing fraud. Money is refunded if something goes wrong with the item or doesn't like it. ALL sellers should do that. The ones that DON'T are perpetrating fraud. You know that.


Not disclosing work you performed on a book is fraud. Period. My assumption is that you hope the lion share of your "customers" (victims) don't discover your plot and you get to keep the ill gotten gains.

There's no plot and the only thing that I always hope is that I'll wake up in the morning.


There is honest money to be made in the hobby, make some.

:roll: I know. I'll only deal in CGC and PGX comics from now on so there can't possibly be a chance that any of them are cleaned, pressed, restructured, color-touched, or trimmed!

[The Charlton Guy]

An excellent post.

You are doing a lot to dispel a lot of rumor and slander.

And as for the slander and downright name-calling I have partaken in, I do apologize, particularly for the "scum-bag" and similar comments. I do tend to go on, don't I? And I have been known to step on the wrong toes on more than one occasion, and am just as easily led into the trap of making someone out to be a boogey-man who at least stands a liklihood of being sincere (or at worst, oblivious). But the name-calling and such was uncalled for, and not like me at all. Discussion boards will do that to people sometimes, particularly when they are as prone to getting irate as I am.

And your track record in bringing to light all of the other scams and un-disclosed books and colusion and such and such is well known (or should be) and if you are to be applauded for anything, that is a hell of a place to start.

But man, I just plain can't believe that you don't own any restoration tools and don't know how to use them. How could I possibly know that for certain? I can't. I just have a very, very, very hard time believing that.

Unless you are spending your time intentionally going out to find trimmed books for resale, I have seen enough of your high-res scans to know that there WAS book after book after book that showed corners and edges that were just WAY too good to be true. And I'm not talking just a few here and there, I've been watching your auctions, and saving your scans for well over five years.

I know, you DARE me to discern whether a book has been trimmed just from looking at a scan. Well, I'm no spring chicken. And I have seen my share of raging high grade books, the same SA and key books over and over at shops and shows all over the country, and I can tell you that I CAN tell if an edge or corner has been trimmed from looking at a high-res scan. This isn't rocket science, it's just a good pair of glasses and a lot of books under my belt.

So if you don't want to admit to being an "Ace" at trimming books, then don't. If you want to continue to sell with your patented C-K method? Be my guest, I'm not stopping you. I'm just trying, in my own way, to bring to light the very same issues that you too seem to feel strongly about: That more and more comics are getting slashed and trashed for all time just to make a buck. And regardless of what laudable traits you want to pin on your chest, I still think you are a part of it.

And that sucks.

For you and me both.

[AceVentura]

An excellent post.

You are doing a lot to dispel a lot of rumor and slander.

Maybe in your mind, because you're actually giving a guy a fair shake and listening to the yang that goes with the yin, but unfortunately in this hobby, CK has already been convicted with blade in hand, of every wrong-doing under the sun. I'm already tried, and convicted due to Old Guy's CGC backed site.

And you want to know something, before CK EVER sold one book on Ebay, CK was already tried and convicted. Just from BUYING. I'd get emails, "You're in Floral Park so you MUST be that fucking Dupcak". I'd get caller ID blocked phone calls with someone screaming, "Stop ripping off the hobby" at the top of their lungs. Meanwhile, I hadn't even sold a book yet on Ebay. :confused:

In fact, my entire first round of auctions, which included a CGC Marvel Comics #1 in G/VG blue, a Superman #2 in CGC VG/FN blue, a Mickey Mantle 1952 Topps card graded 8.0 by Pro., and about a dozen high powered raw comics and cards performed horribly. My bidders were getting spammed left and right, "that's Danny Dupcak, not Richard Koos", and the bid cancellations came faster than the new bids to replace them! Plus whoever DID win an auction didn't send payment.

I hadn't sold ANYTHING yet and had a 100-0 feedback from just buying. I had a big collection to deal and here I was getting maliciously shut out before I ever made my first sale!


And as for the slander and downright name-calling I have partaken in, I do apologize, particularly for the "scum-bag" and similar comments. I do tend to go on, don't I? And I have been known to step on the wrong toes on more than one occasion, and am just as easily led into the trap of making someone out to be a boogey-man who at least stands a liklihood of being sincere (or at worst, oblivious).

Sometimes people feel more comfortable wiping their feet on someone if they're not allowed to speak up, address the issues, and reveal what you're NOT hearing, like good old Turhan's story which was missing 99% of the facts and details. People usually hear what they want to hear and have already drawn a foregone conclusion before you get to the word, "BUT....".

For all your name calling, finger pointing, and damage you've tried to cause me, I don't think you're the type that would rather the target of an attack remain mute. But alot of people don't have that gumption to give a guy a fair shake or recognize that he should have one.

This is truly rare in this hobby that you and Hoss have allowed me to answer to the numerous charges and misconceptions of the usual one sided, convoluted diatribes. And I'm grateful.


And your track record in bringing to light all of the other scams and un-disclosed books and colusion and such and such is well known (or should be) and if you are to be applauded for anything, that is a hell of a place to start.

Doesn't matter to anyone. It's business as usual in the hobby. You know when it'll matter? If and when that 2nd erstwhile grading company enters the hobby and cross submission becomes a part of the financial gain game plan! But it won't happen soon. Heritage and their sister corp. CGC have a stranglehold on the hobby. A financial and political stranglehold.


But man, I just plain can't believe that you don't own any restoration tools and don't know how to use them. How could I possibly know that for certain? I can't. I just have a very, very, very hard time believing that.

If I had the tools I'm sure I'd figure out how to use them. Whther or not I have the skill to use them effectively is doubtful. There's threads and pages all over the internet on which tools to get and how to use them. I'm just all thumbs when it comes to art and crafts and I'm sure a high dgree of manual dexterity is necessary for successful comic restoration. Anyone can pick up a rod and reel and cast a line in the water but that doesn't necessarily make them a fisherman.


Unless you are spending your time intentionally going out to find trimmed books for resale, I have seen enough of your high-res scans to know that there WAS book after book after book that showed corners and edges that were just WAY too good to be true. And I'm not talking just a few here and there, I've been watching your auctions, and saving your scans for well over five years.

When you're intentionally trying to buy the highest grade raw books that you can find, invariably, trimmed ones will find their way in and become a part of the equation. The same holds true for cleaned, pressed, and trimmed books in the highest grade CGC blue label slabs as possible. Then again, maybe it's the scanner. You're still going by scans, not the book in-hand. Even the pros who get paid for grading need the book in hand to do theri restoration check.


I know, you DARE me to discern whether a book has been trimmed just from looking at a scan. Well, I'm no spring chicken. And I have seen my share of raging high grade books, the same SA and key books over and over at shops and shows all over the country, and I can tell you that I CAN tell if an edge or corner has been trimmed from looking at a high-res scan. This isn't rocket science, it's just a good pair of glasses and a lot of books under my belt.

Well I will say this. You had a bet going with Perry (who supposedly doesn't exist, although he sure didn't have a problem starting a corp. and getting his name on a PayPal account, right? You can do that if you don't exist?) on an FF#23 that you're sure is trimmed (from a scan) because you've got alot of books under your belt (BTW, how do you keep your pants up with all those books under your belt?).

I happen to know the origins of the FF#23 and I'd be willing to make a wager with you also on it, knowing that trimming is out of the question. I'm told that the buyer, who you have communicated with, has collected for 30+ years. Didn't he tell you that he's positive that it's not trimmed? Are you such a consummate expert that you're always right even when the buyer isn't the least bit concerned that it could possibly have been trimmed and has completely ruled it out based on all of the books under HIS belt? And when you've never seen the book up close in person? With all those books under your belt, where do you find room for those giant balls of yours? :D


So if you don't want to admit to being an "Ace" at trimming books, then don't. If you want to continue to sell with your patented C-K method? Be my guest, I'm not stopping you. I'm just trying, in my own way, to bring to light the very same issues that you too seem to feel strongly about: That more and more comics are getting slashed and trashed for all time just to make a buck. And regardless of what laudable traits you want to pin on your chest, I still think you are a part of it.

WHO is continuing to sell with a patented C-K method? If you mean Robojo33, from where I sit, all I see is good product and a huge effort made to disclose any possible work when present. I see MANY CGC forum members who won books. Not one, or two, but MANY. We'll soon see what type of methodogy is being employed when the submissions come back, right? Unless it's simply another case of guilt by association.

I've been told that the Avengers #52 was formerly a Ewert/CGC blue label book, but it wasn't included on the "possibly tainted" list, because it's from BEFORE his trimming period. The purchase was about three years old and can still be seen way back in Robojo33's buying feedback. I'm curious to see how that one pans out.

Hopefully the FF#23 will be submitted someday, as well as the Spiderman #33. Two books that you identified as "positively trimmed". I can't wait to see the results on those two.

[bugsy]

I have lots to say but it will have to wait until this evening as im off to work. In the meantime can i ask Danny/Richard/Perry or whatever your new name is these days to talk abut this so-called fraud that im attempting. By that i mean can he put up the e-mail where i told him about a book that i had bought from a dealer that has some slight colour touch and does he think it would be too late if i sent it back for a refund. HE was the one that said not only should i ask for my money back BUT the dealer should also pay what they should be worth. I guess that an Amazing Fantasy #15 in NM must be worth $150,000 in todays market. After all you did sell one a few years earlier for $117,000. Now stick the e-mail up first, it shouldnt be too hard to find ive sent it to you enough times to let you know where im coming from but of course you choose to ignore it, and then everyone can see why we made this demand. You see i am going buy your OWN WORDS but of course you dont like it. You believe this dealer should give me the current value as if the book was unrestored but when i ask you for the same thing suddenly it doesnt apply to you. Now i want you to stick it up first because there is no way i believe you would put an unedited version up. Ill then stick the proper version up and then if anybody is undecided please contact Mark Zaid who also has a copy. A message to CG can i am having trouble loading the Guaranteed Unrestored Amazing Fantasy #15 that Danny sold Ilkin. Would you be able to try it fromthe e-mail i sent you.
thanks
Bugsy

[AceVentura]

Why sure, Buggsy. How about some of these:

1) PTSIZE=10>Subj: <B>Re: LEGAL ACTION</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
Date: 7/7/06 6:10:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time<BR>
From: Comic Keys<BR>
To: turhan@tinyworld.co.uk<BR>
CC: ilkin@lineone.net<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
T, You leave me no room to even have a chance to give in to your sudden demands of a huge payment by today at 5PM UK time (not sure when that is by East coast time). You're demanding a multi-hundred thousand dollar sum of money as payment to keep you from enacting the threats you outlined if I don't give in an pay you this amount. An amount of money that I don't have and that was NOT part of the refund agreement, nor was promised in my sales guarantee at the time of their purchase or return. Even if I wanted to appease you in some way, you're not giving us any options or time for rectifying this. It's taken all I can do to raise the $38,000 necessary to complete Ilkin's agreed upon refund that I hope to finish within the week, but to demand another $100,000 to $150,000 beyond what he is owed by today, is not a possibility. You may as well be demanding 10 million dollars. It's an amount that I don't have and wouldn't know where to begin securing it. I'm here if we can discuss this. I PayPalled Ilkin $8,000 that cleared my account last evening, and there will be more this week, possibly every day, as funds clear my account, to be transferred directly to Ilkin, hopefully completing his agreed upon refund, the remedy he chose when he returned the books for refund, within a few days this week. As fast as I receive it, Ilkin will get it. I'm doing all that I can, trying to appease you and Ilkin, and I'm just asking you to please set aside your anger and the threats for now, and work with me on this so I can first finish squaring up with Ilkin and then we can take it from there. Is that at all possible? That's all I'm asking. Let me get Ilkin's agreed upon guaranteed refund squared away. Let me do that for him, and then if you still want to, there's always time for you to come at me heavy handed with demands and threats of ruination unless I pay you a large sum of money. Just, PLEASE, let me complete his refund much sooner than the August 31st deadline that he requested. You'll see. There will be money coming to him daily, as I receive it. There's $40,000 in and the balance is down to $30,000 currently on the two big books and that will be finished up very quickly. That, I can handle right now. Hundreds of thousands, I cannot. Thank you, T.<BR>
<BR>
Respectfully, Richard</FONT></HTML>

[AceVentura]

<HTML><FONT BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10>Subj: <B>Re: trying to finish up LONG before your August 31st request</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
Date: 7/17/06 7:19:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time<BR>
From: Comic Keys<BR>
To: ilkin@lineone.net<BR>
CC: turhan@tinyworld.co.uk<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
Ilkin, I can do that. Forward me your bank information. It will probably take a week to transfer the money BACK into my bank account from PayPal to pay you, but just send me the info, and I'll get started, transfering the dough to my bank account to forward to yours as soon as it clears... usually 5 to 8 days.<BR>
<BR>
Respectfully, Richard<BR>
<BR>
PS: Possibly you can speak to Turhan. I have nothing personally against him but he's off the hook with his almost daily extortion demands (demanding $150,000 NOT to smear me in the hobby), and quite honestly, he's committing a crime of extorion, with his repeated attempts to extort money from me to "keep quiet". I just want to pay you what I owe you and finish this up, and complete the refund without all the BS.</FONT></HTML>

[AceVentura]

Here we go. A nice uncompromised chain of emails:

FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
Date: 7/15/06 6:33:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time<BR>
From: Comic Keys<BR>
To: ilkin@lineone.net<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
Ilkin, The account still won't accept it. I tried $3000 first, then $2000! I still got the "the recipient is currently unable to receive money". I'll try again later on.<BR>
<BR>
Also, I don't know if you're aware of it, but Turhan keeps writing me these threatening emails with extortion demands of $150,000 or more to keep quiet from "ruining" me in the hobby on websites and to keep him from reporting me to a Karen Lutz, and going to Mark Zaid. I don't know if you realize this, but Once you make a demand for a large sum of money, for your silence, that's extortion! Of course, you can say, "Pay Ilkin what you owe him or we'll sue you", but there's a BIG difference in what Turhan has done. The approach, wording, and intent of his demands and what he will do if I don't pay him a sum of money that is FAR in excess of what the agreed upon amount that I owe you. This is the last email I drafted, but I have not sent it to him as of yet, as I don't want to escalate anything with him. I just want to get you paid off with what I owe you:<BR>
<BR>
Turhan, I presently have the balance up to $50,000. It would have been finished by now, all paid off if Ilkin's account could accept payment. I made 3 payments to him on successive nights totaling about $18,000 and then on the following night received a message from PayPal when I tried sending the balance, "This recipient is unable to receive funds at this time". Ask Ilkin if you don't believe me. You do communicate with him, don't you, or is this effort to extort $150,000 from me in this "get rich quick" scheme over and above what Ilkin's refund is (as agreed to when he returned the books) solely yours alone? Is Ilkin aware of the contents of your letter to me threatening me with ruination if I don't send you $150,000 to "be quiet"? A sum that he is not entitled to and that was never agreed upon as a condition of his chosen remedy when he returned the books for refund. I only ask, because if he is aware of that and gave you the go ahead to attempt blackmailing me, he's an accessory to an extortion attempt. I have every email that Ilkin and you ever exchanged with me. Every one. You asked many times in the past, if alteration is found, what does Ilkin get? "His money back, or more?", you asked. Curious how even before he bought a book from me, you wanted to know if he would get more than what he paid if he returned it on my guarantee. To which I always replied "his money back". No guarantee was ever made to pay any more than his purchase price if alteration was ever found. Matter of factly, when Ilkin returned the books, CHOOSING HIS REMEDY (according to a judge that I consulted), I offered to replace the AF 15 and Spiderman 1. Would you like to see the emails? Ilkin declined that offer. Now, you want replacement value? Now you want the books? His remedy was chosen by him, the buyer (not you), and funds forwarded as quickly as I could send them, and accepted, by him the buyer. I paid him back at a rate twice as fast as he paid me. He took three years to pay me on those two big books. I still have the Spiderman 19 and 34 safely tucked away, and THERE ARE NO SIGNS OF ALTERATION ON THOSE BOOKS. None of the color touch and/or trimming that they were supposedly returned for. They're the very same ones that were returned due to "alteration". There's none there, and images would prove them to be the same books. What your restoration expert there in England saw on those books to cause Ilkin to return them for a purchase price refund somehow disappeared on the way back because there's nothing there. <BR>
<BR>
Now, I'm trying to send him the rest of his money. The amount that is owed to him. The amount that he AGREED TO WHEN HE RETURNED THE BOOKS FOR REFUND, but his PayPal account isn't accepting it. Check with him please, if you two are still communicating, and please try to remember, my deal was with Ilkin. He agreed to his refund, he knew the books were guaranteed for their original purchase price, and when I went above and beyond and offered to replace them, he declined and opted to send them back for his refund. <BR>
<BR>
If he could fix his PayPal account so I could send him the other $20,000 or so, that would be great. It's his money and that's what he's entitled to and I'd love to finish giving it to him, and by the way, this isn't the first time I tried to send him money and his PayPal account wouldn't accept it. Is there a limit on how much he can receive within a certain time period? I'll try again later anyway to send it. I'm here T, and I'm still trying to simply finish this off as was mutually agreed to, before you stepped in with extortion demands and threats looking for a big payday. <BR>
<BR>
Now, I fully understand that you're upset with me. But you must understand, I'm not upset with you. I have no present interest in bringing what is a clear cut extortion attempt to light with the criminal authorities. All I want to do is complete my original mutual agreement on the return of the books with Ilkin that we both agreed to. To give that man back his money. My deal with Ilkin didn't work out. Alot of deals don't. The difference with me is that if you buy from me and there's a problem, you get your money back. Not double or triple your money back. YOUR MONEY BACK. That's the purchase agreement. That's what I'm trying to do. Give that man his money. That's what we legally agreed to. He chose his remedy and I acted on it and I'd like to finish it as he requested. Actually sooner than he requested (his request by August 31st). His PayPal account won't take it. Please ask him to fix it, T. It's happened before a few times.<BR>
<BR>
And if you're getting this Ilkin, I'm sorry I didn't have a lump sum to give you, just as I'd rather have been paid in one lump sum if possible, but I'm trying to finish you up as agreed to by many emails all stating the same thing (your returning the books for refund and declining replacement). Please check your PayPal account and see why you can't receive payment at this time. Please fix it so I can send the rest of what I owe you. Thank you, Ilkin.<BR>
<BR>
Respectfully, Richard<BR>
<BR>
**********<BR>
<BR>
Maybe you can please have a talk with Turhan and tell him that I'm trying to finish paying you what I owe, concluding our business peacefully, and PayPal is the present hangup. I'm all for doing just that. I just want to complete this refund and give you your money, without any complications with Turhan. Thank you, Ilkin.<BR>
<BR>
Respectfully, Richard<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----------------<BR>
Forwarded Message: <BR>
Subj: <B>Fwd: trying to finish up LONG before your August 31st request</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
Date: 7/15/06 2:35:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time<BR>
From: Comic Keys<BR>
To: ilkin@lineone.net<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
OK, Got it!!! I'll give it a try in a little while, with a smaller amount $2000 or $3000. I'll have you finished up very soon!!<BR>
<BR>
-R<BR>
-----------------<BR>
Forwarded Message: <BR>
Subj: <B> RE: trying to finish up LONG before your August 31st request</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
Date: 7/13/06 8:24:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">From: ilkin@lineone.net<BR>
To: ComicKeys@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
Hello Richard<BR>
<BR>
Paypal have limited my account because of the recent activity....they have<BR>
asked for some personal infoarmation which i will fax to them tomorow<BR>
Ilkin.....<BR>
>-- Original Message --<BR>
>From: ComicKeys@aol.com<BR>
>Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 01:30:27 EDT<BR>
>Subject: trying to finish up LONG before your August 31st request<BR>
>To: ilkin@lineone.net<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Ilkin, I keep trying nightly to finish paying you the refund and keep getting<BR>
><BR>
>the same message box: "This recipient is currently unable to receive money."<BR>
><BR>
>We're stuck at $50,000 and it certainly isn't for lack of trying. We would<BR>
><BR>
>have been done by now if I wasn't getting these PayPal messages. <BR>
><BR>
>-Respectfully, Richard<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________ _________<BR>

[AceVentura]

<HTML><FONT BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10>Subj: <B>Re: Bank checks on the way! Global Express</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
Date: 9/7/06 7:32:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time<BR>
From: Comic Keys<BR>
To: ilkin@lineone.net<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
Ilkin, According to PayPal, I have $50,000 worth of payments to you, Plus $20,000 sent by wire = $70,000. Not $64,500. I can show you these receipts if you'd like. I'll gather the dates and the amounts, plus the transaction numbers and send them to you via email. <BR>
<BR>
No problem on the 19 and 34. I'll issue a refund on them.<BR>
<BR>
Going through my records, I have 2 emails. One to Turhan, and one to you, from approx. 3 years ago (Don't have it handy but I will find it as I saved all of our emails). I do clearly remember discussing refund with you and/or Turhan prior to the purchase. You and I touching on it very briefly but I went into the subject very thoroughly with Turhan in quite a long email. It was concerning refund policy, what you both wanted to know about a return, and we discussed what exactly would be refunded if a return was necessary for any reason. Would I be returning the purchase price, or the purchase price PLUS dollar/pound conversion fees, and I was very, very specific in clearly answering that my refund would be for purchase price, not the cost of doing business, which if that were the case, I would have charged you $70,000 + 5% for PayPal, which is the percentage they took on each transaction, and is not refunded to me on refunds returned to you. <BR>
<BR>
My impression, by the emails I received in response to my stand on refunds, was that you and Turhan clearly understood this. That I was paid in US funds and would return exactly what I was paid in US funds if a refund were necessary as a refund is always the possibility in ANY deal on non-CGC items for any reason. Only on CGCed books are there no refunds applicable, unless agreed upon otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
Ilkin, I'm not trying to do you out of anything. I think you know that by now. I gave you back exactly what you paid me. I was paid $70,000 in US dollars, not pounds, for those two big books and that's exactly what I returned, $50K through PayPal and $20K via bank wire), and I'm out $3500 from the transaction that I didn't ask you to add to the price of the books because it was the cost of doing business, whether the deal had to be reversed or not. <BR>
<BR>

[AceVentura]

Hey Turhan, do you remember this old dialog which took place BEFORE Ilkin bought the book?:

<HTML><FONT BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10>Subj: <B> Re: Question from eBay Member: AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 1 ... NM/NM+ 9.4+ (2244181...</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
Date: 5/16/04 1:00:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time<BR>
From: turhan@tinyworld.co.uk (t.mustafa)<BR>
To: ComicKeys@aol.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Richard,<BR>
From the discussion i had with him i dont think he is too bothered about the<BR>
grade, although if you sold him a book described as a VF/NM like the one F.F<BR>
Annual #1 you just showed be that might be a different story, i think his<BR>
main concern was the rstoration part. If he for example bought a book from<BR>
you which cost $35,000 which to him would be £20,000 and it turned out to be<BR>
restored and he sent it back to you would you write him out a cheque for<BR>
$35,000 which would mean he would get back about £18,000 due to the<BR>
different exchange rates for a buy/sell price of a bank(im sure you know<BR>
what im talking about unlike other U.S dealers that i could name) or would<BR>
you give him money back that amounts to £20,000.<BR>
thanks<BR>
T<BR>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: <ComicKeys@aol.com><BR>
To: <turhan@tinyworld.co.uk><BR>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 4:33 PM<BR>
<BR>
Subject: Re: Question from eBay Member: AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 1 ... NM/NM+ 9.4+<BR>
(2244181...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> T, There's two markets. Raw and slabbed. I do understand exactly what<BR>
you're<BR>
> referring to as being problematic if the transaction must be reversed as<BR>
far<BR>
> as lost funds. But these lost funds would be entirely due to paying for a<BR>
RAW<BR>
> purchase to "cross-over" into a slabbed item (which it's not). Undeniably,<BR>
> there are expenses involved in turning a raw book into a slabbed one. I<BR>
understand<BR>
> that, and if the book were returned PURPLE by CGC, of course, as my record<BR>
> shows, I would IMMEDIATELY refund all monies incurred in PURCHASING the<BR>
book<BR>
> from me. To start guaranteering "add-on" expenses, his decision for 3rd<BR>
party<BR>
> grading, is entirely HIS decision and his expense, whatever happens.<BR>
><BR>
> Let's say that at worst case scenario, the book is returned purple, he<BR>
loses<BR>
> the money only incurred on expenses for slabbing, as I will reimburse his<BR>
> monies sent to me!<BR>
> If it comes back BLUE 9.2 or less, chances are that he LOSES money on a<BR>
> resale as a CGC 9.2 should sell for about $35,000.<BR>
> If it comes back 9.4 and he wins it for $40,000, he's $25Gs AHEAD of the<BR>
game<BR>
> as a CGC 9.4 should sell for approx. $65,000 to $67,000, especially a<BR>
> gorgeous one with a BLUE toned cover.<BR>
> Longshot: It comes back a 9.6 (and we BOTH know that 9.6s on a spiderman 1<BR>
> are grades reserved for guys like JP, whose Ebay auction on a CGC 9.6<BR>
brough<BR>
> $107,000 for a book that was NO BETTER THAN 9.2!!) and he's at least<BR>
$65,000<BR>
> ahead of the game.<BR>
><BR>
> Bottom line: CGC submission is a GAMBLE. The more "connected" you are, the<BR>
> less of a gamble it is. Look at THIS 9.0 from a CGC constant submittor:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=32731&item=2243806027<BR>
><BR>
> THIS garbage is the worst CGC 9.0 I've seen in 4 years on Ebay! If THIS is<BR>
a<BR>
> CGC 9.0, then my Spiderman 1 on Ebay is an 11.5!! But it doesn't work that<BR>
way<BR>
> in the world of CGC grading unfortunately.<BR>
><BR>
> I can only back his gamble by providing him with a book that I will satnd<BR>
> behind with an ironclad money back guarantee. I can't back the expenses<BR>
needed to<BR>
> MAKE that wager. Thank you, T.<BR>
><BR>
> Respectfully, -Richard<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

---------------

I think we covered quite carefully exactly what would be guaranteed and what Ilkin's remedy would be if he were to return the books. EXACTLY what he paid, which is precisely what he did get. Not a penny more and not a penny less.

I can't believe we're wasting time rehashing what was all agreed to BEFORE the book(s) were ever dealt. I'll keep going though.

[AceVentura]

Ilkin's chosen remedy:

From: ilkin@lineone.net<BR>
To: ComicKeys@aol.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hello Richard<BR>
I have not heard from you for a some time, i hope all is ok with you.<BR>
I have sent this email again as maybe you did not get it.<BR>
<BR>
>-- Original Message --<BR>
>Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 21:24:58 +0000<BR>
>From: ilkin@lineone.net<BR>
>Subject: RE: Happy Holidays<BR>
>To: ComicKeys@aol.com<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Hello Richard.......the holidyas are over and its all back to normal.<BR>
>I have worked out how much i actually paid for the comics in sterling.<BR>
>Here goes<BR>
><BR>
>AMAZING SPIDER MAN 15 £26,000<BR>
>AMAZING SPIDER MAN 15 £18,000<BR>
>AMAZING SPIDER MAN 19 £1,000<BR>
>AMAZING SPIDER MAN 34 £1,200<BR>
>This totals £46,200<BR>
><BR>
>Please dont be offended as i have asked for nothing more other than that<BR>
>what i paid.<BR>
>Awaiting your reply<BR>
>Ilkin<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>>-- Original Message --<BR>
>>Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:11:35 +0000<BR>
>>From: ilkin@lineone.net<BR>
>>Subject: RE: Happy Holidays<BR>
>>To: ComicKeys@aol.com<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>>Hello Richard......sorry again for the late reply what with the holidyas<BR>
>>etc.<BR>
>>I have thought long and hard and i keep comming up with same thoughts,<BR>
>i<BR>
>>have discussed this even with my wife and she agrees with me, basically<BR>
>>i would like my money back. How we achieve this i am still working on<BR>
it<BR>
>>What i will do is work out how much i paid in sterling and hopefully i<BR>
>should<BR>
>>end up with the same ammount what with the exchange rate.<BR>
>>I will give you a break down on the costs etc.<BR>
>>I hope you dont mind but i feel this is the best outcome.<BR>

[AceVentura]

Then, out of a clear blue sky, we started talking about refunds as though these were sold as CGCed items. Ilkin started to equate the value of a raw 9.4 with a CGCed 9.4:

PTSIZE=10>Subj: <B> FW: Re: books</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
Date: 12/12/04 1:30:08 PM Eastern Standard Time<BR>
From: ilkin@lineone.net<BR>
To: comickeys@aol.com (koos richard)<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hello Richard<BR>
<BR>
Sorry for the late reply, as you know i have requested from you my money<BR>
back and in the meantime i have been trying to find out much these should<BR>
be worth at the current market value.<BR>
I have e-mailed a friend to give me details of the sales over the last<BR>
90 days of the books i own. There has been no sales of any Amazing Fantasy<BR>
#15's in NM+ which is what i graded the book at so he has given me the NM<BR>
price and because it is a non-pedigree book i would go for the figure of<BR>
$86,250.<BR>
i am still trying to find out how much the other books should be worth.....please<BR>
let me know your thoughts on the matter.<BR>
<BR>
Regards <BR>
Ilkin<BR>
<BR>

[AceVentura]

Ilkin, You have to consider that the books I sold you were NOT CGCed <BR>
>examples. They were RAW. Why would your friend be quoting you CGC prices?<BR>
>I didn't <BR>
>sell them to you CGCed, and I didn't guarantee they would grade a specific<BR>
>CGC <BR>
>grade. No seller would do that. CGC books command a premium based on the<BR>
>label, <BR>
>not raw books. I've seen raw AF15s graded NM close under $20,000 regularly<BR>
>on <BR>
>Ebay! Whether they're real or not I have no idea, naturally. I was thinking<BR>
><BR>
>more along the lines of reimbursing your money and refunding you on the<BR>
books,<BR>
><BR>
>which were sold AS raw books. When I sold them to you, I didn't quote you<BR>
>CGC <BR>
>prices on CGC graded books. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>

[AceVentura]

I'll synopsize it. Simplify, because I've got hundreds of Ilkin and Turhan emails. Y'all can request whatever emails you wish that cover whichever simplified recap:

1) Turhan asks about AF#15
2) Book offered
3) Turhan's brother Ilkin is interested
4) terms are discussed and agreed upon
5) refund scenarios are discussed, clarified, and agreed upon
6) the deal commences with 3 years of time payments.
7) modified refund scenarios are again brought up by Turhan but never agreed upon
8) Ilkin finally takes possession of the items
9) Ilkin requests a refund
10) Keys honors his request
11) Ilkin clarifies returning the books for the pre-sale agreed upon refund
12) Suddenly, Ilkin writes that Keys owes him $86,500 (CGC 9.4 replacement value) for the raw $45,000 AF#15 that he took possession of and was returning.
13) Keys clarified the original agreement by resending old emails but do offer to replace them..... offer declined by Ilkin.
14) Ilkin returns the books as his chosen remedy, agreeing to the original agreed upon terms
15) Ilkin gets his refund
16) Turhan steps in and demands $150,000 for his silence, ABOVE the precise agreed upon refund already made.

Am I missing anything Buggsy?

What do you think, CG? Can you imagine if your buyer, whose books were eaten by Canadian wolves while in transit, emailed you 5 years from now that he wasn't satisfied with the refund that he agreed to and just getting his money back. That now he wants $10,000 extra because CGC 9.4s would cost him 10Gs if he wanted to buy the ones that were lost in the mail to him? Wouldn't that be a hoot and a holler?

[The Charlton Guy]

This is truly rare in this hobby that you and Hoss have allowed me to answer to the numerous charges and misconceptions of the usual one sided, convoluted diatribes. And I'm grateful.

Hoss is a rare kind of guy. Fair and honest as the Texas day is long. We (all comic geeks, whatever age) are all lucky to have him, and the Corral.




Doesn't matter to anyone. It's business as usual in the hobby. You know when it'll matter? If and when that 2nd erstwhile grading company enters the hobby and cross submission becomes a part of the financial gain game plan! But it won't happen soon. Heritage and their sister corp. CGC have a stranglehold on the hobby. A financial and political stranglehold.

Oh happy day that'll be, but I'm with you on this one, monopolies are hard to break.




If I had the tools I'm sure I'd figure out how to use them. Whther or not I have the skill to use them effectively is doubtful. There's threads and pages all over the internet on which tools to get and how to use them. I'm just all thumbs when it comes to art and crafts and I'm sure a high dgree of manual dexterity is necessary for successful comic restoration. Anyone can pick up a rod and reel and cast a line in the water but that doesn't necessarily make them a fisherman.

Ever see those classic "You too can draw comics" ads? C'mon, don't sell your atistic abilities short!




When you're intentionally trying to buy the highest grade raw books that you can find, invariably, trimmed ones will find their way in and become a part of the equation. The same holds true for cleaned, pressed, and trimmed books in the highest grade CGC blue label slabs as possible. Then again, maybe it's the scanner. You're still going by scans, not the book in-hand. Even the pros who get paid for grading need the book in hand to do theri restoration check.

True. But then, a razor sharp corner on a background field of interior paper instead of a scanner bed, is a little hard to dismiss.




Well I will say this. You had a bet going with Perry (who supposedly doesn't exist, although he sure didn't have a problem starting a corp. and getting his name on a PayPal account, right? You can do that if you don't exist?) on an FF#23 that you're sure is trimmed (from a scan) because you've got alot of books under your belt (BTW, how do you keep your pants up with all those books under your belt?).

I don't wear pants.




I happen to know the origins of the FF#23 and I'd be willing to make a wager with you also on it, knowing that trimming is out of the question. I'm told that the buyer, who you have communicated with, has collected for 30+ years. Didn't he tell you that he's positive that it's not trimmed? Are you such a consummate expert that you're always right even when the buyer isn't the least bit concerned that it could possibly have been trimmed and has completely ruled it out based on all of the books under HIS belt? And when you've never seen the book up close in person? With all those books under your belt, where do you find room for those giant balls of yours? :D

The emails I received from the buyer made it clear that he has little or no interest or motivation in sending the book to CGC. He didn't even know how to begin going about the process. "Perry" and I attempted to intervene and submit the book for him, but I never received a response back from the buyer after the offer to submit it for him. I can't blame him. I wouldn't send a book off ot a perfect stranger with a name like "Charlton Guy". Then "Perry" sent me a $7,500 wager proposal to send the guy to Sarasota in a high-fallutin' Jet and Limo package. I declined the upping of the wager, but I am willing to continue with the $416 original wager amount. IF "Perry" can get the book submitted (I will still pay for the submittal, of course).



WHO is continuing to sell with a patented C-K method? If you mean Robojo33, from where I sit, all I see is good product and a huge effort made to disclose any possible work when present. I see MANY CGC forum members who won books. Not one, or two, but MANY. We'll soon see what type of methodogy is being employed when the submissions come back, right? Unless it's simply another case of guilt by association.

I see a lot of your books too. And I see that "Perry's" account was limited to buying only up to April 2007, when it abruptly shifts gears to a selling account only. Right around the time ebay enacted their "No Private Feedback for Sellers" policy. Interesting timing.



I've been told that the Avengers #52 was formerly a Ewert/CGC blue label book, but it wasn't included on the "possibly tainted" list, because it's from BEFORE his trimming period. The purchase was about three years old and can still be seen way back in Robojo33's buying feedback. I'm curious to see how that one pans out.

That is very interesting, and yes, I do see a lot of familiar names on his buyer's list, but amazing isn't it? Your seller name (Comic-Keys) isn't there at all. Yet "Perry" came right out and said that he had purchased numerous books from you, and even gave item numbers for books of yours that he had sold. It's all very confusing.



Hopefully the FF#23 will be submitted someday, as well as the Spiderman #33. Two books that you identified as "positively trimmed". I can't wait to see the results on those two.

Again, if you, sorry..."Perry" can convince the buyer of the F.F. 23 to submit it, either by himself, or through "Perry", I will pay the shipping and submittal fees and I too will sit with baited breath. Not like worm breath or something, you know what I mean.

I may not be as stand-up a guy as Hoss is, but I will stick to my word, and to this wager. Including the original terms as outlined on the ebay thread. I still look forward to it.

[The Charlton Guy]

What do you think, CG? Can you imagine if your buyer, whose books were eaten by Canadian wolves while in transit, emailed you 5 years from now that he wasn't satisfied with the refund that he agreed to and just getting his money back. That now he wants $10,000 extra because CGC 9.4s would cost him 10Gs if he wanted to buy the ones that were lost in the mail to him? Wouldn't that be a hoot and a holler?

Hey, wait a minute...how did YOU know that that's how it went down! :confused:

[stupidman]

Be on the lookout for this man, hopefully just as pictured:

http://members.aol.com/catmanstu/comickeys.jpg

[AceVentura]

Hey, wait a minute...how did YOU know that that's how it went down! :confused:

It's in your feedback

[AceVentura]

Oh happy day that'll be, but I'm with you on this one, monopolies are hard to break.

WHY?? :confused: That would stick a dagger in the hobby.



True. But then, a razor sharp corner on a background field of interior paper instead of a scanner bed, is a little hard to dismiss.

False. From now on when I see razor sharp corners on S.A. Marvels in Ebay auction scans, I'll link them. Then you tell me what we're looking at.


I don't wear pants.

Alllllllllllllll-righty then. From now on, when I post, the kid-gloves AND the pants come off.



The emails I received from the buyer made it clear that he has little or no interest or motivation in sending the book to CGC. He didn't even know how to begin going about the process. "Perry" and I attempted to intervene and submit the book for him, but I never received a response back from the buyer after the offer to submit it for him. I can't blame him. I wouldn't send a book off ot a perfect stranger with a name like "Charlton Guy". Then "Perry" sent me a $7,500 wager proposal to send the guy to Sarasota in a high-fallutin' Jet and Limo package. I declined the upping of the wager, but I am willing to continue with the $416 original wager amount. IF "Perry" can get the book submitted (I will still pay for the submittal, of course).

Sounds like Perry was confident and was trying to do anything he could to get that book to CGC.


I see a lot of your books too. And I see that "Perry's" account was limited to buying only up to April 2007, when it abruptly shifts gears to a selling account only. Right around the time ebay enacted their "No Private Feedback for Sellers" policy. Interesting timing.

It's a good thing I'm allowed to post here to clear up errors made to support circumstantial evidence. CK's last auctions were run in SEPTEMBER, 2006. That's a full SEVEN months before April, 2007. That's far from "abrupt'.



That is very interesting, and yes, I do see a lot of familiar names on his buyer's list, but amazing isn't it? Your seller name (Comic-Keys) isn't there at all. Yet "Perry" came right out and said that he had purchased numerous books from you, and even gave item numbers for books of yours that he had sold. It's all very confusing.

Again, you use the word "numerous". In the post you included here that was deleted from the Ebay discussion board, the word he used was "some", not "numerous".
Also, there was a long period where I COULDN'T and WOULDN'T leave feedback for a buyer. Go ahead and try to find them. See how many feedbacks you can find left by CK for buyers from 2004 on. You know how many you'll find? A big goose egg.



Again, if you, sorry..."Perry" can convince the buyer of the F.F. 23 to submit it, either by himself, or through "Perry", I will pay the shipping and submittal fees and I too will sit with baited breath. Not like worm breath or something, you know what I mean.

No. Perry's not here. And if he were, you'd have no problem recognizing him. He'd be the only one in the room wearing pants.

[AceVentura]

So CG, you never told me your view on this subject.

You go into a store or any merchant to return something, and you choose as your remedy getting back your money instead of an exchange or replacement. The item cost you $1000 and you get your $1000 back.

A year later, for whatever reason, the item's price (that you returned) has increased to $2000. The unfathomable happens and somehow, you start to think that the store or merchant owes you ANOTHER $1000, and you march right back down there and demand that if they don't give you an extra $1000 OVER what they refunded, PLUS $10,000 "punitive damages" (to keep quiet), you're going to blab to the other stores or merchants about how they ripped you off for $11,000.

What do you think? How optimistic does that sound to you?

[The Charlton Guy]

So CG, you never told me your view on this subject.

You go into a store or any merchant to return something, and you choose as your remedy getting back your money instead of an exchange or replacement. The item cost you $1000 and you get your $1000 back.

A year later, for whatever reason, the item's price (that you returned) has increased to $2000. The unfathomable happens and somehow, you start to think that the store or merchant owes you ANOTHER $1000, and you march right back down there and demand that if they don't give you an extra $1000 OVER what they refunded, PLUS $10,000 "punitive damages" (to keep quiet), you're going to blab to the other stores or merchants about how they ripped you off for $11,000.

What do you think? How optimistic does that sound to you?

Awfully grumpy today, aren't we?

[AceVentura]

Be on the lookout for this man, hopefully just as pictured:

http://members.aol.com/catmanstu/comickeys.jpg

Be on the lookout? What are you supposed to do if you see him? Secretly follow him and bleach any fish that you suspect may be registered in his name? What if you spot him at the beach and don't have enough bleach?

[The Charlton Guy]

From now on, when I post, the kid-gloves AND the pants come off.



Look, whatever turns you on.

[AceVentura]

Awfully grumpy today, aren't we?

Not grumpy at all. I'm pleased as punch that I'm getting a fair shake on this forum. I just stated an analogy. Nothing angry there whatsoever.

And you're very sensitive today and not your usual verbosely jovial self. Maybe you've chafed yourself and need to put the pants back on for a few hours? :D

And you still haven't given me your view on the "$1000 return/refund, ripped off for $11,000" scenario. I'm just curious if you thought the reasoning behind that is logical and wanted your input on the Buggsy situation.

[AceVentura]

Here's an auction image from Ebay. The spine corners are razor sharp. Is it trimmed?

[AceVentura]

Here's an auction image from Ebay. The top edge is razor sharp and is negatively concave. Is it trimmed?

[disneyteddies]

Hey Hoss..looks like we have another saga at the corral for the memoirs!

[bugsy]

Ive only got time for 1 post tonight so Danny stop putting up stupid scans and please do as i ask. You are very good at ignoring requests when you know it would be damaging. Off the top of my head you was asked by flyingdonut on the CGC boards to put up a scan of your medical certificate(yes folks Danny use to call himself DOCTOR Richard Koos. I'll put up the e-mails later) and you didnt do it. Then i think it was FFB on the STL boards that asked you for a 300? dpi scan to prove your scans were doctored(Oh is that what you meant by Doctor) but again you would provide one. There are lots more examples but Danny/Richard/Perry Stroud/Sam Mcloud/Girls Aloud or whatever his name is for tonight isnt stupid. If its not in his best interests he doesnt want to know. I am probably therefore wasting my time here but ill try again. Can you put up the e-mail that you sent me that i asked for yesterday. Ill give you a helping hand. The first line is something like:-

T, wether its 3 minutes, 3 years or 30 years old

Come on, come on its not difficult. Im not asking you to recite the Gettysburg address. Put the e-mail up so we can discuss it. Oh and by the way i cant be bothered to read everything you write its far too much waffle and lifes too short. I will say your synopsis is more like an Epilogue. I will give the correct version hopefully tomorrow.

[stupidman]

Be on the lookout? What are you supposed to do if you see him? Secretly follow him and bleach any fish that you suspect may be registered in his name? What if you spot him at the beach and don't have enough bleach?

I'd like to meet him under a bridge in Brooklyn with a bag of cash and have a fight to the death!

[stupidman]

Ive only got time for 1 post tonight so Danny stop putting up stupid scans and please do as i ask. You are very good at ignoring requests when you know it would be damaging. Off the top of my head you was asked by flyingdonut on the CGC boards to put up a scan of your medical certificate(yes folks Danny use to call himself DOCTOR Richard Koos. I'll put up the e-mails later) and you didnt do it. Then i think it was FFB on the STL boards that asked you for a 300? dpi scan to prove your scans were doctored(Oh is that what you meant by Doctor) but again you would provide one. There are lots more examples but Danny/Richard/Perry Stroud/Sam Mcloud/Girls Aloud or whatever his name is for tonight isnt stupid. If its not in his best interests he doesnt want to know. I am probably therefore wasting my time here but ill try again. Can you put up the e-mail that you sent me that i asked for yesterday. Ill give you a helping hand. The first line is something like:-

T, wether its 3 minutes, 3 years or 30 years old

Come on, come on its not difficult. Im not asking you to recite the Gettysburg address. Put the e-mail up so we can discuss it. Oh and by the way i cant be bothered to read everything you write its far too much waffle and lifes too short. I will say your synopsis is more like an Epilogue. I will give the correct version hopefully tomorrow.

Ask him about the time his kid (7 year old?) got on Photoshop and altered one of his scans, and then he uploaded it to his auction without checking it. LMAO!

[Blufalkn2]

Back to killing the fish again? Come on guys, don't make me call PETA or greenpeace on you!

And to answer your question, there's no way someone could have enough bleach to kill all the fish in the ocean!

Sheesh!!, who could possibly think that?

[The Charlton Guy]

Here's an auction image from Ebay. The top corner is razor sharp, but the bottom left is slightly rounded and just a touch worn. The right hand side is also sharp as a razor. Only 1/32" or so of the right hand side interior pages/edges are evident at the top right, with a slight curvature of the edge in this corner as well, but almost 1/4" of the interior is visible on the bottom right. With a rear biased cut and no staples evident on the front cover or spine.

Is it trimmed?


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/FantasticFour23-1.jpg

Again, I'll pay the CGC submittal fee and shipping to find out.

"What say you Little Corral Grasshoppers?"

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/po.jpg

"Is it trimmed?"

[AceVentura]

Ive only got time for 1 post tonight so Danny stop putting up stupid scans and please do as i ask.

Danny didn't post anything or deal with you. Did you pay Danny for the books? Did Danny meet with you at some local pub to conduct the transaction? What stupid scans?


You are very good at ignoring requests when you know it would be damaging.

What ignored requests? You mentioned emails. I posted them exactly as sent and received. Don't they match YOUR emials PRECISELY?

What other requests am I ignoring? I've answered all questions asked and given ALOT more, haven't I?


Off the top of my head you was asked by flyingdonut on the CGC boards to put up a scan of your medical certificate

PURE bullshit. I didn't ask anybody to post medical certificates. I would have gladly posted anything I wanted posted myself.


(yes folks Danny use to call himself DOCTOR Richard Koos. I'll put up the e-mails later) and you didnt do it.

Danny didn't call himself anything as far as I know.


There are lots more examples but Danny/Richard/Perry Stroud/Sam Mcloud/Girls Aloud or whatever his name is for tonight isnt stupid.

Danny is ALL of these people? Are YOU Danny too?


If its not in his best interests he doesnt want to know. I am probably therefore wasting my time here but ill try again.

Whose best interests? Danny, Perry, Mccloud, Girls Aloud, Snakes Alive, or ME?


Can you put up the e-mail that you sent me that i asked for yesterday. Ill give you a helping hand. The first line is something like:-

I thought I put up enough emails to explain this whole mess lucidly. Do you want me to litter the thread and put up what will amount to about 20 forum pages worth of Ilkin, Turhan, and CK emails? Alot of them are repetitive. If you want to see them all, I don't mind. Maybe Hoss will mind wasting 20 pages of forum space when the 10 or so are a perfectly condensed version of every facet of this refunded deal.



Come on, come on its not difficult. Im not asking you to recite the Gettysburg address. Put the e-mail up so we can discuss it. Oh and by the way i cant be bothered to read everything you write its far too much waffle and lifes too short. I will say your synopsis is more like an Epilogue. I will give the correct version hopefully tomorrow.

The "correct" version?????? :confused: Are you saying that the emails I posted are FABRICATED? They follow the synopsis PERFECTLY. All anyone has to do is read through them for a very clear understanding of from day 1 to the last extortion emails.

[marvelguy]

I'm getting a headache about who is this person......Danny....Perry....Richard.....damn, my head hurts...I don't even know who is this pet detective dude is?

[The Charlton Guy]

So CG, you never told me your view on this subject.

You go into a store or any merchant to return something, and you choose as your remedy getting back your money instead of an exchange or replacement. The item cost you $1000 and you get your $1000 back.?

So let me get this straight. You paid back Turhan 100% of his winning bid? Is that what you're saying? Those emails were so convoluted that I am having a hard time making heads or tails of them. So I ask again, you paid him back 100% of the winning bid amount?


A year later, for whatever reason, the item's price (that you returned) has increased to $2000.

The unfathomable happens and somehow, you start to think that the store or merchant owes you ANOTHER $1000, and you march right back down there and demand that if they don't give you an extra $1000 OVER what they refunded, PLUS $10,000 "punitive damages" (to keep quiet), you're going to blab to the other stores or merchants about how they ripped you off for $11,000.

I would find that unacceptable and would not give the buyer another cent above and beyond the original paid price of the item and in your case, any shipping and restoration verification expenses that were required in order to discern whether your wares were trimmed or otherwise restored.


What do you think? How optimistic does that sound to you?

I'm not sure what you mean by "opmimistic", but if that is the scenario, I repeat, it is unacceptable.

But I also ask again, you are saying that you refunded Turhan and/or his brother 100% of the winning bid amount?

[The Charlton Guy]

It's a good thing I'm allowed to post here to clear up errors made to support circumstantial evidence. CK's last auctions were run in SEPTEMBER, 2006. That's a full SEVEN months before April, 2007. That's far from "abrupt'.



My bad, you're right, it was in September (or was it early November?) when ebay instituted the "No Private Feedback" for sellers. My, how time flies...

And what? No auctions for you since? Had to take a little breather?

[AceVentura]

I'm the pet detective. I've got 45 fish remains and a pondfull of bleached and ammoniated water under investigation. I might clean it out and restock the pond as bait, then lie in wait, in the dark. 100 baby goldfish/feeders are only $5.99 at any pet store. A small price to pay to solve the case.

[AceVentura]

So let me get this straight. You paid back Turhan 100% of his winning bid? Is that what you're saying? Those emails were so convoluted that I am having a hard time making heads or tails of them. So I ask again, you paid him back 100% of the winning bid amount?

Yes. All done by paypal and bank transfers. The exact amount I received (NOT taking out the 4 to 5% paypal took on each payment I received, which I accept and absorb as a cost of doing business) in payments from Ilkin in US Dollars was fully refunded in US dollars. I have records of receiving the exact amount that records show was returned, to the penny. Ilkin was satisfied that all the money had been returned. That wasn't disputed and I sent Ilkin the paypal logs of each refund payment I made, which he acknowledged.

The money Turhan demanded was purely hush-money and had nothing to do with the refund payments which had all added up to the exact amount of the payments received. .

Shouldn't we already KNOW that is the way I do business? Ask ANY of the people who gave testimonials on Old Guys'd CGC backed CK hate site. Ask them if I gave them back PART of their money or ALL of it.


I would find that unacceptable and would not give the buyer another cent above and beyond the original paid price of the item and in your case, any shipping and restoration verification expenses that were required in order to discern whether your wares were trimmed or otherwise restored.

I found that unacceptible too. Which is why I didn't cave into his demands for an extra $150,000. Three of four books that later found their way to CGC for future submission were BLUE labeled.


I'm not sure what you mean by "opmimistic", but if that is the scenario, I repeat, it is unacceptable.

EXACTLY!


But I also ask again, you are saying that you refunded Turhan and/or his brother 100% of the winning bid amount?

You don't have to ask again and you know my words have the ring of truth about this deal. Am I a friggin' idiot? The guy returns books and I'm going to deliberately antagonize him by ripping him off for ALL of his due refund? Does that sound like CK to you?

One thing that OldGuy's CGC backed hate site proves is that if there's a problem, it's taken care of in its entirety. Nespa?

Just to be on the safe side, I'll find the exact emails where Ilkin agrees that he's been completely paid off and says so. This $150,000 that Turhan maintains I owe him had nothing to do with the books. The books were bought for less than HALF of that amount. $150,000 has no bearing in reality on ANY facet of this deal except as an extortion demand AFTER the refund had already been made and Ilkin acknowledged it.

[AceVentura]

Back to killing the fish again? Come on guys, don't make me call PETA or greenpeace on you!

And to answer your question, there's no way someone could have enough bleach to kill all the fish in the ocean!

Sheesh!!, who could possibly think that?

It was sarcasm.

[marvelguy]

I knew it! The classic signs of false redemption.

[Blufalkn2]

It was sarcasm.

Your kidding right? Like my comment wasn't?

[Hoss]

I wanted to cut in here for a moment and remind everyone to please try and keep the language clean.

[The Charlton Guy]

Thanks for editing out your own profanity. I appreciate it.

Let's remember that we do get our share of kids coming to the Corral, if nothing else to play in the Arcade.

I just want to reinforce Hoss's no profanity policy and say that any posts containing profanity may be edited by the Moderators (for profanity only).

Thanks!

C.G.

[AceVentura]

What a revolting development. There goes the neighborhood. It's like when WINS suddenly switched from top 40 to all news with nary a warning.

[Blufalkn2]

Like sands through the hourglass.........

[bugsy]

O.K then i'll call you Doctor Richard koos from now on. If that isnt your name either do LMK. Im just tying up a few loose ends here and then i'll be back with a proper response. In the meantime there are just a few things i want to say. First of all some of your replies to my questions were strange to say the least. I will come back to go through them 1 by 1 tomorrow. I will say though that your answer that starts with PURE BULLSHIT is one of the strangest answers to a question i have EVER read. Is this what others mean when they say you spread misinformation. Also these 3 out of 4 books that came back blue i take it you have scans of them or asked for scans of them if it was somebody else who sent them in(i cant be bothered to go back and read your reply). If so put them up so i can have a look and make sure they are the same copies, believe me i will tell if they are not, and just out of interest which one was supposedly the only restored copy. No doubt you are going to say it was one of the cheaper books but thats o.k. because i sent a scan of one of them to a real expert and he told me why it was trimmed. Finally stop giving stupid answers to a question i have asked a few times now. Read this carefully o.k. Stop calling me a blackmailer and an extortionist and put up the e-mail that starts off:-


T,
Whether it's 3 minutes, 3 years, or 30 years

Do you think you can do that. Dont start mentioning other e-mails, it will take 20 pages etc etc just put up the e-mail ive asked you to so that everyone can see the REAL REASON why i made these demands.

[AceVentura]

O.K then i'll call you Doctor Richard koos from now on. If that isnt your name either do LMK. Im just tying up a few loose ends here and then i'll be back with a proper response. In the meantime there are just a few things i want to say. First of all some of your replies to my questions were strange to say the least. I will come back to go through them 1 by 1 tomorrow. I will say though that your answer that starts with PURE BULLSHIT is one of the strangest answers to a question i have EVER read. Is this what others mean when they say you spread misinformation. Also these 3 out of 4 books that came back blue i take it you have scans of them or asked for scans of them if it was somebody else who sent them in(i cant be bothered to go back and read your reply). If so put them up so i can have a look and make sure they are the same copies, believe me i will tell if they are not, and just out of interest which one was supposedly the only restored copy. No doubt you are going to say it was one of the cheaper books but thats o.k. because i sent a scan of one of them to a real expert and he told me why it was trimmed. Finally stop giving stupid answers to a question i have asked a few times now. Read this carefully o.k. Stop calling me a blackmailer and an extortionist and put up the e-mail that starts off:-


T,
Whether it's 3 minutes, 3 years, or 30 years

That's the name for what you did. "Give me this or I'm going to see to it that you are ruined". Then, you stated a price for your silence. $150,000 had no bearing on the purchase price of the books. Your demands for $150,000 or you would do this and that were quite clear.

That's extortion in ANY legal circles. I showed an acquaintance, who is a judge, your emails. He couldn't believe that you would actually put such a thing in writing! Don't you remember writing you about the exact penal codes you violated? You didn't look them up? You stopped communicating with me immediately after that email. I had assumed that you knew full well that you had committed a crime and created a real problem for yourself if criminal action was initiated on it. And you know what? It isn't too late. The statute of limitation on your crime hasn't run out!

SCANS again. You sent a SCAN to an expert for analysis? Not the book. A scan? Your expert determined that it was trimmed from a SCAN? There are thousands of posts on the CGC forum from people who say, "you CAN'T tell for sure from a scan". There are others who state, "You CAN tell". Which one did you send the scan to? Someone who CAN tell or CAN'T tell? Or someone who THINKS he can tell from a SCAN?

What's strange here is that when you first talked to CK, you stated, "I bought books from someone and he sold me TRIMMED and RESTORED books. Is that true?

PURE BULLCRAP was the answer to the charge that CK still owed either YOU or Ilkin, the buyer, any money not paid on the refund. You said that CK did. CK has emails from Ilkin, the purchaser, who states otherwise. CG asked if it was true that CK still owes Buggsy a refund. The answer to that question is bullcrap.

It's not a refund that is outstanding here. A refund was made. There are no additional funds due. Paid in full, refunded in full. Your $150,000 extortion try, tip, punitive damages, or what not, wasn't.

A $150,000 bonus wasn't part of the original purchase refund guarantee if one had to be exercised. If a seller had to include a triple your money bonus clause with every sale of a raw book, it would be in the buyer's best interest to trim it himself to triple his money quickly. Nobody offers restoration related refund bonuses for that reason. No bonuses or penalties were agreed upon as a condition of the sale.

The buyer agreed to a money back refund limited to his purchase price of the books. That's exactly what the buyer received. All records show that and were confrimed by the buyer.

[ciorac]

O.K then i'll call you Doctor Richard koos from now on. If that isnt your name either do LMK. Im just tying up a few loose ends here and then i'll be back with a proper response. In the meantime there are just a few things i want to say. First of all some of your replies to my questions were strange to say the least. I will come back to go through them 1 by 1 tomorrow. I will say though that your answer that starts with PURE BULLSHIT is one of the strangest answers to a question i have EVER read. Is this what others mean when they say you spread misinformation. Also these 3 out of 4 books that came back blue i take it you have scans of them or asked for scans of them if it was somebody else who sent them in(i cant be bothered to go back and read your reply). If so put them up so i can have a look and make sure they are the same copies, believe me i will tell if they are not, and just out of interest which one was supposedly the only restored copy. No doubt you are going to say it was one of the cheaper books but thats o.k. because i sent a scan of one of them to a real expert and he told me why it was trimmed. Finally stop giving stupid answers to a question i have asked a few times now. Read this carefully o.k. Stop calling me a blackmailer and an extortionist and put up the e-mail that starts off:-


T,
Whether it's 3 minutes, 3 years, or 30 years

Do you think you can do that. Dont start mentioning other e-mails, it will take 20 pages etc etc just put up the e-mail ive asked you to so that everyone can see the REAL REASON why i made these demands.

He obviously doesn't want to post it. Why don't you post it and end the supsense?#popcorn#

[The Charlton Guy]

He obviously doesn't want to post it. Why don't you post it and end the supsense?#popcorn#

#popcorn#Hi Ciorac...#popcorn#How's it goin'?...#popcorn#

[marvelguy]

Hi Ciorac...ahem...Welcome to the Corral.

[AceVentura]

He obviously doesn't want to post it. Why don't you post it and end the supsense?#popcorn#

I thought I posted this already? I have over 300 emails saved to and from Ilkin and Turhan. I'll be damned if I'm going to read through each and every one of them looking for key phrases.

Anyway, Hello Ciorac, and I didn't mean to be gruff. I thought I posted the emails that beautifully explain all the facets of the deal and Turhan's extortion threats made after the fact.

You know what? Never mind. I'll post ALL of them. I'll put up 25 or 30 per day until they're all up, then you can all decide if Turhan's demands for $150,000 are for a refund, or for blackmail.

[zuckuss2003]

Try searching the word whether, how often does someone write "whether".

I would say everyone is getting involved because it really does sound like you are dodgy. Long winded retorts but no substance or actual responses to questions.

[AceVentura]

Try searching the word whether, how often does someone write "whether".

I would say everyone is getting involved because it really does sound like you are dodgy. Long winded retorts but no substance or actual responses to questions.

That's not true at all! What better testimony can I present than to post the emails themselves? They clearly state the details. My words are just the liner notes based on the text of the emails. In them, you can see the exact words and details that were stated by both parties involved without a loss in translation.

Turhan says CK owes him $150,000. The emails tell a different story.

Turhan says CK didn't pay back all of the refund. The emails contradict that.

What about this is dodgy? I have a feeling that if I answered one million questions concerning transactions, someone would still say I'm being "dodgy". I'm under the microscope. Have been since 2001. I'm here to clarify misconceptions. Not further cloud them, or I wouldn't waste my time. And I have all emails and transaction data to back up my word. The evidence I've posted, in the form of our emails, is anything but dodgy.

And BTW, one point I haven't heard mentioned is that Daniel has his OWN Ebay account. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that. Daniel has also advertised on Craigslist offering music instruction for YEARS. That hasn't been mentioned either.

The things that seem to take the foreground in mentioning are circumstantial. Things that bolster conceptions. The things that weaken the misconceptions are neglected.

[oxbladder]

I think I got a brain tumor from trying to understand this thread. Hammer you sure are a master of misinformation ... or at least befuddling a reader with so much banter and changing facts that one can barely keep the story straight.

You should get together with "the shadow knows" from the CGC forums you two would make a great pair.

[zuckuss2003]

You did post emails, a slew of them, all of which are the exact ones you want us to see, where is this one email that buggsy is asking you to post?

[The Charlton Guy]

I'm here to clarify misconceptions. Not further cloud them, or I wouldn't waste my time.

Well I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but it ain't workin'.


And BTW, one point I haven't heard mentioned is that Daniel has his OWN Ebay account.

Oh do tell!


I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that. Daniel has also advertised on Craigslist offering music instruction for YEARS. That hasn't been mentioned either.

What does he teach? Tuba?


The things that seem to take the foreground in mentioning are circumstantial. Things that bolster conceptions. The things that weaken the misconceptions are neglected.

I agree completely, and I am trying to help in that respect, but so far that ain't workin' either.

Perhaps it's because everybody and their brother feels justified and self-rightous in making you out to be a boogey-man, or perhaps it's because your posts are so obtuse and sometimes downright indecipherable as to what is true and what is a lie.

[AceVentura]

Listen, Here's an easy solution. Let's ask Buggsy exactly what CK STILL owes him. He says that he didn't get back the whole refund and was stiffed for $150,000 of it, right?

Can we agree on that being his CLAIM?

So here's my questions to Buggsy:

Ilkin paid Keys $72,000 + change for 4 books. That's what all the receipts show.

How much did Ilkin get back? ALL of the $72,000, some of it, or none of it?

And if the total money Ilkin spent was only $72,000 + change, HOW in the name of God can you demand $150,000 extra when that figure alone is more than DOUBLE the amount of money that CK received from Ilkin, not to mention that the $72,000 + change was all returned already?

Where does that extra $150,000 demand, above and beyond the purchase price of the books come from?

Maybe if you can explain this, we won't need to post anymore emails and can get on with the public flogging.

[The Charlton Guy]

"Answer me this before I am forced to call in Carstairs Baggley Jr.!!!"


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/flogging.jpg


"Exactly where do you store your color-touch implements!"

[StlComics]

"Answer me this before I am forced to call in Carstairs Baggley Jr.!!!"

LOL! http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/applaud.gif

[AceVentura]

I agree completely, and I am trying to help in that respect, but so far that ain't workin' either.

Perhaps it's because everybody and their brother feels justified and self-rightous in making you out to be a boogey-man, or perhaps it's because your posts are so obtuse and sometimes downright indecipherable as to what is true and what is a lie.

You say that you're trying to help but it's a half-hearted effort.

Maybe the fault is mine. I think my communication skills are quite refined. I'm doing my best to answer all questions honestly and with explanations. I'm showing emails where pertanent.

Maybe I'm not as good a communicator as I think I am and my posts lack something I'm not aware of, but it's not intentional.

.........................

I'll do all I can to help.

For almost a week I've spent every day searching emails and posting here. I have other things to take care of and I'm not running out. I just have other things to take care of which have suffered in the meantime and must be taken care of, and can't spend every waking hour sitting here being interrogated and made the brunt of jokes.

I'll be back.

[AceVentura]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AceVentura http://www.comicscorral.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.comicscorral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17353#post17353)
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that. Daniel has also advertised on Craigslist offering music instruction for YEARS. That hasn't been mentioned either.

What does he teach? Tuba?

**********************

No. piano, jazz improvisation, and composition. Daniel is an extremely accomplished jazz and classical pianist:

http://d.turboupload.com/d/1410287/R1_0010.MP3.html

http://d.turboupload.com/d/229801/R1_0001.MP3.html

I believe he has two degrees in music.

[disneyteddies]

Man CG...there ain't a stick big enough to scrape this off your shoe...LoL.

[iron maniac]

You should get together with "the shadow knows" from the CGC forums you two would make a great pair.
http://boards.collectors-society.com/images/graemlins/default/sign-funnypost.gif

[AceVentura]

http://boards.collectors-society.com/images/graemlins/default/sign-funnypost.gif

Maybe I'm the Shadow Knows too. I may as well be. I've been accused of being nearly everybody else, from Comic*seller on down.

[oxbladder]

Aaron is tired of reading this thread. He says that he wishes he could get his life back. He also hates writing in the third person but it seems to be the growing trend these days .... especially if you are pretending to be someone else.

Dwayne

PS I am typing this for Aaron because he is presently hard at work pretending to be Dwayne.

[bugsy]

He obviously doesn't want to post it. Why don't you post it and end the supsense?#popcorn#

Right ive had enough of this. I gave Danny plenty of time to put this e-mail up but he just wouldnt and now you will see why:-

T,
Whether it's 3 minutes, 3 years, or 30 years, the dealer SHOULD make good on the books represented to you as unrestored id it was clearly made understood to you by him that the books you were buying WERE to be unrestored copies. I have NO idea what the legal ramifications are of this, but I do know that you should have a strong case against him if what I said above is so. I don't have any idea on how to proceed BUT I would imagine that CGC's opinion, if push came to shove, because of the evasive wording on the back of the label, "a good faith effort is made to detect restoration, but CGC does NOT warrant the process or results". What are they really saying here? "Don't blame us if we're wrong because we could be"? That's the way HIS lawyer would interpret it, in playing Devil's Advocate here. Get ANOTHER opinion. Contact Tracey Hoeft at Eclipse Paper Restoration. Let HIM examine the books for restoration, and let him save the CGC holders and reports of restoration, at least that way you have BACKUP expert opinion. THAT may be enough to warrant a legal case if he won't make good, which he should! And you don't JUST want your money back! YOU WANT what those books should have been worth now IF you had gotten what you paid for, or THOUGHT you were getting what you paid for! You have a RIGHT to that. You paid your money at a time when the market was more speculative and guessed right. You have every right to expect a return on your investment and NOW because the books are faulty, you have nothing and no profit. NO GOOD! He has ALOT of making up to do and should do the right thing or you SHOULD see a lawyer!!! Which dealer? I WILL keep it between you and I if you tell me, I can assure of that. My word is GOLD! I only ask because if I know who, I may be able to suggest more avenues to explore to spur him into making good should you encounter a problem. Time, in this case, is NOT a factor. It's not a question of you buying a piece and the grade is off. In THAT case it's YOUR error you must now live with. THIS is a case where the item was faulty, now HE must make good and live with it as this was HIS error or deception. -Richard (I'm here if you need help).

Even though i have saved all my e-mails i paid particular attention to this one just in case i needed it sometime in the future. When the books were found to be restored i sent him his e-mail. I told him that i totally agreed 100% with what he said in this e-mail and that HE too has a lot of making up to do and must do the right thing i.e pay him the full value of the books. I told Danny that Ilkin DID pay his money when the market was more speculative and guessed right. I also told him that he DOES have a right to expect a return on his investement and HE too make good and live with HIS error or Deception(in his case deception). Basically i threw this e-mail right back at him. I then asked a friend to find out the values of an Unrestored NM copies of Amazing Fantasy #15, Amazing Spiderman #1, Amazing Spiderman 19 and Amazing Spiderman #34. I then remembered the AF #15 that Danny sold for $117,000 a few years earlier and because he said that Ilkins book was sililar in condition i thought that a figure of $150,000 was more than fair. If anything the figure was UNDER the value of the books. Of course when you throw Danny's OWN WORDS back at him he doesnt like it. Suddenly this does not apply to him and he came up with excuses as to why it doesnt. Whatever steps i took Danny was NEVER going to pay the full unrestored value of the books like he thinks others should do. There is plenty more i have to say on this matter but i have to dash. I just wanted to dispell this 'Hush money' theory that Danny keeps gleefully coming up with. If i had asked for a million dollars yes THAT would have been extortion but i didnt i asked for the value of the books as per his email. If anybody has any questions please feel free to ask.

[The Charlton Guy]

Just a brief notice for you Ace.

There will be no more posting regarding your family dispute or custody battle.

If you do so, you will be banned.

If any new accounts are created to post regarding these subjects, you will be banned and the new accounts and any posts made by these new accounts will be banned.

I have removed the other Thread that contained much in the way of personal information that quite honestly, nobody wants to know.

I have likewise edited out all personal information and names associated with this issue from this thread. If I missed anything, please edit it out yourselves or bring it to my attention.

I ask that all other Corral Members also refrain from posting regarding these personal family issues and that they likewise refrain from grilling Ace as to his "true identity".

Ace, if you want to remain, fine. But it is a fine line you (we) are walking.

[aarondawe]

Aaron is tired of reading this thread. He says that he wishes he could get his life back. He also hates writing in the third person but it seems to be the growing trend these days .... especially if you are pretending to be someone else.

Dwayne

PS I am typing this for Aaron because he is presently hard at work pretending to be Dwayne.

This post really made my head hurt as I don't recall writing any of this.

Aaron

[oxbladder]

heh. It does get confusing with two Aarons from Canada posting. Thanks God Dwayne is around to keep things straight.

[OldGuy]

On that note, I'll be logging off of these boards. If anyone needs to contact me you can find my e-mail address in my profile on the CGC boards.

[bugsy]

Ive had an e-mail asking if my brother Ilkin was offered a replacement copy for the Amazing Fantasy #15 like Ace said. Well im an honest guy so i'll give an honest answer. Ace did say he would replace it and when Ilkin showed me the e-mail my reaction was http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif

No seriously it was. I had a complete laughing fit. In fact i was so weak with laughter that Ilkin had to help me off the floor and sit me down in a chair. What Danny didnt realise was the Andrew Knight(Captains of Industry) had already posted a testimonial on oldguys site which is here if anybody wants to read it:-

http://www.justafanboy.com/ComicKeys/testimonials.htm

For those that dont Basically Andrew bought an Avengers #1 VF/NM9.00++ in Guaranteed Unrestored condition(well what do you know Ilkins was supposed to be in unrestored condition as well), but it WAS found to be restored. Danny offered to replace it with a better copy and Andrew accepted. When he gave it to Peter of Paradise Comics who inspected it the first time round he told Andrew the 2nd copy has also been restored. I have no doubt that Danny would just have sent another RESTORED copy of an Amazing Fantasy #15 so i advised Ilkin to say no. As far as i was concerned Danny had his chance when he said the first copy was supposed to be Guaranteed Unrestored and wasnt so there was to be no second chance for somebody that i did not trust AT ALL. Hope that answers your question.

[AceVentura]

Aaron is tired of reading this thread. He says that he wishes he could get his life back. He also hates writing in the third person but it seems to be the growing trend these days .... especially if you are pretending to be someone else.

Dwayne

PS I am typing this for Aaron because he is presently hard at work pretending to be Dwayne.

Who's Aaron?

[AceVentura]

Just a brief notice for you Ace.

There will be no more posting regarding your family dispute or custody battle.

If you do so, you will be banned.

If any new accounts are created to post regarding these subjects, you will be banned and the new accounts and any posts made by these new accounts will be banned.

I have removed the other Thread that contained much in the way of personal information that quite honestly, nobody wants to know.

I have likewise edited out all personal information and names associated with this issue from this thread. If I missed anything, please edit it out yourselves or bring it to my attention.

I ask that all other Corral Members also refrain from posting regarding these personal family issues and that they likewise refrain from grilling Ace as to his "true identity".

Ace, if you want to remain, fine. But it is a fine line you (we) are walking.

CG, it wasn't me that brought up "family" business. All of my posts from this day forth will contain subject matter and text only all relevant to comics. This way nobody has any excuses to ban me for anything else other than my trying to answer questions and defend myself.

There is a history on most message boards of banning members for doing just that. It seems that when doormats grow lips and a voice box, there's many who have a problem with that.

[AceVentura]

Ive had an e-mail asking if my brother Ilkin was offered a replacement copy for the Amazing Fantasy #15 like Ace said. Well im an honest guy so i'll give an honest answer. Ace did say he would replace it and when Ilkin showed me the e-mail my reaction was http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif http://forum.stlcomics.com/images/smiles/rofl.gif

The offer WAS made, but the buyer chose a return for the purchase price as his remedy.



For those that dont Basically Andrew bought an Avengers #1 VF/NM9.00++ in Guaranteed Unrestored condition(well what do you know Ilkins was supposed to be in unrestored condition as well), but it WAS found to be restored. Danny offered to replace it with a better copy and Andrew accepted. When he gave it to Peter of Paradise Comics who inspected it the first time round he told Andrew the 2nd copy has also been restored. I have no doubt that Danny would just have sent another RESTORED copy of an Amazing Fantasy #15 so i advised Ilkin to say no. As far as i was concerned Danny had his chance when he said the first copy was supposed to be Guaranteed Unrestored and wasnt so there was to be no second chance for somebody that i did not trust AT ALL. Hope that answers your question.

That's an assumption that you "would have received another restored AF#15". Not a fact that it happened and you did receive a 2nd restored copy.

One of those two Avengers #1s that were identified by Paradise as restored was later sent to CGC and graded 8.0 UNIVERSAL.

[AceVentura]

Right ive had enough of this. I gave Danny plenty of time to put this e-mail up but he just wouldnt and now you will see why:-

T,
Whether it's 3 minutes, 3 years, or 30 years, the dealer SHOULD make good on the books represented to you as unrestored id it was clearly made understood to you by him that the books you were buying WERE to be unrestored copies. I have NO idea what the legal ramifications are of this, but I do know that you should have a strong case against him if what I said above is so. I don't have any idea on how to proceed BUT I would imagine that CGC's opinion, if push came to shove, because of the evasive wording on the back of the label, "a good faith effort is made to detect restoration, but CGC does NOT warrant the process or results". What are they really saying here? "Don't blame us if we're wrong because we could be"? That's the way HIS lawyer would interpret it, in playing Devil's Advocate here. Get ANOTHER opinion. Contact Tracey Hoeft at Eclipse Paper Restoration. Let HIM examine the books for restoration, and let him save the CGC holders and reports of restoration, at least that way you have BACKUP expert opinion. THAT may be enough to warrant a legal case if he won't make good, which he should! And you don't JUST want your money back! YOU WANT what those books should have been worth now IF you had gotten what you paid for, or THOUGHT you were getting what you paid for! You have a RIGHT to that. You paid your money at a time when the market was more speculative and guessed right. You have every right to expect a return on your investment and NOW because the books are faulty, you have nothing and no profit. NO GOOD! He has ALOT of making up to do and should do the right thing or you SHOULD see a lawyer!!! Which dealer? I WILL keep it between you and I if you tell me, I can assure of that. My word is GOLD! I only ask because if I know who, I may be able to suggest more avenues to explore to spur him into making good should you encounter a problem. Time, in this case, is NOT a factor. It's not a question of you buying a piece and the grade is off. In THAT case it's YOUR error you must now live with. THIS is a case where the item was faulty, now HE must make good and live with it as this was HIS error or deception. -Richard (I'm here if you need help).

Even though i have saved all my e-mails i paid particular attention to this one just in case i needed it sometime in the future. When the books were found to be restored i sent him his e-mail. I told him that i totally agreed 100&#37; with what he said in this e-mail and that HE too has a lot of making up to do and must do the right thing i.e pay him the full value of the books. I told Danny that Ilkin DID pay his money when the market was more speculative and guessed right. I also told him that he DOES have a right to expect a return on his investement and HE too make good and live with HIS error or Deception(in his case deception). Basically i threw this e-mail right back at him. I then asked a friend to find out the values of an Unrestored NM copies of Amazing Fantasy #15, Amazing Spiderman #1, Amazing Spiderman 19 and Amazing Spiderman #34. I then remembered the AF #15 that Danny sold for $117,000 a few years earlier and because he said that Ilkins book was sililar in condition i thought that a figure of $150,000 was more than fair. If anything the figure was UNDER the value of the books. Of course when you throw Danny's OWN WORDS back at him he doesnt like it. Suddenly this does not apply to him and he came up with excuses as to why it doesnt. Whatever steps i took Danny was NEVER going to pay the full unrestored value of the books like he thinks others should do. There is plenty more i have to say on this matter but i have to dash. I just wanted to dispell this 'Hush money' theory that Danny keeps gleefully coming up with. If i had asked for a million dollars yes THAT would have been extortion but i didnt i asked for the value of the books as per his email. If anybody has any questions please feel free to ask.

First off, you had a deal with CK, not Danny.

OK. I found it in my files too, now that I had the whole body of text to search for. On my discs, the files are named "Ilk1, Ilk2, Turhan1", etc. Not named for specific content. I have over 2 dozen discs with emails and various data related to this transaction gone South.

YES. His email is completely accurate as far as my quotes in that email are. At that time, that is what I believed. Unfortunately, in theory, triple your money back guarantees should be agreed upon AS A CONDITION OF THE SALE, BEFORE the sale is made. To be considered a valid term of sale, BEFORE the transaction is made, the seller should state, "YES. IF the raw book is defective, I will replace it with a CGCed AF#15 graded 9.4 blue, OR it's currect marketplace value". That didn't happen here. No guarantees of the sort were made, and Ilkin didn't ASK for CGC replacement, or CGC replacement values as his remedy when he returned them. He said, "I just want my money back, please don't be put out". Do you have THAT email, Buggsy?

Once again, Ilkin DIDN'T purchase a CGC 9.4 Universal label AF#15. He purchased a RAW NM AF#15.

AT the time of sale, a CGC AF#15 9.4 had sold for $85,000.
AT the time of sale, RAW high grade comics were attaining levels of approx 1/3 to 1/2 of their similarly graded Ebay CGCed counterparts in the marketplace.
Some sellers with excellent feedback were getting as high as 75% to 90% for raw books, relative to their similarly graded CGC counterparts.

Ilkin paid $45,000 for a RAW book. He received NO guarantees of CGC grading it 9.4. He had no guarantee of CK replacing it with a CGC graded 9.4 if restoration was found. NO merchant would make that offer on a raw, untested book.

There are two markets in this hobby. Raw and slabbed. There wouldn't be a raw market if every seller had to guarantee that a raw 9.4 would grade CGC 9.4, "or he would give the buyer for the price of a CGC 9.4". That's ridiculous

The book was guaranteed for the price of the purchase. Not for the price of a CGC 9.4. That was made very clear when Turhan kept pushing for a "triple your money back" guarantee.

At the time I made those statements to Turhan, they were my beliefs. As the gap between the values of raw and CGCed books widened, the practicality of that theory became illogical.

If you bought an AC Cobra 428 years ago for $7000 and had so many problems that you had to return it for your money back and then in 2007 learn that original AC Cobra 428s are commanding $500,000 in the classic auto marketplace, what do you do? Hope the seller is still doing business, walk into his showroom and demand $500,000 or a $500,000 car?

That's the flaw in my initial thoughts that I conveyed to Turhan. People do change their theoretical opinions based on practice.

Buyers return things to sellers all the time. All sellers should honor their guarantees. CK does and this case was no exception.

To this day, the highest price ever paid for a raw AF#15 is $45,000 to the best of my knowledge. Ebay sales do not indicate if the buyer followed through with a purchase. A sale is only a sale IF the book is transacted. An Ebay auction result tells less than half the story. It doesn't tell you if a $117,000 transaction was finalized.

I understand where he got the $150,000 figure. That part was not blackmail. That was a statement of what he believed he was owed AFTER the refund was made on the purchase price. I get it. The difference between $45,000 and what he believed a CGC 9.4 AF#15 would cost.

The blackmail was the WAY in which he went about "asking" for an extra $150,000. "You have until 5PM today to give me $150,000 OR I'm going to the authorities, I'm going to sue you, AND I'll see to it that I'm going to ruin you in the hobby and see you in jail".

Meanwhile, to jail for WHAT? For honoring a guarantee and refunding his brother's money?

A JUDGE (not in this case, just an aquaintance) considered his wording and tactics BLACKMAIL. I wasn't sure, the judge was. This is after I explained ALL the conditions of the sale and refund.

"Give me money or I'll send your nude pictures to the media". Wasn't there just a new story on Miss NJ to this effect? That's blackmail!

That isn't, "eat your breakfast or you're not going out to play".

That's a $150,000 demand to keep it quiet or "I'll see you ruined". That's demand to buy silence. Reagrdless of where the $150,000 figure came from, the manner in which it was demanded was blackmail.

$45,000 Paid, $45,000 Refunded. All conditions of the pre-sale agreed upon guarantee satisfied.

[The Charlton Guy]

CG, it wasn't me that brought up "family" business. All of my posts from this day forth will contain subject matter and text only all relevant to comics. This way nobody has any excuses to ban me for anything else other than my trying to answer questions and defend myself. .

Excellent. Hoss and all of us have pretty thin skins when it comes to personal attacks, regardless of where they are coming from, or who they are directed to.

And when I said "we are walking a fine line here", I meant just that (the "we" part), because I am as cullpible as anyone when it comes to personally attacking you verbally. As a Moderator in this Forum, that is really not acceptable, and some days back I apologized for any outright slurs against you. I repeat that apology now. And you may have noticed, I have not grilled you on exactly who you are, where you live, etc., and I won't do so in the future, unless you want to tell me.

And that is also why I made it clear (at least I hope I made it clear) that personal attacks against you, or other Members posting your personal information is unacceptable as well.

I faced the fact that you refuse to admit to any other identity at this point than your admission of being the "ebay seller Comic-Keys".

I think we should all leave it at that for now, as we expect the same rights of privacy and anonymity for all Corral Members.

That said, many of us are on a (true) first and last name basis here, trade with each other, communicate with each other outside the Forum, etc. so if you should wish to volunteer your true name, identity or location to another Member, either publicly or privately, that is of course your right.

Until then, I will refrain, and I hope other Members will refrain from trying to put you on the spot in this regard.


There is a history on most message boards of banning members for doing just that. It seems that when doormats grow lips and a voice box, there's many who have a problem with that.

You can defend yourself as long as you like. But again, the family and custody stuff must stop. And you seem to be agreeable to that.

The history of this message board is short, but we made a commitment early on to allow everyone a voice, even if we don't like what that voice is saying.

That said, we have banned a few Members who came on the boards strictly for personal attacks (mainly against Stu...go figger), and we will not be reluctant to do it again, should this type of scenario pop up again.

And I would ask that any issues you have with other Members or Corral "policy" be directed to me and not to Hoss. He is pretty fed up with this whole business and I don't blame him. And besides, it was me who "invited" you here. I will try my best to be fair and balanced with you as a Moderator and in our discussions, but just keep in mind, my primary responsibility here is to the greater good of the Corral, so should things get out of hand again, whether it's from your input or others, I will pull the plug on this discussion at the drop of a hat.

One more aspect of this "Personal Information" that has to go is your Avatar. I'm sorry, but I have to insist on having you change or remove your current avatar, for reasons that I won't go into, either here or by PM.

I hope that is clear, and that we can continue with what I hope will turn out to be a very interesting thread.

[The Charlton Guy]

Thanks.

[AceVentura]

Excellent. Hoss and all of us have pretty thin skins when it comes to personal attacks, regardless of where they are coming from, or who they are directed to.

And when I said "we are walking a fine line here", I meant just that (the "we" part), because I am as cullpible as anyone when it comes to personally attacking you verbally. As a Moderator in this Forum, that is really not acceptable, and some days back I apologized for any outright slurs against you. I repeat that apology now. And you may have noticed, I have not grilled you on exactly who you are, where you live, etc., and I won't do so in the future, unless you want to tell me.

You must realize that with my posting here, attacks on me are going to continue, even if totally unprovoked. That said, I'm not here to fight with anyone and won't engage in disruptive forum behavoir contrary to the common good and interest of the forum as a whole. There's been far too much of that already. I'm here to contribute, not detract.

Also, regardless of who I say I am, most already have their mind made up that I'm Danny and continue to address me that way. I'm done correcting them. It's a waste of time from my experience. Everyone can call me whatever they'd like, I'll call me CK to avoid confusion and simplify things.


And that is also why I made it clear (at least I hope I made it clear) that personal attacks against you, or other Members posting your personal information is unacceptable as well.

And I'll make no attacks against anyone, even if provoked. I'll let the moderator deal with it as he sees fit and forum decorum dictates.



I faced the fact that you refuse to admit to any other identity at this point than your admission of being the "ebay seller Comic-Keys".

I think we should all leave it at that for now, as we expect the same rights of privacy and anonymity for all Corral Members.

It's easier. We're talking about all of CKs transactions so that simplifies things.


Until then, I will refrain, and I hope other Members will refrain from trying to put you on the spot in this regard.

They won't refrain but that's OK. I've lived with it for 5 years and I can live with it for another 5 just as easily.


You can defend yourself as long as you like. But again, the family and custody stuff must stop. And you seem to be agreeable to that.

Very agreeable.


That said, we have banned a few Members who came on the boards strictly for personal attacks (mainly against Stu...go figger), and we will not be reluctant to do it again, should this type of scenario pop up again.

STU?????? Who would attack Stu?


And I would ask that any issues you have with other Members or Corral "policy" be directed to me and not to Hoss. He is pretty fed up with this whole business and I don't blame him. And besides, it was me who "invited" you here. I will try my best to be fair and balanced with you as a Moderator and in our discussions, but just keep in mind, my primary responsibility here is to the greater good of the Corral, so should things get out of hand again, whether it's from your input or others, I will pull the plug on this discussion at the drop of a hat.

Like Don Corleone said, "I will not be the one to break the peace". They won't get out of hand from this end. I was cruising. Discussing an AF15 and suddenly all hell broke loose. I was just as annoyed.


One more aspect of this "Personal Information" that has to go is your Avatar. I'm sorry, but I have to insist on having you change or remove your current avatar, for reasons that I won't go into, either here or by PM.

Done. I understand.


I hope that is clear, and that we can continue with what I hope will turn out to be a very interesting thread.

I plan on contributing to the betterment and expanding interest in the board to the best of my abilities. I plan on speaking on many relevant subjects of high interest to collectors and initiating a "Ace's top ebay picks" thread that will highlight weekly auctions that I think are a lock to pursue and why. Alot of forum members on the St. louis board loved my "Picks of the week" thread. Ask James.

[The Charlton Guy]

That all sounds great.

Thanks to everybody for working through this and again, I hope that this thread will continue on on a much better track now that we have dealt with the initial flare-ups.

I agree, the road may continue to be bumpy from here on, and hey, I'm not asking that this thread turn into "Mr. Rodger's Neighborhood", I just wanted to make clear (to everybody) the general policies here at the Corral.

I'll probably have some questions of my own for you coming up, and I hope that those who are interested in joining in will also get into the thick of it here.

Let's just keep it somewhat civilized folks. Remember, we do have kids who hang out in this little forum of ours.

Thanks again to all and best regards,

C.G.

[fulltimer56]

Hi CG,

What happen to your listing for your Batman comic? I got notice that my bid had been cancelled?

Linda

[The Charlton Guy]

Hi Linda! I pulled the auction, in the same spirit of fairness that I am attempting to show here on this thread. What a Guy, huh? (Or what a dunce...)

Don't worry though, there will be more to come...soon.

[stupidman]

That said, we have banned a few Members who came on the boards strictly for personal attacks (mainly against Stu...go figger), and we will not be reluctant to do it again, should this type of scenario pop up again.

STU?????? Who would attack Stu?


LOL all around!
I must say that C-K never did come after me when I interjected a few choice opinions at him on the CGC Board. I was "honored" when I saw that he had stolen the CGC Pee gif I made and was using it on a chatboard.

http://members.aol.com/catmanstu/cgcpee.gif

[mordo]

He obviously doesn't want to post it. Why don't you post it and end the supsense?#popcorn#


Ciorac, I thought your name sounded familiar. Here is a Scoop! article about you that I'm sure you probably have framed now! You are indeed one of the good guys of the hobby.

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/scoop_article.asp?ai=15799&si=124

[AceVentura]

Ciorac, I thought your name sounded familiar. Here is a Scoop! article about you that I'm sure you probably have framed now! You are indeed one of the good guys of the hobby.

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/scoop_article.asp?ai=15799&si=124

Very nice article.

An Everett Page from DAREDEVIL #1!!! #allhailme#

He ordered a JIM #112 in the 1970s that he never received?? :mad:

He should let Buggsy write the seller a letter in his behest, demanding CGC 9.4 current marketplace value reimbursement! :D

The Famous Funnies run is Killer. Great books, great artists, and very undervalued by today's relative standards.


Marvel Comics #1 has eluded me my entire time in the hobby. I believe the only key Golden Age comics I have never owned would be Marvel #1 and Whiz #2 (#1). I've owned issues that are scarcer than them: Detective Comics #1, New Fun #1, More Fun #14, Action Comics #1, Detective Comics #27, etcetera, but never those two books. I am eyeing up a Whiz though, so that drought may end!

The Marvel #1 October variant is more scarce than all mentioned except Det#1 and New Fun#1.

Of that group, New Fun #1 is the toughest. Det #1 and the Oct. variant of Marvel Comics #1 are just about tied for scarcity.

[bugsy]

As i already explained to you Mr comic-keys the amount of $150,000 was mainly based(it also included the raw NM prices for ASM 1,19,34) on the sale of your raw copy of Amazing Fantasy #15 which you said was similar to Ilkins, because you have missed it i will try and make it easier and say it was item number 2245499808 and ended on May 30th 2004 and the winning bid was $117,600 AND was described as a WHITE-PAGED GUARANTEED UNRESTORED GEM. Well what do you know Ilkins copy was supposed to be Guaranteed Unrestored as well. By the way you never did answer my question. Which comics that were returned to you by Ilkin came back with blue labels.

[ciorac]

Ciorac, I thought your name sounded familiar. Here is a Scoop! article about you that I'm sure you probably have framed now! You are indeed one of the good guys of the hobby.

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/scoop_article.asp?ai=15799&si=124

Thanks Mordo! I enjoyed that interview with Tom Gordon.

[ciorac]

Very nice article.

An Everett Page from DAREDEVIL #1!!! #allhailme#

He ordered a JIM #112 in the 1970s that he never received?? :mad:

He should let Buggsy write the seller a letter in his behest, demanding CGC 9.4 current marketplace value reimbursement! :D

The Famous Funnies run is Killer. Great books, great artists, and very undervalued by today's relative standards.



The Marvel #1 October variant is more scarce than all mentioned except Det#1 and New Fun#1.

Of that group, New Fun #1 is the toughest. Det #1 and the Oct. variant of Marvel Comics #1 are just about tied for scarcity.

If I run into the JIM 112 guy one day, perhaps I will make a similar demand! #oldie#

You are correct about the Oct Marvel 1, it is scarce as hens teeth. I sure hope to conquer it one day.:)

[AceVentura]

As i already explained to you Mr comic-keys the amount of $150,000 was mainly based(it also included the raw NM prices for ASM 1,19,34) on the sale of your raw copy of Amazing Fantasy #15 which you said was similar to Ilkins, because you have missed it i will try and make it easier and say it was item number 2245499808 and ended on May 30th 2004 and the winning bid was $117,600 AND was described as a WHITE-PAGED GUARANTEED UNRESTORED GEM. Well what do you know Ilkins copy was supposed to be Guaranteed Unrestored as well. By the way you never did answer my question. Which comics that were returned to you by Ilkin came back with blue labels.

Of course I answered the question. I told Ilkin that the Amazing Spiderman #1, 19 and 34 were all returned blue labeled. I didn't submit them. I don't belong to the CGC Collector's Society.

Yes, that AF #15 was similar to Ilkin's. As it turned out, although the auction finished at $117,600, that's not always an indication that the book actually SOLD.

How many times have we seen Heritage auction results for books that "sold" at a certain price and were back in the next auction 2 months later, back up on the block?

There was also a $107,000 Ebay sale on JP's Spiderman #1 CGC 9.6 (the one with the bottom spine corner that had exploded from too vigorous a pressing). GPAnalysis even reported the "sale", which the buyer verified he had NOT made.

An auction result is merely that. A result, not a transaction. There's no absolute indication made as to if that bid was honored and money changed hands. In the case of the AF#15, it did not.

That's why Ebay allows a seller to file a non-paying bidder alert. To recoup the final value fee if the buyer doesn't pay. I'm sure you've heard of that Ebay function.

BTW, Ilkin's copy was NEVER absolutely proven to be restored. It was NOT CGCed and from my understanding, your restoration expert based his decision on SCANS.

When Ilkin told me that someone had examined SCANS of the books and determined them ALL to be restored, I asked Ilkin if he would like to CGC them to be sure because knowing the origins of the books, I disagree. He declined. Just like he declined replacement.

He said, "I've spoken to the wife and she agrees with me on this. I just would like to get my money back. I hope you're not put out by this".

I have these quotes word for word in an email if you would like me to post it for you.

[AceVentura]

Well what do you know Ilkins copy was supposed to be Guaranteed Unrestored as well.

Turhan, I'm genuinely sorry about the turn of events concerning this reversed transaction. The books WERE guaranteed unrestored. Ilkin chose to return the books based on his expert examining the scans of the books. Most, experts alike, have come to realize that scans are NOT an effective and foolproof way to positively determine restoration. I disagreed that they were restored, Ilkin was convinced, requested a return, and got his refund. The guarantee was honored precisely upon Ilkin's request.

As long as there are raw books left to transact in this hobby and two people left to view them, there will ALWAYS be a disagreement as to what IS ad what ISN'T restored. Which of these two people is the qualified expert will also be argued.

You can buy raw books from a seller with or without a lifetime restoration guarantee. CK is one of the very painfully sellers who offer and honor that guarantee.

[The Charlton Guy]

CK is one of the very painfully sellers who offer and honor that guarantee.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/freud.jpg

[AceVentura]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/freud.jpg


And isn't it ironic that Freud, the phounding phather of phallic psychology was rarely seen without a stogie in his hand or between his lips! Eventually, 20 stogies per day did him in. I think this is one of the last photos taken of him while he still had his jaw.

[The Charlton Guy]

Interesting description in this auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170134403417&ru=http://search.ebay.com:80/170134403417_W0QQ_trksidZm37QQfromZR40QQfviZ1

Whaddaya think Ace, are you gonna just report him or sue?

[mordo]

Can you sue yourself?

http://www.comicscorral.com/forums/images/smilies/stickpoke.gif

[The Charlton Guy]

My last attempt was unsuccessful...and my hourly billable rates were KILLIN' me.

But hey, anything's possible. Especially in Long Island.

[AceVentura]

Interesting description in this auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170134403417&ru=http://search.ebay.com:80/170134403417_W0QQ_trksidZm37QQfromZR40QQfviZ1

Whaddaya think Ace, are you gonna just report him or sue?

What he's done is to re-run an old CK auction, word for word. He also took the original scan (which is no longer online) and compressed it. He's not saying anything derrogatory, just trying to rob somebody IF it's not the guy who bought the book. If it is, he has every right to use the same scan and text if he wishes. As of now, he's yet to answer any of my inquiries.

What concerns me is the lack of feedback for over a year. Hackers look for dormant accounts to hijack and attempt making a fast score.

[AceVentura]

Can you sue yourself?

#poke#

Sure! If you win your suit, you can move the monetary contents of your left pocket all into your right pocket.

Wouldn't that make a great case if you could represent yourself as both the defendant and plaintiff in your suit against yourself? You can make your own motions and then object to them.

If you win, you could also sue for legal expenses! And you can keep suing until you run out of pockets. :D

[The Charlton Guy]

So Let me get this straight. On this auction, which eneded May 1, this book was described as follows:

This listing is for an original Fantastic Four #1 in Fine to Very Fine condition, the comic that kicked off the Marvel Superhero Universe. It was published in 1961. The pages are off-white and the cover is very clean and very glossy. The comic is complete and has no loose pages, tape, repairs, or restoration.

My scanner adds tone to the white cover comics making them appear to be dingy. In person, the cover is a beautiful shade of glossy, pure white and very fresh colors. There is no darkening at the edges. There are no signs of weathering or mositure damage. The entire surface of the comic is shiny and glossy.

The spine is very flat and tight. There is some light creasing in the bottom right corner and some minor marvel chipping on the right edge to the cover and some of the inside pages.

Here's the auction link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170104451319

Here's the scan from that auction:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/FF1b-May-15.jpg

Then the same book "crops up" again this week descibed as follows:


This listing is for an Original, Vintage Fantastic Four #1 in apparent VFN condition.The pages are a beautiful off-white to white.

The spine is unrestored and nearly perfect. There are some Marvel pre-chips on the right edge that were sealed without using additional paper. Some type of professional archival glue was used to seal and protect them from detaching.

There is also some minimal color touch on 5 tiny areas on the right edge, some of which slightly bled through where the prechips were sealed.


Here's a link to the auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/FANTASTIC-FOUR-1-APP-VFN-RESTORED_W0QQitemZ170135625257QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3 2731QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Here's the scan from the current auction:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/FantasticFour1_tearrepair.jpg


So tell me. Will the hair gel on the spine be disclosed the next time around?

Can I get a couple of more inches taken off the back?

[oxbladder]

Are you sure its "hair gel" on the spine?

[AceVentura]

CG, You don't have it straight. You don't see a HUGE difference between these two books?:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170104451319

http://cgi.ebay.com/FANTASTIC-FOUR-1-APP-VFN-RESTORED_W0QQitemZ170135625257QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3 2731QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Obviously two different books. Nothing is even similar. Ox, you didn't notice that?? Or did you just look at the WRONG link that CGC posted which was another image from the OLD auction without dialing up the new auction and seeing what image is there?

People just accept anything negative without looking for themselves.

CG, When you said, "the same book crops up again...", you linked the OLD auction again, not the new auction with a different image from the new auction. That's not the image or the book that's in the new auction, nor was it.

One more time, with the CORRECT lonks and scans associated with the two auctions for two different books:

Old auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170104451319

(black paper in background, no spine line visible, ample room to the right of the comic code, only "nd" of the "ind" showing on the left side, top portion of right edge pages stick way out, etc.)

New auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/FANTASTIC-FOUR-1-APP-VFN-RESTORED_W0QQitemZ170135625257QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3 2731QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

(triangle paper in background, spine line completely visible, little room to right of code, IND very visible on left side, no pages stick way out on the right edge at the top, etc.)

The image COULDN'T have been changed because the old image FTP properties are there for the old image and it still shows up under that address (it has not been deleted).

The new auction image properties show that it has not been swapped from the address of the new one. In order to change the image once a bid was placed, the photobucket address of the old image would have to have been swapped IDENTICALLY for the new one, or vice versa. If that were the case, one of the images would not show up. They couldn't both show up as two different images with the same properties/web address.

CG, you're now 0 for 4 on the accusatory batting scale.

0 for 1) The FF 1 isn't the same one, nor is it even close.

0 for 2) The Spiderman #33 in that auction isn't trimmed, which will be proved soon because the feedback left by the buyer stated that he's going to CGC it.

0 for 3) The FF #23 will also one day be proved to have been untrimmed.

0 for 4) Buggsy's brother DID get a FULL refund. He just didn't get Buggsy's demands for $150,000 in "punitive damages".

I don't mean to be hard on you, CG. I like and respect you, and I'm hopeful that we're all going to do great things here on this forum. And everytime you either lash out at me or at a seller whose accusations get put on my tab (accusations that should really be held in abeyance until the accusor has CORRECT concrete evidence) it's distracting from not only the truth but what POSITIVE things can be done here.

I just wish you would double, then triple check your work before sounding bugles. The two links you posted were to the same old auction. You never posted the correct link to the NEW auction with a different image.

Can we possibly focus our energies momentarily on getting this grading contest started and how to draw a large prize pool from many participants that will wind up benefitting someone?

[The Charlton Guy]

My bad.

I downloaded the same image twice.

Sorry about that.

It was a long night.

[The Charlton Guy]

Are you sure its "hair gel" on the spine?

Ooooohhhhhh....yeuchhh!!!

[The Charlton Guy]

CG, you're now 0 for 4 on the accusatory batting scale.

0 for 1) The FF 1 isn't the same one, nor is it even close.

See my second to last post. My bad.

0 for 2) The Spiderman #33 in that auction isn't trimmed, which will be proved soon because the feedback left by the buyer stated that he's going to CGC it.

That will be worth looking forward to.

0 for 3) The FF #23 will also one day be proved to have been untrimmed.

Not likely, based on the emails I had back and forth with the buyer.

0 for 4) Buggsy's brother DID get a FULL refund. He just didn't get Buggsy's demands for $150,000 in "punitive damages".

I am not and was not a part of this transaction and do not have, nor have I ever had an opinion about it.


.

[AceVentura]

See my second to last post. My bad.

Not a problem! :)


That will be worth looking forward to.

If I'm not mistaken, the source, an ebay auction, for that book was shown. One Million Comics.


Not likely, based on the emails I had back and forth with the buyer.

The last I had heard, the buyer, a 30 year hobby veteran, was so sure that it wasn't trimmed, he had no interest in sending it to CGC. Has anything changed since then? Has he submitted it, hopefully?


I am not and was not a part of this transaction and do not have, nor have I ever had an opinion about it.

You stated, "I've got a board member here who says that he's still owed THOUSANDS on a refund that wasn't made", so technically, it IS an accusatory allegation that you could have withheld until you had a chance to get ALL of the details from him.

But OK, we'll roll the accusatory batting record back to 0 for 1. Just the FF auction links which was a simple mistake. The 33 and 23 haven't PROVEN to be trimmed or untrimmed at this point so we'll have to leave them off the record until irrefutible evidence of CGC submission is returned. For now, they're both only fouled off.

[The Charlton Guy]

You stated, "I've got a board member here who says that he's still owed THOUSANDS on a refund that wasn't made", so technically, it IS an accusatory allegation that you could have withheld until you had a chance to get ALL of the details from him.


I did (state that) early in your appearance here. Turhan had contacted me through other channels and I was unaware of the details of this transaction gone wrong (apparently, for both parties). But even then (I repeat), I did not, and do not have an opinion about it.

But you and Turhan have both been very forthcoming and both of you, while not agreeable on much of anything, and obviosly not destined to be best buddies, seem to have gotten a lot off your chests as far as making your cases clear.

And that's a pretty good start.

[The Charlton Guy]

:p Pretty funny!

http://cgi.ebay.com/DETECTIVE-258-FN_W0QQitemZ170135616775QQihZ007QQcategoryZ32727QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[The Charlton Guy]

"So what's so funny?"

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/gordon-1.jpg

My new pending buyout of the Comics Corral and my recent merger with Sunbeam Industries
will ensure a future of fiscal superiority like never seen on any comic book discussion board!



http://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/wallstreet5.JPG
CG, I appreciate the opportunity you're giving me,
as the single largest shareholder in Comic-Keys Limited and the Comics Corral Chip Reserve,
to speak to the Members of the Comics Corral.
I have long been kept silent by the Curmugeonus Geekus Commandus of CGC,
the Stinkers That Lie of STL and the Link Sausage Suckers of ComicLink.

It is nice to have a chance to speak my mind here.

Well, ladies and gentlemen, we're not here to indulge in high grade fantasy, but in political and economic reality.
Ebay, Ebay has become a second-rate power. Its trade deficit and my comic book return deficit are at nightmare proportions.
Now, in the early days of Ebay, when I was a top comic-trading power, there was no accountability for the Ebay seller.

Life was good.

The Comic-Keys, the Ma4pres's, Heritage, Wizard, the men that built this great comic book empire, made sure of it because it was their money at stake.

Today, Ebay is a dead mackeral, with no more Private Feedback, higher scrutinization of shill bidders, no blocking of zero feedback buyers and the highest fees this side of Eliot Spitzer's hairdresser!

And on top of all of this, even worse than this -- forget about Ebay for a minute --

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/michaeldouglaswallstreet2.JPG

Even worse, the average Comics Corral Member has no stake in the Comics Corral company!

All together, these Corral Members sitting out there own
less than 3 percent of the Common Corral Chips!

And where does Mr. Charlton Guy put his Corral-Chip salary?
Not in Corral stock, he owns less than 1 percent.

You own the Corral. That's right -- you, the Corral Member.

And you are all being royally screwed over by these, these Moderators,
with their taco lunches, their hunting and fishing trips, their corporate jets and golden showers.










The Charlton Guy:
"This is an outrage!
You're out of line, Comic-Keys!!!
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/mad.jpg







http://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/michaeldouglaswallstreet2.JPG
Mr. Guy...Mr. Guy...
Comic-Keys Limited...Mr. Guy, Comic-Keys Limitied has 33 different Eaby selling names, each earning over 200 thousand dollars a year.
Now, you have spent the last two months analyzing what I do, and you still can't figure it out.
One thing you do know is that my comic paper company made 110 million dollars last year.
And I'll bet that half of that was spent in all the paperwork going back and forth between all these Ebay returns.
And you? You can't even get a lousy copy of Iron Man #130 to Canada without having it devoured by wolves!


http://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/wallstreet20.JPG
The point is, ladies and gentleman,



fellow Corral Members,


that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.



Greed is right.



Greed works.



Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the Silver Age comic market.



Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, for Charlton Comics -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.



And greed -- you mark my words -- will not only save Comic-Keys Limited, but that other malfunctioning corporation called Ebay.





Thank you very much.

[marvelguy]

:shock:

Here, I thought I had a lesson in my 401K numbers today after what happened today on Wall Street.

So is the Golden and Silver Age comics downward spiral due to greed.

[AceVentura]

"Comic-Keys Limited...Mr. Guy, Comic-Keys Limitied has 33 different Eaby selling names, each earning over 200 thousand dollars a year."

From your mouth to God's ears! :-)

[The Charlton Guy]

"THE SHARPEST SILVER AGE COMIC I'VE SEEN"

http://cgi.ebay.com/AMAZING-SPIDER-MAN-33-NM-MT-to-MINT-FLAWLESS_W0QQitemZ170145737440QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3 2739QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Very funny...:roll:

[marvelguy]

Just don't let the edges cut your fingers, it'll bleed all over it.

[AceVentura]

Just don't let the edges cut your fingers, it'll bleed all over it.

Some say you can tell what's trimmed from scans.

Others say you can't tell from scans alone.

Who's correct? There IS a clear cut answer, based on a few examples that I know of:

What I at one time proved beyond guesswork, beyond a shadow of doubt, by clearly identifying Ewert books in the slab, before the truth was known, is that less than 1/10th of a tenth of 1 percent have the ability to distinguish what's trimmed from scans alone with a regular high degree of accuracy, and only IF the trim exhibits a certain identifiable trait common to that seller's other trimmed books (that is, IF trimmed by the same person, which all of Ewert's books were).

Now, you must consider that I had identified a small number of Ewert books as trimmed without finger pointing at MANY of his books and hoping that one or two was. I was very specific about which ones were trimmed, THEN before and after shots proved my Ewert picks were trimmed. I didn't use before and after scans. I didn't have those pictures to alert me to the trimming on his CGCed books. All I had to go on was their edges relationships to the inner wells of the slabs themselves. Only later did others find the before scans that proved me 100&#37; right. I didn't see the before scans until after they were found and posted. I did this by eye alone.

VERY IMPORTANT: My ability in detecting the Ewert trimmers was BECAUSE they were slabbed and I had the inner well as a REFERENCE POINT for this one particular type of "angle-trim" prevalent and characteristic on the Ewert trimmed books. It's something that I picked up. A very small detail that was common to the top edge on most of his books. Something that is not evident to a large degree on the books of other sellers. An idiosynchrosy that I was sensitive to and able to consistantly identify.

Now this is MOST important: I would not have been able to readily identify them if they were NOT slabbed and I didn't have the inner well as a reference point. The reference of the inner well was integral in consistantly idnetifying this one quirk that was abnormal to the way these books were commonly manufactured. Now that's not to say that NO marvels EVER came off the assembly line with a top end cut like this, but it appeared that MOST Ewert books had this not often seen, rare trait. VERY much against the odds for one seller to have so many books of the same uncharacteristic top edge cut. It's the rail of the slab's inner well that gave it away! Not the edge itself. After studying Ewert's auction books, it was easy to identify all the other books on Ebay and elsewhere that went THROUGH Ewert and whomever was trimming them.

OBVIOUS trimmed books, you can tell. Like CG's Atom, the Detective 306. No kidding right? Trimmed! Marvels that are CHOP cut on the right edge instead of cut like a fan or arc. But Ewert's were a different case. They fooled CGC, but Ewert just had too many of them with that eerie top end cut, all the same, by the same cutter using the same method. Book after book, the odds just added up.

Now, A book like that Spiderman #33? A scan like that? No way can anyone be sure they can identify trim on a scan of a book like that. Impossible. Just guessing.

The scans give no indication at all that the book might be trimmed, other than it's an extremely sharp book. Not only is it HUGE, but the edges look perfectly untrimmed. Sharp books like this do exist in AND out of CGC slabs. I remember a CGC 9.9 Spiderman #19. From the looks of the scan, this one is just as nice. Maybe nicer.

Further, why would a seller offer books with a guarantee and also guarantee all the buyer's expenses, postage, postage to CGC, the CGC fee, postage back from CGC, and then postage back to the seller plus the actual refund, if he wasn't absolutely sure the book was a blue label shoe-in? Think about it. If he's wrong, that's ALOT of dough to be out. You stay in biz by MAKING money, not by giving it away, and I've never seen an offer like this from any seller.

A book like this isn't going into somebody's hope chest until after it's been to CGC. We're talking:

4 postages with insurance, on a thousand dollar+ book has to be $100 at least, right?
If they express grade, that's another $100+, right?, otherwise how much, about $50 to a $75 grading fee for this book?
Plus the refund? That's $1200+ back on a tentative $1000 sale if the seller is wrong. That's bad odds unless the seller is absolutely sure.
You don't think the seller is going to make sure that his book is unrestored if he's going to sell it with that kind of offer?

I was just explaining to someone else, 19 out of 20 buyers of books like these ($100 and up NM- or better books) are buying to send to CGC for a favorable outcome so they can flip on Ebay, or list it on C-link to make a few $$$.

The $100 and under, Good to Fine buyers are the collectors that squirrel everything away without CGCing them. THAT'S the faction who are probably sitting on God knows how many trimmed or color touched books that will never be CGCed. These high grades ALL make it in eventually. Most sooner, a few later. That's why they're won.

Whomever wins a silver age NM/MT, you KNOW the first stop is CGC. That's a given. A no-brainer. I'm also sure that a seller doesn't want to be out $200+ for being wrong about it being a virgin and has taken great care to prevent that possibility.

[The Charlton Guy]

Now, A book like that Spiderman #33? A scan like that? No way can anyone be sure they can identify trim on a scan of a book like that. Impossible. Just guessing.

I wouldn't say it's impossible. Though I do agree, it is possible that this particular book is not trimmed. I did not mean to imply that it was. I was just pointing out that the seller's choice of words for the sub-title was more than a little ironic. Perhaps it was intentional, who knows. Maybe just a little Freudian slip.


The scans give no indication at all that the book might be trimmed, other than it's an extremely sharp book. Not only is it HUGE, but the edges look perfectly untrimmed. Sharp books like this do exist in AND out of CGC slabs. I remember a CGC 9.9 Spiderman #19. From the looks of the scan, this one is just as nice. Maybe nicer.

I know that books like this do exist. I have owned a few and seen many. As for the un-restored, un-trimmed status of the book? Hopefully, time will tell.

[AceVentura]

Mark Zaid Said: "But I have read enough to know that me thinks you guys should be working together on this issue than at odds debating it. http://boards.collectors-society.com/images/graemlins/default/gossip.gif http://boards.collectors-society.com/images/graemlins/default/thumbsup2.gif"

So let me see if I have this straight: The Bay Commandos of the CGC Forum want to band together to find some viable solution to STOP Robojo33 from selling high grade books on Ebay that are all grading Blue and scoring well? And THIS is the issue that they need to rectify by putting their heads together to figure out how to put a stop to it?

And these are all 9.4 crackouts that are being auctioned raw at a grade to half a grade lower than what CGC graded them?

To salt a mine? Even though that's putting more salt IN to a mine than it can poissibly hold?

Are they planning to go after any OTHER sellers of high grade raw books that all grade blue and score well at CGC?

Is this is the new trend in policing the hobby? Based on some form of reverse logic? They figure maybe if they go after someone selling unrestored high grade books that the buyers are ecstatic over and score blue labels at CGC they'll put enough fear into the hearts of the guys who AREN'T disclosing resto and grading poorly that they'll stop when they see what they did to forthright sellers? Is that the idea?

I'm just curious if I have the facts straight, because it's fairly bizzare.

[The Charlton Guy]

All the weekend posts have been deleted from the thread in question.

Convenient.

Looks like someone struck a nerve somewhere.

[AceVentura]

All the weekend posts have been deleted from the thread in question.

Convenient.

Looks like someone struck a nerve somewhere.

I just looked. About 4 pages or so missing! What happened? Somebody said "po-tay-to" and someone else said "po-tah-to"? :D

[marvelguy]

All the weekend posts have been deleted from the thread in question.

Convenient.

Looks like someone struck a nerve somewhere.

What? Did I miss something?:confused:

[The Charlton Guy]

I believe that the post that struck a nerve was from me (imagine that).

The gist of it was summing up the points that I have repeatedly been trying to make over there for the last few days.

The points were something like this:

1) There is a strongly stated belief that Robojo is cracking CGC slabs and selling them raw in order to "salt the mine" for future scam sales (off Feebay, from want lists sent from buyers). This is pretty ridiculous assertion .

2) There is a strongly stated belief that "every book that Robojo has sold" has been monkeyed with.

3) There was a statement from OldGuy that I will now quote directly (which I used only in part in the deleted post):



Because, so far, all the books purchased on eBay
that are being submitted to CGC and the results
reported to me are coming back unrestored.

(The bold type is OG's, not mine).

This is the one statement on the thread in question that I find the most disturbing. If it is true, it implies one of two things (or both). Either A: OldGuy has been in contact with many of the high bidders and followed the results of the CGC submitals for the Robojo auctions.

No big deal in my mind, I have done the same thing a time of two...

And/Or B: OldGuy is working directly with CGC to give them the heads-up on which books to expect for submittals from the Robojo auctions.

If either is true, it means that there is not a leg to stand on for those who loudly proclaim that "each and every book Robojo has ever sold has been monkeyed with", because "all the books...are coming back unrestored".

If it is "B.", it also means the possibility that CGC is colluding with an outside party regarding particular submittals for a particular seller. And finding nothing. While allowing a forum venue that is vilifying him.

I find that highly problematic.

[AceVentura]

Robojo has already been contacted by numerous bidders and watchers asking if they could send in their want lists. When a seller lists dozens of super high grade, totally unrestored and UNPRESSED gems on a weekly basis, many emails will inevitibly flow in, requesting certain books. Preferring the highest bidder takes it, open world market system of sales, Robo won't be transacting books off of Ebay and has declined to make any off-Ebay sales, present or future.

Not only isn't there any salt, there's no mine to put salt in.

And doesn't that make perfect sense? The feedback speaks for itself and look at the result! CGC like prices for raw books! Not 1/4, not 1/2, not 2/3, but just about CGC GPanalysis prices for RAW books. Amazing.

I don't think that's an accident. I see alot of serious high grade buyers that are notorious CGC submittors on that feedback list and they're coming back for more, time and time again.

I see a seller making sure that nothing with even a chance of grading purple if listed as unrestored, has or will go out and whose dilligence and commitment to that business model has paid off in auction result dividends beyond the wildest of expectations.

Just look at the prices and they're being won by experienced long time Ebayers as repeat buyers. That's no accident I'm sure.

Maybe Robo is the type of raw seller that will now serve as the MODEL for raw sellers. Setting a new standard for others to follow. With all the raw chicanery on Ebay, that CAUSES the wide rift in raw vs. CGCed prices, that sure would be nice for a change, wouldn't it?

[AceVentura]

The most ironic thing of all is the attitude of the CGC forum members that have long been ardent critics of sellers for having purple label returns. They actually seem disappointed that Robojo's books are consistantly grading blue when submitted. As though that's a crime in itself. Pointing fingers at CGC almost in accusatory manner, going as far as presuming that CGC isn't doing their job properly and somehow Robojo's unrestored books are somehow restored and are being slid by them a la Ewert.

How odd a turn of events that is. How hypocritical that is to have complete faith in CGC's resto ability one day, and then lack faith in CGC's resto ability the next, selectively, as dictated by the individual situation and public perception of the book's source, changing one day to the next.

No faith in CGC = eventually no hobby, raw or slabbed, plain and simple, back to the 80s and 90s, which is why OG never did produce that Ewert web-site, to go along with his PGX and Keys websites.

[AceVentura]

Golddust, of the CGC Forum stated: "It would be ironic if they had some idea that these were robojo's books, but they do not. By claiming (on several occasions, I might add) that they are as you stated "giving their blessing" to these books through their trademark blue label you are insinuating that there is some sort of endorsement by CGC of robojo's practices."

Robojo33's "PRACTICES"? Judging by the continued blue label findings of the CGC submissions themselves, books that are unrestored, unpressed, and totally untouched in original as issued form, the feedback, what buyers are all receiving, at some point I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if someone will be held libel for hosting and condoning continually libelous statements being made on that forum about the nature of Robojo's "practices", which the implication of is being presented in a most negative and unflattering, libelous manner.

They're on quite a slippery legal slope here considering that CGC themselves have given these books a clean bill of health as unrestored, which I'm sure they are. They can crack them out and check them again and again, and I'm sure that the results will be the same.

Robojo's record is impeccable. The books and CGC's findings of those books speak for themselves. All positives. No negatives. If offering unrestored, tightly graded books that buyers are thrilled receiving and thrilled after submission, that highly qualifies as the nafarious "practices" that are constantly, libelously being implied and referred to on an hourly basis. Not to mention the best resto guarantee on Ebay. Even one step better than CK's ever was. CK NEVER offered all expenses associated with the purchase and grading refunded with the price of the book. That's a precedent in this hobby. Buyers should demand that guarantee from ALL sellers of raw books. Then, A seller would certainly think twice about listing a book that he wasn't 100&#37; sure would be returned blue.

Maybe Golddust is somehow implying that CGC SHOULD be given advanced warning that a Robojo book is incoming, and which one it is? From my understanding, the CGC graders don't know who the submittor is when grading a book to prevent any possibility of conflict of interest, impropriety, or bias.

Personally, I don't think Robojo cares much whether CGC knows who it's coming from before they grade it, as long as they keep grading them HONESTLY without BIAS. I'm sure they have an idea already due to advanced warning from CGC forum members. And it doesn't matter. They've been doing their job well, and doing their restoration checks effectively, regardless of the wishes of the CGC forumites.

There's been over 200 feedbacks on Robojo books so far. If anyone's holding their breath, hoping, waiting for the other shoe to drop, they're going to be waiting and hoping until they're old and gray. Robojo is for real.

[AceVentura]

The Plot Thickens! Did anybody see this little interesting tidbit:

Originally Posted By: drewincanada

Some of the discussion here has been speculation (?) about him cracking slabs and reselling them as raw, thereby building his reputation as someone who sells unrestored books at accurate grades.


Old Guy: Just for the record, it is not speculation. It has happened.
_________________________

That's TWO interesting revelations from Old Guy. The first, being that he's getting reports from the CGC submissions (and they're all coming back blue lebeled).

At first, when Old Guy made that statement, nowhere did he say, THE SUBMITTORS are repoting the results to him. The only name mentioned to do with any reports coming back to him was, you guessed it, CGC.

Now, this new statement opens up an entirely new can of worms. It implies that CGC CAN TELL that these Robojo books are PRIOR SUBMISSIONS and have been SUBMITTED BEFORE.

First off, that is false, just like the mine-salting theory. There's no money to be made buying CGC high grade books and selling them raw. IF you own a label machine, or have friends in the business with a label machine, THEN it's profitable to buy CGC slabbed books, or win them from your own auctions, and have them reslabbed with a higher grade label, deserve it or not, tweaked or not. A seller couldn't maintain that type of business model and stay solvent long. Not for 7 months, and the Robojo books just keep coming.

What Old Guy is clearly implying is that CGC CAN DETERMINE IF A BOOK HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY SUBMITTED... or THINKS that they can, which is CONTRARY to EVERYTHING that CGC has led us to believe. There's no other way to interpret that statement. On numerous occassions, CGC has issued statements that a data base isn't kept, photo records of all submissions, and they "can't tell if a book has been graded before". MANY times. What IS the truth here?

Old Guy generalized, "it HAS happened". How many times? Once? Twice? All the time? I do remember it mentioned that the Avengers 52 sold to drew in canada was present in the Robojo buying feedback of about 2 years ago and it was also mentioned that book was cracked out and examined by the seller.

That book ALSO graded 9.0 on this last submission. I believe it was won from Ewert in a CGC 9.4 or 9.6 slab!! It graded blue on both occassions. Is THAT the book that CGC recognized and reported to Old guy as a previous submission? If it was, why did it get such a demotion in grade, from 9.4 or 9.6 to 9.0!!!

Very interesting if they CAN tell resubmites after all, and CGC hasn't been forthright by lying about being able to! This would answer alot of questions I've had for years that logic pointed to and invariably generate about 1000 more questions in my mind, the answers of which could shake the entire sanctity of the hobby... so I better not ask! :-)

[stupidman]

Ace, you really think Old Guy is getting reports from CGC, is that what you're saying?

[stupidman]

"There's no money to be made buying CGC high grade books and selling them raw."
Not on those specific book, but there is a way to make money off of them - eventually. As has been mentioned, Robo is only doing that to gain a good rep. A "loss leader" I think it's called? He wants these particualr books to be sent to CGC - when they come back Blue, both parties win.
And then the other shoe will fall...

BTW, 5 people in the CGC Board I trust/respect: Redhook, Davenport, Esquire Comics, Flaming Telepath, and Old Guy. Preople with integrity.

[oxbladder]

Every one knows that robojo/CK/whoever does not deal solely in restored books. Any one with one tenth of a brain knows that to run a successful grift you need to have some shred of a legitimate front.

Ace you give the impression that all of the books you/robojo/whoever are selling are heading to CGC and coming back blue. Fact is they have not all been sent of for grading. Even if they were all being sent and coming back clean doesn't mean those ringers won't be showing up again when "all the attention" wanes.

Wave that shiny image all you want it won't stay untarnished for long.

[AceVentura]

I didn't say anything. Old Guy did. How he FIRST phrased it was something to the effect of, "The reports I'm getting back from CGC"... which is ALOT different in meaning from, "The buyers of Robojo's books who have submitted them to CGC and gotten them all back blue labeled, have reported to me that....".

Don't you agree that the two statements, worded in that way, without the submittors included within the chain of information, have a completely different meaning as to WHOM was reptortin back to Old Guy?

I don't blame CG or me for interpreting his initial statement to imply that CGC was reporting directly to him, a statement, the wording of which he amended later on.

[AceVentura]

"There's no money to be made buying CGC high grade books and selling them raw."
Not on those specific book, but there is a way to make money off of them - eventually. As has been mentioned, Robo is only doing that to gain a good rep. A "loss leader" I think it's called? He wants these particualr books to be sent to CGC - when they come back Blue, both parties win.
And then the other shoe will fall...

BTW, 5 people in the CGC Board I trust/respect: Redhook, Davenport, Esquire Comics, Flaming Telepath, and Old Guy. Preople with integrity.

What does your respect for these 5 people have to do with Robojo's wares? Are you implying that since they feel it's a "mine-salting" operation, they're beyond being wrong, because you respect them?

And what? They feel that because "its a mine salting" operation, this consistant blue label, happy buyer madness must STOP?

8 months, 250 EXPENSIVE books that have averaged in the $250 to $500 range per sale is quite a salting operation. Do they think Robojo has JP and Halperin's type of money? To take a loss leader by setting up all the gears in motion it took to basically insure owning a good chunk of the hobby?

At some point it must dawn on these "pillars of respect" that more salt has been put IN to the mine than could possibly be extracted, in fact more than the mine could probably hold if it were pure salt. But then again, I'm expecting too much in the ways of cognizant observation and applying logic. And getting them to ADMIT they were wrong, after say, a year, two years, three years, 100 years of "mine salting" strictly blue label outcomes while awaiting the sound of the other shoe dropping, would be another fine kettle of fish altogether.

[AceVentura]

Every one knows that robojo/CK/whoever does not deal solely in restored books. Any one with one tenth of a brain knows that to run a successful grift you need to have some shred of a legitimate front.

Ace you give the impression that all of the books you/robojo/whoever are selling are heading to CGC and coming back blue. Fact is they have not all been sent of for grading. Even if they were all being sent and coming back clean doesn't mean those ringers won't be showing up again when "all the attention" wanes.

Wave that shiny image all you want it won't stay untarnished for long.

So you're saying it's a lose/lose situation for Robojo? If all the books come back blue for an indeterminate length of time, Robojo is salting the mine.

And if ONE, just ONE book manages to slip by that comes back purple, not necessarily even an expensive book, it was intentional? It might be one that Robojo honestly missed or it might be a case where CGC erred on a truly unrestored book, but either way, I fully understand what the outcome and resulting outcry would be. "See! The shoes are falling... The shoes are falling", right?

I have no doubts that one day that WILL happen. It HAS to, unless Robojo is God and is never wrong. Like Old Guy, and the other 4 guys he respects are God to Stupidman and every word they utter the living truth. But that can't possibly be. If Robojo is God, those 5 can't be, and vice versa. But then again, all five can't be God, unless they're not thinking monotheistically.

Anyway, a discussion of that would require pure logic so we'll save that for another time.

Maybe one day Robo will foul up and one will get by or a different conclusion will be reached on the CGC grading table, right or wrong. And of course, when I state this, there will be the usual reaction of, "He's doing it again! He's shifting the blame elsewhere to avoid discussing what a rat bas*ard he is, the Goniff!"

Right now, there are 12, the dirty dozen as I call them, TWELVE sellers of raw books who have far more than their fair share of restored books slid in along with the unrestored ones. These are sellers who maintain a steady presence on Ebay. One or two I've seen mentioned on the CGC Forums as moving questionable items, the other 10 I have not.

It's ironic that the Forum bastions of the sanctity of Ebay can focus so intently on a seller with the best of intentions who has only shown the best of intentions and not even begin to perceive the forest behind the Tree of Knowledge.

I sincerely hope that the CGC Forumites continue their Robojo vigil. The constant reports of blue label findings combined with the impeccable feedback must make for increased business. Look at the PRICES Robojo books are realizing. Many of Robojo's books are realizing CGC-similar prices!

It's amazing what a business strategy of diligence, knowledge, and full disclosure (IF there's any to be made) can do. I think most of these bastions have gotten so used to sellers of raw and slabbed books alike resorting to SCHEMES and DISHONESTY in this hobby to turn a buck, they didn't think money COULD be made any longer with hard work alone. Without a gimmick, a blade, or a label machine.

Mark my words, Robojo is the new archtype for sellers of raw books, and if not already, will soon be the premier seller of raw books on Ebay. And I know the CGC Forum must have to swallow that choking "salt" with lots of water.

Whatever my opinions are of CGC, if it weren't for CGC, there would be no hobby. Comics for investing would have long gone the way of the dodo, and that's a fact.

[AceVentura]

Every one knows that robojo/CK/whoever does not deal solely in restored books. Any one with one tenth of a brain knows that to run a successful grift you need to have some shred of a legitimate front.

Ace you give the impression that all of the books you/robojo/whoever are selling are heading to CGC and coming back blue. Fact is they have not all been sent of for grading. Even if they were all being sent and coming back clean doesn't mean those ringers won't be showing up again when "all the attention" wanes.

Wave that shiny image all you want it won't stay untarnished for long.

You're wrong about Robo not dealing in restored books. Over a dozen. maybe as many as two dozen have been auctioned on Ebay. More will be auctioned with full disclosure. Robo has been asked about this and has responded by email that he would be running a selection of fully disclosed restored books one week BY THEMSELVES, without any raw books auctioning over that period on his seller's list.

This is being doing so there is a clear and clean delineation between restored and unrestored material.

There's nothing wrong with restored books as long as full disclosure of all procedures are made. Restored books continue to be a viable economic alternative to owning unrestored books in similar grades and are in demand.

[stupidman]

You're facking scum, that's what it boils down to, Comic-Keys.

Except when you outted Ewert, that kicked ass.

[oxbladder]

BTW just what does CGC have to do with this? Why are you constantly using CGC to try and prove that CK/robojo/ whoever has not scammed some people out there and does try and pass off some restored books as unaltered? The question here isn't about CGC's ethics its robojo/CK/ or whoever that third person you want to be this week.

CK/robojo/whoever has sold a proportionally high number "innocent missed restoration mistakes". No guarantees, private feedback, and whatever other legitimacy tricks you want to claim can cover up that fact.

CGC's mistakes are just a convenient cover to try and legitimize that there isn't something fishy going on. There are enough people that I respect or not seeing fire not to believe them.

[AceVentura]

BTW just what does CGC have to do with this? Why are you constantly using CGC to try and prove that CK/robojo/ whoever has not scammed some people out there and does try and pass off some restored books as unaltered? The question here isn't about CGC's ethics its robojo/CK/ or whoever that third person you want to be this week.

CK/robojo/whoever has sold a proportionally high number "innocent missed restoration mistakes". No guarantees, private feedback, and whatever other legitimacy tricks you want to claim can cover up that fact.

CGC's mistakes are just a convenient cover to try and legitimize that there isn't something fishy going on. There are enough people that I respect or not seeing fire not to believe them.

ROBOJO has, or CK has? Which one. Let's get this straight. I don't see any of the letters C or K in robojo33. Do you? Robojo has private feedback, or CK HAD private feedback? Again, the lettering is alot different in those two names.

Specifically, what has ROBOJO33 done wrong? WHOM has Robojo bounced a trimmed or color touched book on out of the last 250 sold on Ebay, by accident or by, a you put it, design?

CK doesn't sell on Ebay any longer. What underhanded tactics has Robojo done? What proof is there that Robojo is not disclosing restoration on unrestored books? Is there any? Thusfar, I haven't heard or seen evidence of that. Do you have an answer for that, or do you refuse to discuss ROBOJO sales and must continually focus on CK sales, which aren't taking place on Ebay since last October?

Bring forth the evidence of Robojo's wrongdoings on Ebay. Al the chicanery and dishonesty Robojo is being accused of. All the restored books that he's slanderously being accused of. WTF is this evidence and WTF is this evidence?

[AceVentura]

You're facking scum, that's what it boils down to, Comic-Keys.

Except when you outted Ewert, that kicked ass.

Let he who is without sin throw the first stone. I'll bet that a "saint" of such a pious magnitude as yourself has a whole pile standing at the ready to hurl.

Let the deeds, the books that Robojo offers and their results speak for themselves. The results that the buyers get each and every one a blue label will speak with 1000 times the authority of evidence than all the words decrying Robojo as a crook on the CGC forums.

Buyers will look at their results, the smiles on their faces, and then laugh, like they're doing now when they read on the Forum how ALL of Robojo's books are garbage and Robojo is the biggest crook in the industry according to the "wise men" who hadn't a clue as to what Ewert was REALLY doing for nigh on three years.

Many who say they can see are really blind.

So let me ask you. What do you think. How disappointed are you that Robojo is turning out to be the leading seller of raw books on Ebay and has an incredible resto detection eye along with offering the best guarantee on Ebay if he slips up? That must irk you no end. Good!

[AceVentura]

BTW just what does CGC have to do with this? Why are you constantly using CGC to try and prove that CK/robojo/ whoever has not scammed some people out there and does try and pass off some restored books as unaltered? The question here isn't about CGC's ethics its robojo/CK/ or whoever that third person you want to be this week.

CK/robojo/whoever has sold a proportionally high number "innocent missed restoration mistakes". No guarantees, private feedback, and whatever other legitimacy tricks you want to claim can cover up that fact.

CGC's mistakes are just a convenient cover to try and legitimize that there isn't something fishy going on. There are enough people that I respect or not seeing fire not to believe them.

That's pretty simple. Matter of fact, I'm surprised that you would even need to ask a question like that, being considered a genius and all by your peers. MOST of Robojo's books are being submitted to CGC. Many of the buyers, whose identities are visible in the feedback, are buy raw and submit guys. Even if we go way out on a limb and project that only 20% are being sent to CGC, that's still 50 books thusfar. That's a healthy amount of spot-checking, wouldn't you say? If Frankenbooks were being filtered in, wouldn't you admit that there would HAVE to be at least a HANDFUL, maybe 4 or 5 out of 50 returned with resto or trim?

Now, to get to the ROOT of your question, OBVIOUSLY Robojo respects and believes in CGCs detection abilities or an offer of COMPLETE REIMBURSEMENT wouldn't be made if a book is returned NOT blue. Think about that. That could REALLY add up if either Robojo slips up, or CGC slips up.

Either way, Robojo is showing complete faith in CGC to agree that the books are blue worthy. Leaving that in their capable hands. They have all been blueworthy, will continue to be (unless auctioned as restored) and thusfar, CGC has called them impeccably and without bias. NO raw seller can flourish without a symbiotic relationship with CGC as they are the major source of legitimization for raw books, despite Ewert, the Batman #11, etc. Correct? A raw seller must ASSUME that each and every high grade book will be submitted, the dollar value dictating sooner or later. Without a blue label find, it's a return. That is NOT happening with Robo, and if it does, will happen with 1/100th the frequency of the majority of raw sellers, a pure accident. No one is God. Not even you, though the Forumites swear you are.

The blue wave of Robojo33 books will continue. There's no salt, and there's no mine.

[AceVentura]

The problem here is that hobbyists have FORGOTTEN that there's MONEY to be made, and ALOT of it, by hard work and KNOWLEDGE alone, and no shortcuts. It's become so used to crack out and reslab games, and microtrim, and pressing, etc, etc., that they've forgotten!

Bob Storms hasn't forgotten. He grades tight and has a good eye for resto, plus he's knowledgeable. HE makes money. Why can't someone else? You guys keep watching Robojo, keep watching the feedback, the books, the blue label results and the raw prices realized and soon you'll all realize that Robojo is 100% legit! Robojo will be considered the #1 source for unrestored high grade raw books on Ebay and it will be because it's well deserved and MAINTAINED. No other reason. The people winning books are NOT idiots, despite what you believe. That's why they keep coming back again and again.

[AceVentura]

And don't get me wrong because I'm outspoken. I welcome and appreciate ANYONE coming here from the CGC forum to state their mind and seek the CORRECT answers. The answers that the EVIDENCE should already point to.

I have no gripe with anyone over there, despite their lynchmob mentality, in this case, of a totally forthright seller with no evidence to prove contrary.

Robojo's business model for continued success is a simple one:

Knowledge + diligence + customer service + happy endings = $$$$$$

And there's absolutely not a shred of evidence to dispute that despite all the protestations of the CGC forum. And that formula will continue. It works! Why should it be changed?

[oxbladder]

Yawn! You are boring me.

Tick ... tick ... the clock is ticking on your grift.

[AceVentura]

Yawn! You are boring me.

Tick ... tick ... the clock is ticking on your grift.

REALLY? Maybe you know something I DON'T know? I seriously doubt that's a possibility pertaining to comics. Robojo doing something unethical? Illegal? Immoral? Selling raw unrestored books that come back blue and buyers are very happy with is now a crime? On which planet? Bizzarro world?

Let me understand this. If Robojo has an impeccable record due to dilligence, that's no good. If Robojo doesn't have an impeccable record because people are being shafted with undisclosed resto, that's no good either. So it really doesn't matter either way is what you're saying?

So in essence, you are saying, damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Is that right? Or are you too bored to answer?

Or possibly, you're inferring that since no evidence can be found through "ordinary means", maybe that news is so disturbing to certain CGC forumites that they may go so far as to attempt concocting evidence? Is that what you're referring to by, "Robojo's game will soon be ended"?

Or do you mean that the CGC Forumites are hard at work trying to stop the flow of Robojo's resto-free-assessed books on Ebay?

Good to know that the CGC forum members might be considering the FRAMING of a seller with an impeccable record to bring their wild theories to fruitation that don't fly in the face of the evidence if that is the case. But I won't take that as an automatic yes because you may be too bored to answer.

Robojo may have a failsafe mechanism clearly identifying ALL the minute features of each and every book Robojo transacts in the event something gets altered between the buyer and CGC by "accident".

Then again, this is all very boring to you. Graemlin wars with Greggy. Now THERE'S a cerebral challenge less boring and far more befitting your superior Krell-like intelligence! :)

#allhailme#

[AceVentura]

After 35 pages of pure BS, NOBODY has been able to come forward and PROVE all the myriad of accusations levied against Robojo with any EVIDENCE or INSTANCES of wrongdoing. Not even ONE of them!

All of it PROVEABLY slander and libel.

That's the bottom line here. Everything else is just more fuel for the fire. The fire itself here is that Robojo has an IMPECCABLE selling record, and for all their talk, there's no evidence to show differently.

[oxbladder]

Doesn't it get tiring referring to yourself in the third person?

[AceVentura]

Doesn't it get tiring referring to yourself in the third person?

Doesn't keeping a vigil on some imaginary clock ticking down get tiring? By the way, Is that the same clock ticking, tick..tick..tick..., that's been ticking for 5 years? Counting down CK winding up out of business and behind bars? That CAN'T be the same clock. I thought that clock was broken.

Or is that a different clock. Or maybe you're so tired and so bored that you didn't even notice if it's a DIFFERENT clock or not.

Here's what everyone would do very well to remember, unless they want THEIR clocks to start ticking... tick...tick...tick. Robojo33 is constantly being slandered as a dishonest seller of spurious, questionable merchandise. So far 35 pages of it. None of this can be proven. Know why? Because it isn't true. You know what that's called when charges are levied against an HONEST seller, selling good product, with the intention of crippling his business? Do you know that word? I'll help. It's called Slander and it's little brother Libel. The books sold themselves could and would prove that ALL of these public charges against Robojo are slanderous lies without exception.

Tick

Maybe some of you that are openly leveling charges of fraud, that Robojo is transacting restored books as unrestored, or is going to be transacting restored books as unrestored at some point in the future should counsult one of the forum lawyers before continuing on this present course of slanderous lies and unwarranted projection.

Tick...tick

After 35 pages of libel (remember that word from the previous paragraphs?), maybe investing a few pages on discussing what possible civil damage liabilities could result from blatantly slandering a seller with an impeccable selling record that is producing a consistant trail of blue label findings on his unrestored books would be well advised.

Tick...tick...tick

You were right about ONE thing. The clock is definitely running. Maybe that's a whole bunch of clocks ticking.

[oxbladder]

I will take that as a no then.

You might want to clarify the legal definitions of libel and slander terms since this is print it would more likely just be defamation. The funny thing is that you can't prove that what is said on this small forum or on CGC has impacted your robojo personality's sales.

I find it amusing too that your CK personality died much the way CGC forumites predicted. When eBay disallowed private feedback CK was gone shortly after ... or was that before. I would think that if your CK personality was as impeccable as you claimed at that time too this minor rule shift would n't have worried you so much .... afterall CK was a "honest" seller too right?

Heck if taking me to court means I can get all this "evidence" you have that your various personalities are honest sellers then it would be worth it. On the other hand you may want to reconsider on those grounds alone. Considering you did not want to stick around for this era of public feedback then you MUST have something to hide.

(See I can play the conspiracy games too CK/robojo/Stroud/Koos/Dupcak or whoever you want to be called)

[AceVentura]

Private feedback still troubling you? Robojo doesn't HAVE private feedback. Robojo probably has the most consistantly impressive feedbacl of any raw high grade silver age seller on Ebay, and STILL the accusations of selling undisclosed restored books keeps being made. What does that tell you about private feedback versus public feedback?

Robojo doesn't have private auctions. Each bidder can be seen and STILL, Robojo is accused of shilling auctions. What does that tell you about private versus public auctions?

What it tells me is that if a forum full of self-righteous Holy-Joes decide to target a seller, the fact being that all is on the up and up, the results proving this, and the buyers are all happy is a moot point. The Holy Joes will still attack their chosen target, warranted ot not.

It's a lynch mob, looking to "save the hobby" from buying accurately graded high grade material that all checks out blue label, just as represented.

You still haven't given me ONE, just ONE instance of Robojo's selling improprieties that's warranting all of this lynch-mob mentality.

35 pages, and not ONE instance of hobby wrongdoings by Robojo.

Do you have one or NOT? Do any of the other Holy Joes have one?

I'm curious. How about a straight answer on this since this SHOULD be the entire issue.

What has Robojo done wrong? Let's hear it.

[oxbladder]

What purpose would there be in posting evidence when all you would do is deny it or make up some huge diatribe about the evils of CGC and their forum members?

The best evidence that robojo is up to no good is that he associates with you .. or is you.

I do know that some of the "evidence" of no wrong doing was not correct. But I am not at liberty to reveal which "evidence" that is.

[AceVentura]

What purpose would there be in posting evidence when all you would do is deny it or make up some huge diatribe about the evils of CGC and their forum members?

The best evidence that robojo is up to no good is that he associates with you .. or is you.

I do know that some of the "evidence" of no wrong doing was not correct. But I am not at liberty to reveal which "evidence" that is.

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/46/08/23260846.jpg

Little do they know, the fisherman are going to be spending more time baiting their hooks than landing fish. Maybe they'll stop at the fish market on the way home and tell their families they "caught" their purchases?

Of course you're not at liberty. Nobody is. It hasn't been "manufactured" yet, because in my opinion, that's the ONLY way it's going to happen, unless of course you feel that a seller of exclusively raw books SHOULDN'T be allowed to sell ONE or TWO books out of hundreds that CGC MAY differ of opinion on. Right?

I have no doubt that Robojo WILL slip up one day and one, maybe two MIGHT get out that were legitimately missed. It HAS to happen. To think otherwise, that a raw seller could NEVER transact a book on which CGC differs of opinion on, is both unrealistic and extremely naive.

CGC misses once in a blue moon, right? What have forumites calculated their margin of error to be out of 1,000,000 submissions? I recall reading 1 to 2%? Is that about right? If it is, thusfar, as far as I know, Robo is averaging in excess of CGC's very slim margin of error.

Take one of your famous CGC polls. "How many sellers who have more than 200 raw high grade Silver or Golden age sales under their belt have NEVER slipped up and had ONE or maybe TWO that CGC differed of opinion on"? Metro? Showcase NE? MarvelSeller? Blazing Bob? etc, etc,. Run the poll and see how fast and how many make this claim.

I have no doubt that one day a book that slipped by Robo will come to light, whether "manufactured evidence" or just an accident. And, if and when it does, in the minds of the CGC Forumites, it'll make the transacting of 250 to 1000 books that DIDN'T slip by within that same time frame, the staggeringly overwhelming proportion of blue label submissions, just a loss-leader "mine-salting" operation to move that one or two "Frankenbooks" through the grist. There's classic Forumite logic for you! :D

Like I said, it's a lose/lose situation for Robojo.

[AceVentura]

".....to be of much help other than to watch what Koos says or try and bait him into hanging himself with his own words."

Do you really think that's going to happen before or AFTER Hell freezes over?

[AceVentura]

What purpose would there be in posting evidence when all you would do is deny it or make up some huge diatribe about the evils of CGC and their forum members?

The best evidence that robojo is up to no good is that he associates with you .. or is you.

I do know that some of the "evidence" of no wrong doing was not correct. But I am not at liberty to reveal which "evidence" that is.

Do you have ANY idea what REAL evidence is? I can give you a quick breakdown.

I'm a collector myself, and I've discussed what I collect at some length with other collectors, buyers and sellers, some of which would be VERY familiar to you, others not, through emails.

When people talk, or write, as in the thousands upon thousands of emails I've exchanged with hobbyists over the course of the past 8 years, I'm MORE than willing to listen. Especially when I'm getting priviledged information. The type that's usually prefaced by "You CAN'T tell anybody, but....". THAT'S the kind of info that always piques my interest especially. The kind that I SAVE. Some of thes type of emails COMING FROM CGC FORUM MEMBERS!!!! That's right! Guys that you may know and love. There may actually be traitors in your midst!

That's right. If you haven't guessed, I save INFORMATION about the hobby! That's what I collect, and I have quite a collection. Some of it observations, some of it personal experiences with having books graded (like the emails I shared on a Forum from Gorgo of the old CGC forums), some of it results of buys from dealers. All kinds of things. Some of which you would NOT believe, trust me, even if you read the emails yourself and KNEW how to decode headers to properly ID the email as unedited!!

Alot of this info, I've collected into subcategories and indexed together. One interesting sub group are 12 different sellers on Ebay who often bounce trimmed and color touched books on buyers with quite an alarming frequency. I've heard of a FEW of them being questioned briefly on the CGC Forums but the majority have skated by with nary a cough from any CGC forumite because THEY SELL ALOT OF CGCed books as grist for the mill!! Salt for the mine. Misdirection. Sound like familiar words?

My collection is very special, and ALWAYS being added to on a regular basis. So special that it's safely stored away, just waiting for that rainy day, should that rainy day ever come.

[oxbladder]

Oh yes that ever growing evidence pile of wrong doing that you have built up. Don't you realize that your are every bit as bad as those CGC guys you rail against?

"I've got all this evidence on scammers and some of it comes from hobbyists that care."

"So why don't you get off you but and use all this evidence?"

"Well ___ from the CGC boards claims he has a big pile of evidence against me and yet he has never used it. "

Blah, Blah, Blah. So on and so forth.

[AceVentura]

Oh yes that ever growing evidence pile of wrong doing that you have built up. Don't you realize that your are every bit as bad as those CGC guys you rail against?

No, actually, I don't.


"I've got all this evidence on scammers and some of it comes from hobbyists that care."

Most of it came by corresponding with people who had trimmed and color touched raw books bounced on them by sellers who ALSO move a majority of CGC and PGX slabbed books.


"So why don't you get off you but and use all this evidence?"

Who would listen? Did anyone listen about Hammer's "conspiracy theories about CGC being Heritage owned (and all that went WITH that)" years before the dawn of awakening came?

I told you, it's ALL saved for a rainy day. And if and when it ever IS used, it'll be for MY benefit. I've already shown the hobby MORE than enough, like Batman 11s, FTC anti-trust fines against grading services, Ewert, etc., etc., etc.. If and when it's all presented the hobby will DEFINITELY be impacted as if Galactus' "ultimate nullifier" was just activated.

I know. MORE "craziness" and conspiracy theories, right? Like Redhook once imaged, those 7 points on the list are STILL the TIP of the iceberg.


"Well ___ from the CGC boards claims he has a big pile of evidence against me and yet he has never used it. "

Blah, Blah, Blah. So on and so forth.

Yeah, I know. I really don't know ANYTHING, do I? Good. Let everyone dismiss me the same way my posts about the Heritage permanent auction archives two years before MasterChief posted the SAME THING on the CGC forums were dismissed.

Can't ANYONE apply LOGIC on the CGC forums? YEARS AGO was the time to take action and just say NO to dealer owned grading services. It's FAR too late for that now. Good or bad, CGC is a necessity. It's the nitrogen balancing out the oxygen in the hobby's breath of life. If that goes out, the hobby dies.

Anyone that CONTRIBUTES or SEEKS the demise of CGC would be seeking the demise of the hobby's cash flow. Back to the 80s! Maybe even the 70s!!

What do you expect hobby media to do now? Bring Ewert and other faux pas' to light? Stick a knife in the lifeblood of the hobby? Of course anything that might adversely affect the way people perceive CGC could damage the marketplace. Who the heck wants that?

You know what WOULD be nice, however (but we'll never see it because it's NOT as lucrative)? A grading service emerging that is NOT owned by a dealer with other dealers as affiliates. That's what the hobby THOUGHT it was getting in the first place. That's the way the package was tied up nicely with a pretty pink bow and presented as a "gift", an "invaluable service" to the hobby. Sadly, I knew from day 1 who the owners were, they're track record in coins, and what was discussed at the initial CGC staff, owner meetings. Nobody listened to crazy old Hammer. Just like nobody's listening now. Why should I waste trump cards now and hasten the demise of a lucrative hobby. It's only lucrative because of CGC, everyone who MAKES money on comics, raw OR slabbed owes them their gratitide, not hostility, and the hobby will continue to dance on a double edge sword or slip and cut in two. THAT'S the alternative if you want to stop dancing NOW.

[stupidman]

When did Charlton Guy become Comic-Key's wingman? He's eating that shit up!

[stupidman]

"I'm not "backing him up". I have said that repeatedly."

Sure seems like you are. And I'm trying to be objective.

[The Charlton Guy]

Look, I don't think anybody has put this guy through the wringer like I have, with the possible exception of FFB.

And I found nothing in regard to these current and recent auctions, absolutely nothing in some pretty long and hard image searching, emailing buyers, asking all of the "experts" on CK and again, grilling the hell out of the guy himself.

And like I said, I found nothing.

Short of buying a few of his books in order to really know for sure, which he is totally agreeable to by the way, I don't see that there is much else I can do.

That is why I brought to the CGC table what I did, that is; to ask for the proof. One iota of proof that any of the Robojo auctions for the last few months have been anything other than what he says they are.

And as I noted on the CGC board, nobody has any proof.

All there is is solid feedback from "happy buyers", no claims of undisclosed restoration or trimming from anyone on any venue.

I am not backing him up. I'm just saying, if you have proof that he is "scamming buyers" with these current and recent auctions, then by all means, show it to us.

[UnlimitedRealities]

Robojo, Hammer, Comic-Key's, Ace Ventura, all the same person?

Just curious.

[AceVentura]

Robojo, Hammer, Comic-Key's, Ace Ventura, all the same person?

Just curious.

You forgot to include Dupcak in that group as everybody else does. Then, the correct answer, much to the protestations of the CGC Forumites, would be, "No. THREE different entities" (as the Sith chancellor would conclude with... my lit-tle, greeeeeeen, frrrriend). :D

[AceVentura]

When did Charlton Guy become Comic-Key's wingman? He's eating that shit up!

Hardly. Maybe CG believes in the constitution. Maybe he believes that a defendant shouldn't be bound and gagged? I still don't understand who's on trial here? Robojo, ComicKeys, or Dupcak?

Nobody can find any Robo improprieties because there are none. CG notes that because he's done his own research instead of answering his own question bereft of any facts. Fact is that Robojo has a clean slate. Clean as a spooning* whistle and you know that. Which is why you keep reverting to discussing CK, who HAD returns on PLOD's JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER SELLER who EVER sold a raw book.

Robojo seems to have quite a handle on things with sales QUALITY, quantitiy, and excellent blue label results. Whoever is buying his books LOVE what they're getting because they keep coming back for more and the bids show it. Shills? Where? 99% of the Robo bidders are highly recognizable ebayers with LARGE feedback. Y'all can't stand it, that's plain to see, so all your Robo complaints are based on the old, played out CK rigamaroo who is NOT the same entitiy as Robojo and hasn't sold on Ebay in over a year.

Then, when you run out of CK banter, talk turns to Fantazia, who is NOT the same entity as CK, and who hasn't sold a comic in at least 13 years.

You try to superimpose any Fantazia BS on CK, and then try to lump both of those on Robojo. But guess what? Robojo's sales results speak for themselves and I think they will continue to.

And if all of that projecting isn't ridiculous enough, the ONLY argument that can be posed is that "Robo MUST be cracking high grade CGC blue label books and selling them graded the same or LOWER", of which there is NO proof of either, as CG noted.

Here's the irony. Until NOW, until Robo's submissions all came back blue, to the disappointment of CGC Forum members, nobody EVER said that it was a "bad thing" to crack slabs, let alone crack slabs to sell a book at a LOWER grade. WTF kind of argument is THAT as to "why Robo MUST be stopped". THAT'S ripping off people?

If one of the CGC forumites went stark raving nuts and decided to buy 250 to 1000 blue label CGC 9.4 Silver age $100 and up books, crack them, and sell them as raw 9.2s and 9.4s so he could LOSE money on every sale and whomever won could MAKE money, people there would be lining up to buy from him, and although thinking he lost his mind, be praising him for his philanthropy and generosity.

Robo gets the OPPOSITE reaction because you can't find anything the LEAST bit nefarious in all his dealings thusfar.

What a bunch of spooning* hypocrits.

[UnlimitedRealities]

I assume then that the aformentioned forumites would contend that all 5 are 1? And, if the 5 are three, what 2 are an alias to which others?

Forgive my nosiness, but with the laundry line having been hung here, I feel the need to create a scorecard.

Oh, yes, and is there a link handy to whatever venue Robojo uses to perform his alledgedly dastardly deeds?

[AceVentura]

I assume then that the aformentioned forumites would contend that all 5 are 1? And, if the 5 are three, what 2 are an alias to which others?

Forgive my nosiness, but with the laundry line having been hung here, I feel the need to create a scorecard.

Oh, yes, and is there a link handy to whatever venue Robojo uses to perform his alledgedly dastardly deeds?

Which dastardly deeds has Robojo been linked to? Robojo has been selling on Ebay since March, 2007. Do these dastardly deeds precede this period?

CK/Koos sold on Ebay from late in 2000 to Oct, 2006

Fantazia/Dupcak had a store and sold through the CBG from 1983 through about the Summer of 1994.

Which period do these dastardly deeds fall within?

[UnlimitedRealities]

Apparently you missed the word allegedly.



al·leg·ed·ly http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png

li/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-lej-id-lee]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation–adverb according to what is or has been alleged.


[Origin: 1870–75; alleged (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=alleged) + -ly (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=-ly)http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png

]


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)


Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.American Heritage Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4.html) - Cite This Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=allegedly&ia=ahd4) - Share This (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=allegedly#sharethis) (ə-lějd', ə-lěj'ĭd) Pronunciation Key (http://cache.lexico.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) adj. Represented as existing or as being as described but not so proved; supposed.

al·leg'ed·ly (ə-lěj'ĭd-lē) adv.

I have no dog in this fight, therefore, feel free to reserve your defensive posturing for someone who does. I'm simply a curious bystander.#popcorn#

[AceVentura]

Look, I don't think anybody has put this guy through the wringer like I have, with the possible exception of FFB.

And I found nothing in regard to these current and recent auctions, absolutely nothing in some pretty long and hard image searching, emailing buyers, asking all of the "experts" on CK and again, grilling the hell out of the guy himself.

And like I said, I found nothing.

Short of buying a few of his books in order to really know for sure, which he is totally agreeable to by the way, I don't see that there is much else I can do.

That is why I brought to the CGC table what I did, that is; to ask for the proof. One iota of proof that any of the Robojo auctions for the last few months have been anything other than what he says they are.

And as I noted on the CGC board, nobody has any proof.

All there is is solid feedback from "happy buyers", no claims of undisclosed restoration or trimming from anyone on any venue.

I am not backing him up. I'm just saying, if you have proof that he is "scamming buyers" with these current and recent auctions, then by all means, show it to us.

Maybe CG simply recognizes the one inescapable fact that nobody else can bring themselves to admit without clenching their butt cheeks and experiencing debilitating, shooting pains up their rectum. Robo ain't done nothing wrong. And complaining about rain when there's not a cloud in the sky is pretty strange and hypocritical to say the least.

[oxbladder]

No, actually, I don't.

Let me put it this way. There is no doubt in my mind that there is a large amount of chest beating and pontificating on the CGC boards. There is alot of posturing and fighting for the top of the high horse but in the end most do nothing.

I can tell you I don't do the searching for scam that you and others do. I am mainly looking out for books that I am interested in. Anything I am wary of I just don't buy or bid on. One of the reasons I don't cry scam and run to forums is because it is almost impossible to tell from online images to 100% certainty that anything is amiss with a book.

One thing I do is comment on these crusades to catch scammers and the lambasting of people that may have made a simple error or really have no clue about restoration and the problems so many have with it. I have commented many times that I despise this behaviour
perhaps I am doing it now with robojo33 but I listen to you defend him and CK and Fantasia now and I ask myself why is it that he would defend only these three people and not the many many others that CGC and other forums have crucified for what may well have been a simple mistake.

I don't know how many people I have heard mention the bad that CK and Fantasia have done in the past and yet you defend them. The only people you have felt like criticizing are CGC, Heritage, and other big names. I am not saying that they are not above being taken to task but there are others out there, smaller fish that may well have perpetrated more scams than these big guys.

If I don't like what a person is doing I will criticize them and try and explain what their errors can mean. While you try and paint me now as some sort of CGC fan I am not. I have never used their services and probably never will. I have criticized them and many forum members. I have criticized NOD members, STL, CPG forums etc. not because I think I am perfect but I am part of this hobby and 99% of the time I am a consumer and have a vested interest in seeing all customers being treated fairly and see that all the negatives that drag the image of this industry down are done away with so that more people might be able to step in and enjoy comics.

Many CGC people seem to have an agenda of some sort and it indeed leads them not to be very critical of CGC, its ownership and other misdeeds going on. I don't care if I don't like it I will say so. You don't seem to like the big fish, CGC (despite your claims now that they are indispensable), etc. and why? All I can really see is that either they have done YOU wrong or their minions have and you seek retribution. That is how I see both you and many of the people at CGC. Frankly it is draining the fun out of the hobby to see all these "concerned hobbyists" piling up their trump cards to one better the other while the rest of us have to tiptoe around wondering when one of these sinners you have information on is gonna get us.

Robojo may well NOT be a scammer but like I have said I am wary of you and you seem to have some sort of association with him so that makes me suspicious. Fortunately I will never have to find out the hard way because he doesn't sell stuff that I am interested in. I can tell you though that I would be more trusting of you and therefore robojo33 if you stopped pontificating and revealed more of your great secrets. If you were indeed the person that outed Ewert and other scams (its hard to tell because of your referring to yourself and others in the third person and self fulfilling circular logic) then thats great keep it up. There is no real reason to stop because the more of this bullcrap that gets outed the sooner it will get cut down.

If your info means bringing down CGC then so be it. While I agree that CGC has had positive impacts on the hobby it has also brought many negatives. It has many ugly warts that no one seems to call into question or wants to deal with so in the end I don't think I would really care if died. Perhaps a better model could be designed in its ashes. I really think the hobby would survive the disappearance of CGC.

If your evidence means the breaking of Geppi's stranglehold on all aspects of this hobby that would be great. You talk of the evils of CGC's ownership but you and others don't even question the great Geppi's monopoly. He owns the distribution, price guide, part of CGC (at least that is my understanding) in some way, etc. Basically I don't see how any of all this shenanigans could happen without Geppi's consent. And people bitch about Microsoft...

Anyway you can address my points or not I don't really care. I don't really care for this fight. I will lay off the criticism and speculation of robojo33 but I can tell you right now I won't be surprised if, down the road, he ends out being what the CGC pitchfork and torch crew allege he is.

[AceVentura]

You mistake my pointing out that Robojo has done nothing wrong except make buyers wildly happy with a trail of blue label findings for defending CK and Fantazia.

I don't believe I've been defending CK or Fantazia at all, merely pointing out that to slander Robo, CGC forumites MUST attack CK and Fantazia because they haven't a leg to stand on to attack Robo for wrongdoing.

Now they're on Eastern Color File copies, which once again, Robo has nothing at all to do with. Has Robo sold any? Off or on Ebay? A quick check of Robo feedback won't show any sales of Eastern file copies and if you email Robo and ask him to take a want list, it will be declined, Ebay being Robo's solesales arena.

They've tried to link CK to Eastern Colr file copies, and CK bought and sold ONE. A Spiderman 5 that CGC erroneously purple labeled NM 9.4, trimmed, cover cleaned.

Nowhere on the label was it mentioned that it was an Eastern file copy, cover with married interior, or anything of the like. CK won it for $550, and auctioned it on Ebay two weeks later, still in the slab, with the CORRECT explanation of what it was. An unused cover, which had been married to an interior and was NOT cleaned. It was just brilliant because the pulpy interior paper never darkened the cover in storage. With the correct explanation, it auctioned for well over $1000.00.

That was CK's sole experience with an Eastern file copy, and yet on Old Guy's site, CK is the main purveyor of some massive scheme to defraud using Eastern Color file copies.

Now, Robojo is accused of being that purveyor, though Robojo has not transacted ANY Eastern file copies to my knowledge.

[AceVentura]

Bringing Geppi's stranglehold and Heritage/CGC's vassal "kingship" to a grinding halt would not lead to a temporary desolation of the investment end of the hobby.

It would lead to PERMANENT desolation. Like Jeruselum after 70AD, the temple would NEVER be rebuilt. The current hobby investment climate took a thorough engineering project by a number of parties at the right time. Timing is everything in anything.

Anyone who profits from this climate would be a fool to knowingly want to contribute to this. Long live CGC.

[AceVentura]

OX: "I will lay off the criticism and speculation of robojo33 but I can tell you right now I won't be surprised if, down the road, he ends out being what the CGC pitchfork and torch crew allege he is."

Ox, did you happen to see the final results of Robo's auctions Sunday night? Five GRAND for a RAW FF 4 VF/NM. Look at some of the other prices. Incredible. Raw AND CGC sellers must be scratching their heads wondering WTF is going on!

Did you see the feedback profiles on not only the winners but the BIDDERS in his auctions? It sure isn't shilling or the work of two or three cohorts. They're All EXPERIENCED and well known high grade chasers whose feedback is LITTERED with CGC purchases and there's ALOT of them. They're repeat buyers too. According to their bidding profiles, They keep coming back and bidding higher and higher percentages, some right at the GP analysis SLABBED price thresholds! Some BEYOND! Amazing!

Due to hard work, a very happy clientelle, and positive cgc results, Robo has narrowed the gap between CGC slabbed prices and raw prices like no other seller on Ebay with the possible exception of Jerry Weist, ANOTHER seller with a spotless record and wildly positive feedback!

Ask yourself this. Can a "stupid" seller accomplish what Robo has done, the impact he's played on Ebay and the raw market in the past 7 months?
I don't think so. It CAN'T be an accident. And only a STUPID seller would try filtering even one or two frankenbooks through the parade of blue label findings and RISK tarnishing the incredible response, repeat and GROWING clientelle built up in so short a time by throwing purple label monkey wrenches into the gears that were so painstakingly maintained!

My guess is that Robo's dilligence, hard work, and business model will continue for a long time to come, and the auction results will get even BETTER if possible!

Robo shold be APPLAUDED for accomplishing so much in 7 months, instead of railed against. This is a turning point for the raw market AND slabbed market on Ebay. You'll see.

[oxbladder]

Clearly you have found some way to get your resto under the radar. Good job! I wonder who you will encourage to strive for such excellence next?

[AceVentura]

Clearly you have found some way to get your resto under the radar. Good job! I wonder who you will encourage to strive for such excellence next?

"MY" resto under the radar? I'm not a restorer. But your statement is very interesting and quite a twist of fate.

NOW you have little to no faith in CGC's ability to detect ALL modes of restoration. And if THAT'S the case, WHY shouldn't you doubt CGC's ability to NOT detect all modes of restoration?

If someone is capable of MISSING something that IS there, logically, wouldn't they be capable of MISdiagnosing something as resto that really ISN'T there, or ruling something that ISN'T alteration, some form of restoration? A false positive?

You seem to feel that CGC is somehow missing the work on all or some of Robojo's books. Do you think it's possible for them to miss the work on ALL of Robojo's CGC submitted books? Wouldn't they catch a FEW of them, or do you really believe that there is such a thing as "invisible" restoration to someone who KNOWS what to look for?That's what they're in business for, right?

You're inferring that CGC is completely inept. So wouldn't CGC's "blithering" on Robo's books equate to at least SOME CK books that were ruled purple label specimens that maybe DIDN'T have any alteration on them? Or does it just work one way, twisted in whichever direction as is needed to fit the appropriate bill as a convenient excuse? Like an excuse as to why Robo's books are all impeccable?

I'm just exploring the logic in your stating that when you always were so fast to CONDEMN CK based on any of CGC's PURPLE findings on CK books, and now you're fast to CONDEMN Robo based on all of CGC's BLUE findings on Robo books. I hope you can now see how little logic there is in that.

If the hobby WAS your concern, and anyone else's on the CGC forums, they would RALLY behind Robojo because something very important and very special is happening here.

Look at the prices for raw books that Robo is commanding. This is trendsetting. And it's GOOD trendsetting, ALL of it. There ARE no negatives to what's transpiring. Robo is singlehandedly resetting, revitalizing, and reinstituting interest in the high grade raw marketplace.

Buyers are EXCITED, and their bids and participation reflect their zeal. Interpreting the feedback, the bids, and the seriousness of the bidders, there can only be ONE reason for it.

The winners are opening their parcels and SMILING when they look at their Robo purchases. They're smiling when they post them to CGC and they're equally happy when they receive them BACK form CGC. Then they bid again, and again, and again, and others, reading of their approval join them.

ANY fears they have of getting a purple label return is quelled by the best raw guarantee ANY seller has ever offered on Ebay. Even better than CK's was. EVERY PENNY, all the postage, all the grading fees, all the out of pocket expense for the purchase, submission, and return REIMBURSED if Robo is WRONG about a blue label outcome.

In time, EVERY raw seller WILL have to offer the same guarantee or watch their bid prices on raw books falter in relation to the seller's that jump on the bandwagon and are willing to put their money where their mouths are as far as their resto detection skills. I'm starting to see copycat sellers already who in the past might NOT have been entirely on the up and up.

In time, SLABBED books will increase even MORE as the price of RAW books increase due to Robojo's trendsetting business model and other raw sellers who follow the lead.

In time, the low feedback sellers with mock FF1 and AF 15 auctions will stand out even in bolder relief, buidders avoiding them altogether, thereby saving buyers from sending their money off into oblivion.

In time, EVERYBODY involved that's honest, either buying, selling, or collecting wins, due to Robo's efforts. The only ones that "lose" are the dishonest ones and those that insist on grumbling about the sky falling and other shoes dropping instead of recoginizing ALL of these FACTS mentioned above, that point to ALL being well.

Take a bow, Robo. You certainly deserve it. The end results, bidder participation, and feedback speak for itself.

[oxbladder]

Uh I have never been one to say CGC has good detection. They are not bad but they are likely not as good as they think they are.

IT is an even stranger twist of fate that you are now extolling the virtues of CGC after years of being pretty much a CGC head hunter. Now why is that I wonder? Why are you now going so far as to saying that if CGC dies so does the hobby?

And you are now saying heritage is essential to the survival of the hobby. Hmmm. Not so long ago you had zero nice to say about them and though you know they mill books you say they are essential.

Supporter of Fantazia, CK, robojo33, CGC, and Heritage? Add to that the claim you are sitting on important information to collectors about scammers ho can I not think that something is seriously wrong here.

BTW robojo33's guarantee doesn't mean much you know full well that grading is only a small portion of the market. It also only cover IF the buyer decides to get a book graded. IT says nothing about if a buyer detects restoration him or herself or non-CGC restoration experts such as Ciccone. Semantics you say? For sure but those are EXACTLY such wordings that sellers will fall back on when dealing with returns. The guarantee also does not mean that robojo33 (or any other such seller) did not do the restoration themselves (nor does it mean that they did).

[AceVentura]

Uh I have never been one to say CGC has good detection. They are not bad but they are likely not as good as they think they are.

Absolutely true!


IT is an even stranger twist of fate that you are now extolling the virtues of CGC after years of being pretty much a CGC head hunter. Now why is that I wonder? Why are you now going so far as to saying that if CGC dies so does the hobby?

A headhunter? Or pointing out errata and the essence of who REALLY owns and pulls CGC's strings?
YES! NO CGC = A faltering hobby. No CGC = loss of investor confidence. Even if a buyer is SURE they trust a raw seller and their eyes, they STILL want someone to look and say, "It's safe".


And you are now saying heritage is essential to the survival of the hobby. Hmmm. Not so long ago you had zero nice to say about them and though you know they mill books you say they are essential.

That's correct. Heritage/CGC and the buyers in this hobby are like the Morlocks and the Eloi.


Supporter of Fantazia, CK, robojo33, CGC, and Heritage? Add to that the claim you are sitting on important information to collectors about scammers ho can I not think that something is seriously wrong here.

Supporter of Fantazia? When? For adding what I know of the Eastern file copies? Don't forget, I'm defending CK and I guess in some part Robo against the charges that CK or Robo sold "trimmed" Eastern file copies. First off, if they were mounted or married to interiors, they're ALL trimmed, not just the ones Fantazia sold. That's not defending, that's the truth.

And LOGIC, not defense, would dictate that if Wilson's assembled copies, and Fantazia's assembled copies had file stamps on them, then the stamped issues weren't the sole provenance of Fantazia. More facts and logic. Shouldn't I point out the fallacies in levied charges if I'm aware of errors in statements?

Neither CK, nor Robo have sold Easterns file copies, assembled them, or stamped them (except for the one that CK bought on Ebay and flipped the next week, still slabbed). If I point out that out, it's not so much defense as common sense.

On the CGC forums, all of Fantazia's ills are blamed on CK and Robo. Should I let those statements stand unchallenged when I know better?


BTW robojo33's guarantee doesn't mean much you know full well that grading is only a small portion of the market. It also only cover IF the buyer decides to get a book graded. IT says nothing about if a buyer detects restoration him or herself or non-CGC restoration experts such as Ciccone. Semantics you say? For sure but those are EXACTLY such wordings that sellers will fall back on when dealing with returns. The guarantee also does not mean that robojo33 (or any other such seller) did not do the restoration themselves (nor does it mean that they did).

The books that Robo sell fall into the area of the market that are prime candidates for submission. Robo auctions Spiderman 45s and 46s for example, in NM and NM+, not VF and below. You can be sure that that 90&#37; of the $200 and up Silver age NM and up books have headed and been returned, or are their way to and from CGC! Why is this fact such a stumbling block for CGC forumites?

One forumite won an Avengers 52 from Robo for UNDER $100. It was NM and he submitted it because he thought, "it was CGC-worthy". Another forumite win an FF 60 who submitted it because it was CGC-worthy. Both got back blue labels and I can assure you, looking at Robo's feedback, there are MANY MORE CGC FORUMITES who have NOT come forward, who have won books from Robo that yielded BLUE LABELS. I guess they don't wish to be ridiculed or have their book SHOT DOWN with comments like "it looks trimmed" if they post a scan, like y'all did to the winner of the FF 60 that CGCed 9.4 blue! Ironically, the forumites telling him it looked trimmed wouldn't know if a book was trimmed if they cut themselves on one! ONE of them SELLS TRIMMED BOOKS HIMSELF, among his UNSLABBED merchandise as per several emails I have from buyers whom he bounced MORE than 1 trimmed book on!

There's no such thing as a guarantee that covers every possible permutation or event, or cycle of events that could result in a person wanting to return a book.

From the auction descrip. itself. Show me another seller on Ebay who offers a guarantee this concise. Obviously, the guarantee, which is very clear on the details, satisfies the new and repeat bidders/winners because they have responded accordingly with their generous bids and the winner results have been very positive. If a buyer THINKS he sees resto, I guess that would fall within the general blanket of the 7 day approval the seller offers. Some on the Forums say it's not much of a guarantee at all. I disagree with them, and obviously, so do Robo's buyers and bidders!



THE BEST & ONLY TOTAL PURCHASE PROTECTION, RAW COMIC RESTORATION GUARANTEE ON EBAY:


If this comic is submitted to CGC or PGX and is returned either restored, repaired, trimmed, or qualified (a purple or green label), a full refund of auction price plus postage, the grading fee, and all postage incurred to send to and from grading, plus the postage to send it back for a refund will be reimbursed upon return to me.

[AceVentura]

"The guarantee also does not mean that robojo33 (or any other such seller) did not do the restoration themselves (nor does it mean that they did)."

There's only two ways to tell:

1) video evidence
2) Ewert scenario. Trimmer buys books that are PHOTOGRAPHED, part of a permanent database. Books show up at CGC trimmed, submitted by the buyer of the books. No other party present in the chain of ownership.

CGC is anti-trimming. So anti-trimming in fact that CGC makes a concerted effort to ruin CK's business because of some unfavorable returns. The same type of unfavorable returns that invariably ALL sellers of high grade raw books will get at times.

Heritage and CGC HAD Ewert dead to rights. Buys from Heritage, submits to CGC and somewhere in between the books are trimmed. And he "wriggled" away, out of CGC's irate anti-trim grip. Logically, what does that tell you?

It tells me that they weren't interest in pursuing their anti-trim stance with Ewert. Especially strange since CGC were VICTIMS and the buyers were vitimized by both Ewert and CGC's slip up!!! How double entendre'!

[oxbladder]

Funny I didn't mention anything about Eastern file copies. My understanding is that Fantazia sold the questionable file copies, CK handled one which definitely could be put down to a "mistake", and robojo33 has sold none and I have not seen anyone mention that he has. You are the one that seems intent on making ties and breaking ties with Eastern File copies.

Fantazia got into trouble for Eastern file copies and whatever else (I don't know much about Fantazia). CK mostly got accused of passing restored books as unrestored. Robojo33, as you have mentioned has not done anything as of yet but I do have information about one case you were trying to disprove that CG brought up.

I was simply commenting that if your are these three seller's ardent supporter that that does not lend much trust to robojo33. Like it or not a large number of people have bad things to say about you, Fantazia, and CK. There is lots of evidence out there that you may in fact be all three and all we have in your defense is a bunch of online claims.

The "case" is circumstantial of course but many people find it very damning. Of course it is not stopping people from buying from robojo33 despite the claims that he is just another incarnation of CK and co. Since a large amount of what CK sold may well have not been restored there were still instances where "mistakes" were made. Some would say that the frequency of these mistakes and the other circumstantial evidence paints a grim picture. Since you have some pretty good "inside" information, are a huge fanboy and your record is "spotty" robojo33 "suffers" either rightly or wrongly.

You have "evidence" of wrong doing by people whom I assume are the people you think are "coming after you". Since you don't use it I would have to assume that "the rainy day" is that day in court where your defense lawyer tries to use this "evidence" to attack the character of those who bring you to court.

As for the CGC/Ewert thing. I don't think many are happy with the way it resolved itself but that will likely come back to haunt them. They already paid for their mistake in this regard and some might say they are still paying because once ardent supporters are now uneasily on the fence or out of the CGC support camp. But you already know this and you also know this is just a matter of misdirection again.

[AceVentura]

Funny I didn't mention anything about Eastern file copies.

You didn't, but the file copies have been put but CGC forum members on CK's and Robo's resumes. The Easterns were sold as covers only, or as assembled cover and married interior by Fantazia, Wilson, Dolgoff, etc., etc., a number of dealers. Robo sells and CK is attacked. CK definitely has something to say when attacked.


My understanding is that Fantazia sold the questionable file copies, CK handled one which definitely could be put down to a "mistake", and robojo33 has sold none and I have not seen anyone mention that he has. You are the one that seems intent on making ties and breaking ties with Eastern File copies.

CK buying and selling that one file copy was no mistake. The book was bought on Ebay for next to nothing because it was misidentified by CGC and slabbed with a purple labe having the notes, "trimmed, cover cleaned". Bidders, for the most part, stayed away, and CK picked it up for about $500.

Two or three weeks later, after conducting some research, CK auctioned it, still in the slab, but explained alot more about it and the error in notes on the label. Being a Spiderman #5, in a 9.4 slab, with the cover as white as snow, it then auctioned for well over $1000, a very successful flip. No mistake at all.


Fantazia got into trouble for Eastern file copies and whatever else (I don't know much about Fantazia). CK mostly got accused of passing restored books as unrestored. Robojo33, as you have mentioned has not done anything as of yet but I do have information about one case you were trying to disprove that CG brought up.

I have no idea what case I'm trying to disprove. I really haven't tried to disprove ANYTHING or addressed any one particular Robojo "case". I don't know of any Robojo cases to comment on.


I was simply commenting that if your are these three seller's ardent supporter that that does not lend much trust to robojo33. Like it or not a large number of people have bad things to say about you, Fantazia, and CK. There is lots of evidence out there that you may in fact be all three and all we have in your defense is a bunch of online claims.

Again, I don't see WHERE I have "supported" Fantazia, who has been OOB for over 15 years. Mentioning that someone's accusation is wrong shouldn't be considered support. Facts either support or condemn, their CONTENT, not simply mentioning them.


The "case" is circumstantial of course but many people find it very damning. Of course it is not stopping people from buying from robojo33 despite the claims that he is just another incarnation of CK and co. Since a large amount of what CK sold may well have not been restored there were still instances where "mistakes" were made. Some would say that the frequency of these mistakes and the other circumstantial evidence paints a grim picture.

And just what do you think the results of intenselt scruntinizing ANY other seller of raw books would be if the CGC Forumites put THAT seller under the magnifying glass, each and every sale, for the past 6 years?

Try it sometime. Conduct your own research. Start a website and target someone. Make it known that you're NOT INTERESTED in what they sold if there was a happy ending, but you wanted reproted to you ANYTHING that could possibly be conceived as an indiscretion. How many sellers do you think would still look like bastions of the hobby if the CGC Forums and CGC crawled up their arse with magnifying glasses? They've crawled up Robo's arse and they STILL can't find any poop other than to make accusations by association. You can't find something if you don't make an effort, right? A tremendously concerted effort was launched against CK and they found some books that slipped by, right?


Since you have some pretty good "inside" information, are a huge fanboy and your record is "spotty" robojo33 "suffers" either rightly or wrongly.

99% of ALL sellers would be considered to have a "spotty record" IF they were subjected to the same intense spotlight as CK was. You think they're all saints?


You have "evidence" of wrong doing by people whom I assume are the people you think are "coming after you". Since you don't use it I would have to assume that "the rainy day" is that day in court where your defense lawyer tries to use this "evidence" to attack the character of those who bring you to court.

WHY would I be in court? I haven't done anything wrong. A mistake and a refund isn't anything to take someone to court over otherwise there would be courts set up in every large retail store in America, instead of exchange/refund counters. And yes, the lines WERE usually long, clogged with people returning defective merchandise. Now though, the stores simply direct them to the manufacturer.

Was there EVIDENCE of CK buying a CONFIRMED unrestored book that later showed up restored with no other party in the chain of ownership?

Not to my knowledge.



As for the CGC/Ewert thing. I don't think many are happy with the way it resolved itself but that will likely come back to haunt them. They already paid for their mistake in this regard and some might say they are still paying because once ardent supporters are now uneasily on the fence or out of the CGC support camp. But you already know this and you also know this is just a matter of misdirection again.

What am I misdirecting? Ewert is mentioned in the same sentences as Fantazia, CK, and Robo, all standing accused of doing the same thing, and yet Ewert is the ONLY ONE of which there is undeniable proof, a direct chain of provenance linking ONLY HIM to the tainted books. CGC had no interest though in pursuing him. They'd rather go after guys of which there is NO direct evidence.

CGC did the smart thing. They surpressed Ewert info from going mainstream. Any big business would have done the same thing and laundered their own dirt in similar fashion.

It doesn't really matter who is on the fence and who isn't. CGC slabbed books continue to rise in price dragging raw prices along with them. Anyone who wants to put a stop to that that SELLS comics for financial gain would be out of their mind to want to stop that.

That's speaking "badly" about CGC, by mentioning Ewert? That's just accepting and noting things for what they are. God bless them. As long as they stay solvent and maintain trust the hobby will fluorish. Just like Robo. As long as the blue label trail continues and buyers are happy with their purchases, Robo will fluorish.

But I do notice that the CGC Forum thread on Robo has come to a grinding halt. That can mean only 1 of 2 things:

1) They've run out of accusations, the proof of these unavailable
2) They're PLANNING something! Most likely something underhanded. Some tactic that they would NEVER ply against any other seller, "for the good of the hobby". Can't get the "goods" because there aren't any? Let's make some. You know. Like when a cop accidentally shoots someone unarmed and suddenly, the corpse is holding a weapon with the serial numbers filed off.

Have you seen "Fractured". Good movie.

[The Charlton Guy]

It doesn't really matter who is on the fence and who isn't. CGC slabbed books continue to rise in price dragging raw prices along with them. Anyone who wants to put a stop to that that SELLS comics for financial gain would be out of their mind to want to stop that.
.

It does matter.

[The Charlton Guy]

No question mark reply? :confused:

Well let me spell it out for you.

It matters because CGC has perpetuated the rampant fraud that is decimating the high grade comic book market.

Drive prices higher for sellers? Great, right?

NO! It is not great! It is a travesty!

An audatious statement? Yeah, maybe, but I think it's an accurate one.

See, CGC has legitimized the ongoing proliferation of Frankenbooks on the market, and ultimately legitimized sellers like you.

How?

By making no distinction between pressing, "minor" color touch, dry-cleaning, disassembly and married covers vs. the "nastiness" of trimming, full-blown (and intentional) color-touch, and outright extreme overgrading via shiny, glossy, plastic slabs (or in the "raw" market, manipulated scans or deceptive grading).

Like "Charlton Little" here has said on numerous occasions, we are at the point in time where NO high grade book can be trusted. At the point in time where a buyer would have to be stupid not to understand that damn near every "extreme" high grade GA, SA or even BA book has been messed at one time or another, by one means or another.

So CGC is supposed to "drag the raw book market behind it" in terms of price? Sorry. Not as long as there are sellers (yes, and CGC submitters) who will do whatever it takes to "enhance" and "beautify" and "prime-time flip" a book. And not as long as CGC is ready, willing and able to let pressed, "minor color-touched" or other Frankenbooks slip by them, likewise, in order to make a buck.

You people are KILLING the market, not helping it, not helping it in any way, shape or form.

Not helping it in any way, shape or form as long as perfectly good books continue to get messed with or outright butchered in order to line CGC's pockets, or the pockets of those who are willing to slash, squeeze, press, re-staple, trim, lie, cheat and kiss-up in order to line their pockets.

It is highly evident to me, and hopefully evident to more and more collectors, that the market is BOOMING while the books that we love suffer, and these books (and we collectors) will never be the same again.

The "High Grade Emperor" has no clothes.

[AceVentura]

It does matter.

I agree with you. It SHOULD matter, but sadly, it only matters to a paltry few compared to the overwhelming majority.

Back in 2000 I was corresponding with hobbyists, "Don't they SEE this for what it IS? They have their own network of sellers, their own Auction house for hyping artificial bid-inflated prices (Manning, at that time), and their own grading service. It's coins all over again, and history should have taught us what happened in THAT hobby, and wait... let's take a look at who's running this whole grading service/auction house/clandestine resto show. WHAT?? The SAME dealers that visited this madness on the Coin hobby?"

I remember singing that same old song for 5 years before anyone would actually admit that it MIGHT be true. The ones that jumped on the bandwagon made $$$$ and the overwhelming majority of those that didn't jump, DIDN'T make the swag.

So here we are, 8 years later, 1,000,000 books have been graded, and every 100 sales and associated scans present on the Heritage Permanent auction archives represent approximately 25 different books wth all the flipping, fanagling, and relabeling.

CGC is owned, partnered, and associated with people who literally control the hobby, its media, its breath. It's become a stranglehold at this point because if Ewert, PCS, Heritage, and the other myriad of things that SHOULD have given hobbyists pause were suppressed and ignored, just like millions of other businesses where the people who are making money from that business are in influential positions.

Grading services and altruism cannot co-exist in ANY hobby. This has been true of EVERY grading service in EVERY hobby that I am aware of. They are ALL dealer owned. You can make ALOT more money buying and selling than grading. The impetus for someone to WANT to start a grading service is to slab their OWN material. It will ALWAYS be like that.

What did John the Baptist say? "For kingdom's to change, men must change".

[AceVentura]

No question mark reply? :confused:

Well let me spell it out for you.

It matters because CGC has perpetuated the rampant fraud that is decimating the high grade comic book market.

Drive prices higher for sellers? Great, right?

NO! It is not great! It is a travesty!

An audatious statement? Yeah, maybe, but I think it's an accurate one.

See, CGC has legitimized the ongoing proliferation of Frankenbooks on the market, and ultimately legitimized sellers like you.

How?

By making no distinction between pressing, "minor" color touch, dry-cleaning, disassembly and married covers vs. the "nastiness" of trimming, full-blown (and intentional) color-touch, and outright extreme overgrading via shiny, glossy, plastic slabs (or in the "raw" market, manipulated scans or deceptive grading).

Like "Charlton Little" here has said on numerous occasions, we are at the point in time where NO high grade book can be trusted. At the point in time where a buyer would have to be stupid not to understand that damn near every "extreme" high grade GA, SA or even BA book has been messed at one time or another, by one means or another.

So CGC is supposed to "drag the raw book market behind it" in terms of price? Sorry. Not as long as there are sellers (yes, and CGC submitters) who will do whatever it takes to "enhance" and "beautify" and "prime-time flip" a book. And not as long as CGC is ready, willing and able to let pressed, "minor color-touched" or other Frankenbooks slip by them, likewise, in order to make a buck.

You people are KILLING the market, not helping it, not helping it in any way, shape or form.

Not helping it in any way, shape or form as long as perfectly good books continue to get messed with or outright butchered in order to line CGC's pockets, or the pockets of those who are willing to slash, squeeze, press, re-staple, trim, lie, cheat and kiss-up in order to line their pockets.

It is highly evident to me, and hopefully evident to more and more collectors, that the market is BOOMING while the books that we love suffer, and these books (and we collectors) will never be the same again.

The "High Grade Emperor" has no clothes.

This is all very true. But true only of sellers that are on the INSIDE of the CGC circle looking out, not outside looking in. The chosen few. A RAW seller that's sitting OUTSIDEthat inner circle BETTER be selling books that aren't futzed with at all or CGC will not hesitate purple flag them.

[AceVentura]

BTW, the same thing happened to cards and coins. For every 1 VIRGIN piece in a high grade slab, there are 5 pieces in high grade slabs that are NOT in original state.

Grading services, and the demand of the public to garner ever higher grade slabs, fuel the fanagling. There's only so many high grades available? Only 2 of something and 20 people are willing to pay through the yin-yang for them? No problem. We'll MAKE it for them.

Ever see SNOW-WHITE 1914/15 Crackerjack baseball cards sitiing in PSA 8/9 and SGC 84 to 96 slabs with razor sharp corners?
Collectors that scarf them up for astronomical prices don't stop to think, "snow white???!!! These cards were printed on CREAM-COLORED stock. If the whites were cream colored 90 years ago, HOW can they IMPROVE with age from cream colored paper to bone-white paper?? Also, the cards came INSIDE a Crackerjack box. HOW can so many gem white bordered, razor sharp edged cards have survived WITHOUT a trace of carmel stains (looks like foxing)"

No they don't ask that. They just BUY, because next year, they'll flip for double their money. Who's asking questions like that when they consistantly take $12,000 from their left pocket X God knows how many, and put back $24,000 the following year into their right pocket, year after year?

Dealers make incredible profits by owning their own grading services. Those hanging onto their coat-tails do likewise. The upper monetary echelon of the hobby reaps profits as well, though not at the same level, and these are the guys that although number a small percentage, are responsible for the majority of $$$$$$$ that moves through the hobby.

I don't envision any changes anytime soon. The time for change was 5 to 7 years ago. That window is now closed.

[The Charlton Guy]

I don't envision any changes anytime soon. The time for change was 5 to 7 years ago. That window is now closed.

Windows are fragile things, and often need to be replaced.

Especially when they are in the neighborhood of Dennis the Menace types with baseball bats.

[AceVentura]

Windows are fragile things, and often need to be replaced.

Especially when they are in the neighborhood of Dennis the Menace types with baseball bats.

What's needed is a grading service owned by a guys that GRADES and detects resto like the CGC graders, but isn't OWNED or affiliated by anyone who buys and sells comics.

It'll never happen. It never has before in any collectibles field, and it won't anytime soon because it's nowhere near as profitable as buying and selling, ESPECIALLY if you own your own label machine and retial outlets!

Anyone qualified is buying and selling and would be giving up counting hundred dollar bills to roll quarters.

[ciorac]

What's needed is a grading service owned by a guys that GRADES and detects resto like the CGC graders, but isn't OWNED or affiliated by anyone who buys and sells comics.

It'll never happen. It never has before in any collectibles field, and it won't anytime soon because it's nowhere near as profitable as buying and selling, ESPECIALLY if you own your own label machine and retial outlets!

Anyone qualified is buying and selling and would be giving up counting hundred dollar bills to roll quarters.

Why don't you start one? You seem to have a fair amount of time on your hands, money, and knowledge of grading and restoration. Sounds like a perfect situation.

Didn't I read though, that you are a doctor? So you may not have time. What type of medicine do you practice?

[The Charlton Guy]

Didn't I read though, that you are a doctor? So you may not have time. What type of medicine do you practice?


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/dock.jpg