I hate the High grade collectors.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

No offense to anyone, but I like to feel comics with some reader wear and even/especially ink on the coupons. Doesn't it make you excited when you find a book with some writing or particular wear? Don't you feel like your holding someone elses treasure? I'm seriously thinking about finding a way to mark my books and send them out again. I know I'll never be a pedigree, but why not mark my books?

[Red Hook]

Don't be a hater. Just enjoy what you want, and don't dis anyone else for what they happen to collect.

Red

[jaydeebee]

No offense to anyone, but I like to feel comics with some reader wear and even/especially ink on the coupons. Doesn't it make you excited when you find a book with some writing or particular wear? Don't you feel like your holding someone elses treasure? I'm seriously thinking about finding a way to mark my books and send them out again. I know I'll never be a pedigree, but why not mark my books?

I've said many times that while I want the best comics I can afford (that's key, being able to afford them), that I'm not a snob. As long as a comic is complete and doesn't smell like poo, I'll probably buy it. The things I can't abide, aside from offensive odor and stains, are missing pages and loose center-folds.

I don't hate the high grade collector, I just collect and enjoy my comics differently. :)

[Capitalrecoveryman]

As a buyer of mid-grade Silver-Age books, I would argue that high grade collectors are doing me a favor by not having their dollars compete with mine, allowing me to get sweet bargains. So, high grade collectors, I love you man.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

All good points. I shouldn't be a hater, enjoy the books you choose and they aint competing for my GD/VG books.

[Red Hook]

I've got an assortment of both high and low grades. I appreciate them for different things. Nothing like taking a reader copy, forgetting about handling it like Dresden china, and just reading and enjoying the darn thing! #allhailme#

[jordanscott]

I'm deliberately a mid-grade collector, mainly f/vf range when I'm looking for stuff for my runs.

As I work on older stuff, early SA or even GA somebody, that will drop.

It's just a finance thing for me. I keep my hobbies on tight but reasonable budgets and just can't afford the 9.4/9.6/9.envy copies of early JLA or GL. Well, the raw equivalents.

I'm not keen on writing on the books I buy but I tell yah...I love the smell of well aged paper. I love to just open the bag and let the smell roll out for a second or two.

[MutantKeys]

I hate you too!

[stupidman]

C'mon hippies, ya gotta hate some aspect of collecting, it's only natural. If you say you don't, you're lying!

[topofthetotem]

I don't hate anybody, there is enough room for all of us in the sandbox.
I do get sad seeing some of the collections out there because I know I'll never have a lot of those books.
Do yourselves a favor and check out bangzoom's thread in the CGC GA section,Truly spectacular but also a bit crushing.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

I just get sick of all of these speculators who buy slabbed books as an investment and never read comics at all. But, a good point was made, it keeps them from bidding on my readers. And, of course, I have a small selection of HG books and slabbed books and there are some books I want in high grade, but most of the time high grade for me is above an 8.0 with no sub crease or any major damage.

STU is correct. Let's love the hate, don't let the hate go to waste, share it. I hate cowboy comics too, but I kinda like 'em as well because they remind me of evil and satan and stuff like that.
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/0/6/0/3/0/6/webimg/130419788_o.jpg

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Beedy little eyes.

[oxbladder]

I hate haters. Collect/read/etc what you want I don't care just don't tell me what I should be collecting. BTW I am not a high grade collector but I do try and buy the highest grade copy I can afford (which can be G/VG all the way up to NM)

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Yeah!!!! That's right on!! Stop being a hater O.P. You jerk.

[stupidman]

I don't hate anybody, there is enough room for all of us in the sandbox.

Well, I didn't really mean specific people when I said "some aspect of collecting", rather something in comic collecting. Hate water stains? Hate Rob Liefeld? Hate manga? Hate ret-con? Please feel free to insert "dislike a lot" instead of "hate" :-) Saying you like every single aspect of comic collecting is like saying you're a baseball fan and that you like every team in the league...

[topofthetotem]

Well, I didn't really mean specific people when I said "some aspect of collecting", rather something in comic collecting. Hate water stains? Hate Rob Liefeld? Hate manga? Hate ret-con? Please feel free to insert "dislike a lot" instead of "hate" :-) Saying you like every single aspect of comic collecting is like saying you're a baseball fan and that you like every team in the league...
Ok I'll give you Rob Liefeld. :D

[stupidman]

I had to have a sure bet in there somewhere...

[Capitalrecoveryman]

I hate that I speculated on a bunch of crappy Independents in the 80's when I could've been buying prime early 70's Bronze for next to nothing.

I hate that I spent money on early 90's football cards when I still could've been buying Bronze for next to nothing.

[Evil Parsnip]

hey if it wasn't for high grade seekers who'd buy all those trimmed books?

[jaeldubyoo]

I’m the type to settle for less than high grade. I can be satisfied with a lesser grade, especially if it’s high-priced or HTF. As long as it’s complete and not horribly mangled. Even then, if the price is right, I can’t complain too much.

Most of the time, I shoot for fine or better. Things I avoid are missing pages, big chunks missing and badly water-stained copies. Of course, I would love to have anything in high grade. Who wouldn’t?

Oftentimes, it’s a matter of collecting within your means or what you’re willing to pay. I certainly don’t begrudge anybody who only wants ultra high grade comics. Collect what you want.

[djpinkpanther67]

I don't know if I am considered a "High Grade" collector. Though I have some decent books, most aren't top census, (or even CLOSE for that matter) :lol: I like to buy the highest copy I can afford, or at least a copy I know I won't want to upgrade anytime soon. Different strokes...

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

"I hate that I speculated on a bunch of crappy Independents in the 80's when I could've been buying prime early 70's Bronze for next to nothing."

Palabra. Although here I couldn't have found bronze or SA often, but I did try.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I don't hate those who can afford better comics than I. At this point, I'm just getting back into comics and collecting and I'm trying to collect a lot of comics from my youth. That's going to be a lot of comics. If I can buy 10 reader copies for the price of one Mint condition one, I'm going to do that. These are, after all, for me to read, look at, and feel nostalgic over. Not to keep in a special climate controlled room and handled with rubber gloves and forceps. ;)

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

It's not about whether they collect high grade as much as they wont buy low grade. That's what pisses me off. But then again, I get to buy a bunch of GA for sometimes as little as $2-3 an issue, because they wont buy them. I just wonder if I'll ever be able to sell low grade GA because the old guys have $ and tend to only buy high grade.

[jaeldubyoo]

to keep in a special climate controlled room and handled with rubber gloves and forceps. ;)

Sounds kinda kinky.

Oh, you mean comics. Never mind.

[ryan elliott]

It's not about whether they collect high grade as much as they wont buy low grade. That's what pisses me off. But then again, I get to buy a bunch of GA for sometimes as little as $2-3 an issue, because they wont buy them. I just wonder if I'll ever be able to sell low grade GA because the old guys have $ and tend to only buy high grade.
Some of the low grade books that Ive bought are truly hard to find.Most of the time I just want the book.I would love to have a nm comic collection.But I simply cant afford it.Way too many books and so mid grade is fine with me.

[OldGuy]

Over all prices on mid to low grade comics continue to decline, mostly due to the prices being paid for high grade books.

Not only should us bottom feeders not hate high grade collectors, we should thank them. Unless you're foolish enough to think that your mid to low grade books might be sold for a profit someday. If that's the case then you're screwed. :D

[ryan elliott]

Over all prices on mid to low grade comics continue to decline, mostly due to the prices being paid for high grade books.

Not only should us bottom feeders not hate high grade collectors, we should thank them. Unless you're foolish enough to think that your mid to low grade books might be sold for a profit someday. If that's the case then you're screwed. :D
Its all about how you you hold your books.The Famous Funnies Frazetta run that I bought 15 years ago is doing fine.All low to mid grade.
But in general you are right.Half book on many marvel SA books less than vf.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

For me, when I buy a GA book, I think of it as preserving the book. Y'know like that guy that shows up in one episode of many Sci-Fi shows where the ep or the guy himself are usually called something like "The Librarian" and by the end of the show the Main characters from said Sci-Fi show somehow end up blowing up the library and "setting him free". Where was I? Where am I?

Anyway... I have some GA books that are just falling apart, they are literally disintegrating. They have little value and therefore I probably wont slab 'em, but they are still precious to me.

LISTEN UP FOLKS.... Here is why I said I hate the high grade collectors and you should all probably understand this. Remember the 90's? With all of those multiple chromiun prisma blah blah blah crap? It was motivated by speculation. I think that a lot of the people buying high grade comics don't read comics, they are just buying them as investments. And I'm guessing that a lot of them only buy a few and they buy them in the highest grade they can so that they can show them off to there rich yuppie friends. I have two friends, one here, and one in the East like this. They never read comics now, but they like to "invest".

[Capitalrecoveryman]

We seem to throw around the terms ‘speculator’ and ‘investor’ like they’re interchangeable, but they’re not, IMHO. The speculator is the guy who bought all the Captain America #25’s from my LCS in hopes of either a quick flip, or naively for a profitable hold. I actually find that guy mildly annoying because he causes me to break up my run on a book I’ve been collecting each month, but what the heck, eventually I can find my book at cover price.

Investor guy is the one who will pay serious loot for a 9.4 Avenger’s #4 to diversify his portfolio. Personally, I think he’s good for the hobby. I have no doubt the $ he pays for that slabbed funny book is either getting spent on other funny books, thus growing the hobby, or helping to keep a comic book dealer afloat in the bidness.

I also think the “you can’t read it, so you’re not collecting right” is a red herring. I’ve never read my Avenger’s #4, but I’ve read the story 100 times, in my late 70’s Captain America paperback book. That and I collect unplayed with toy cars from the 70’s. Their real purpose is to have someone crawl around with them and make ‘vroom’ ‘vroom’ noises, but mine will stay minty fresh in their boxes and blisters. Guess that makes me a Yuppie investor of toys.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

I agree with your definitions of investor and Speculator. I also agree with your assessment (ugh huh huh, he said ass) of one being annoying and the other being good for the hobby.
Toys are different than comics, I don't want to play with my Spawn toys, I just want to look at them, which I can without opening them.

I also agree with “you can’t read it, so you’re not collecting right” However, the kind of people I was talking about are the kind that never ever read comics and just buy them so that they can get the new guide every year and look to see if there "investment" is paying off. Those peeps bug.

^^Yuppie, heh heh.

[Mr.Digglerstanley1]

Over all prices on mid to low grade comics continue to decline, mostly due to the prices being paid for high grade books.

Not only should us bottom feeders not hate high grade collectors, we should thank them. Unless you're foolish enough to think that your mid to low grade books might be sold for a profit someday. If that's the case then you're screwed. :D

I agree with that 100%. My comfort zone is between VG thru vf-/vf. I don't HATE HG collectors although sometimes I feel a "look what I've got" attitude when they show off the newest acquisition. But even that's cool. I like to look at super high grade books as much as the next guy. The thing that chaps my azz is parading around with 9.8's of books that can easily be found in quarter boxes at most conventions or comic shops. But to each his or her own. Remember, this is a hobby for most and we all have our collecting goals. Comic collectors get enough HATE and DISRESPECT from plenty of closed minded people. No need to hate on our own. #cheers#

Jason

[arexcrooke]

I agree with your definitions of investor and Speculator. I also agree with your assessment (ugh huh huh, he said ass) of one being annoying and the other being good for the hobby.
Toys are different than comics, I don't want to play with my Spawn toys, I just want to look at them, which I can without opening them.
How in the world are these twon different? Or is it because you collect toys and therefore is cool and ok? I just want to look at my slabbed books, and guess what, I can do that without opening them. How hypocritical is that?

I also agree with “you can’t read it, so you’re not collecting right” However, the kind of people I was talking about are the kind that never ever read comics and just buy them so that they can get the new guide every year and look to see if there "investment" is paying off. Those peeps bug.

Again, you talk out of both sides of your mouth. In one post you are saying that people need to collect how they like, then you come and make this assinine post about how collecting books you cant/dont read is wrong? Dude, grow up a little and try and understand that your worldview is not the be all end all.

How many people do you know that buy a book/s dont read them (ill ignore that you can enjoy a book without reading it, but that might be too much for you to comprehend) and only buy them for investment purposes? #popcorn# How many? Right, im sure you can name multiple people who do this.

^^Yuppie, heh heh.


It's not about whether they collect high grade as much as they wont buy low grade. That's what pisses me off. But then again, I get to buy a bunch of GA for sometimes as little as $2-3 an issue, because they wont buy them. I just wonder if I'll ever be able to sell low grade GA because the old guys have $ and tend to only buy high grade.

Lemme ask you something? Why would I, you, or anyone else for that matter, buy something we dont like? It is obvious you enjoy collecting lower grade books. Cool. I dont. I want and collect HG books. So why should it piss you off that I wont buy beaters? VF/NM is about the bottom end of my raw books. What is so sinister about that?

Also, can you make any more assumptions?Do you have cognative abilities beyond stunted rationale such as "me collect good, you collect bad"

This is my first post here, and Ill pop in from time to time, but god knows I hope most posters are a little more open minded than what Ive read in this first post.

[DrWatson]

Now you've done it, Crooke. No Buffalo Chips for you. :mad:

[Mr.Digglerstanley1]

Also, can you make any more assumptions?Do you have cognative abilities beyond stunted rationale such as "me collect good, you collect bad"

:lol:

[arexcrooke]

I am doing pennance right now.

[stupidman]

There is a difference between HG collectors and HG speculators/flippers. I'd much rather hate speculators and flippers, since that's an easier stance to defend :)

[arexcrooke]

I wont argue that with you that there is a difference. But i dont "hate" either type. I speculate some and flip when I can with the purpose of making money, for whatever ends. Be it to use the money to buy more funny books or other things I want.
Recently sold my HG slabbed GL collection to finance the purchase of a piece of land. Sold books in the past to buy more books. Some i spec'd on, some I bought as keepers.
One of my few pet peeves is to show so little tolerance to the way people collect.

[jaydeebee]

..I get to buy a bunch of GA for sometimes as little as $2-3 an issue, because they wont buy them. I just wonder if I'll ever be able to sell low grade GA because the old guys have $ and tend to only buy high grade.

Where are they? What are they? I'd buy them! :)

[jaydeebee]

Lemme ask you something? Why would I, you, or anyone else for that matter, buy something we dont like? It is obvious you enjoy collecting lower grade books. Cool. I dont. I want and collect HG books. So why should it piss you off that I wont buy beaters? VF/NM is about the bottom end of my raw books. What is so sinister about that?



Of course some people do buy/collect things they don't necessarily "like", they are speculators. The 1990's comic boom then bust can largely be laid at these people's collective feet. Again, I'm not saying that's you, just saying that those people do exist. :?

As I probably said earlier in the thread, I don't hate anyone, (except for that one guy) and I especially don't hate anyone for what they collect or how they choose to collect. :D

[stupidman]

As I probably said earlier in the thread, I don't hate anyone, (except for that one guy) and I especially don't hate anyone for what they collect or how they choose to collect. :D

Right - don't hate the person, hate the comic itself, objectively, divorced from the person. Good advice :D

[Red Hook]

Why hate at all? What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understanding?

I just feel it's silly to dump on anyone else's collecting interests, and as for motivation? How the heck can you get inside someone else's head?

It is what it is. Enjoy what you collect and at least give a nod to everyone else. Peace out.

Mahatma Red #oldie#

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Ohw come on, where's all the haters? We can't all be player's.
HATE HATE HATE!
WHO DO WE APPRECIATE!
NOOOOOOO ONE!
YEAH RAH RAH YEAH!
I'm slowly loosing it.

By the way, I named my new dog Peace! Although I was leaning towards four O but I figured that might mess with the dogs head when I'm scolding her, you know the whole good/very good thing.

[stupidman]

Why hate at all?

'Cause hippies suck. (PS - Petruli cannot cover the smell of body odor, it only mixes with it and makes it worse.) I just don't go for the "let's all hold hands" mentality. If people think something sucks, I don't see why they should have to hold their tongue. I appreciate honesty, but then again, I have thick skin.
Of course, I do think you should be able to back it up with some "facts". Feel free to tell me what I collect sucks.. I'll tell you why it doesn't. I can give you some "facts" as to why I hate Liefeld's art, why I hate what Joe Q has done with Marvel, etc. I see people say all the time "I hate Ang Lee's version of Hulk" and as long as everyone agrees, it's ok?


I just feel it's silly to dump on anyone else's collecting interests, and as for motivation? How the heck can you get inside someone else's head?

Like I said, I do think the "dumping" should be focused more on the product than the person, but when you have idiots like Cal with 900 copies of a book just so he can call himself "King", it's not easy. Motivation can be more of a hindsight thing, but when I see $2,500 books being sold for $7,500 b/c it has Frazetta's sig, for sale like 2 days after it was signed, I don't feel bad calling them grubby speculators.


It is what it is. Enjoy what you collect and at least give a nod to everyone else.

What do you mean by "nod"? Does that mean you should be a hypocrite and not express your true feelings? No, I'm guessing you mean more "If you don't have anything nice to say...". Aw, what fun is that? :(

[MrBedrock]

Hate me (I'm a high grade collector), hate my books (they are very pretty), hate the way I spend my money (frivilously, according to some).
But realize that you are just wasting your own time thinking about it and hating.

[Sgt Major Secrets]

I hate people who say they don't hate anybody.

If you really want to learn to hate, just work retail. You'll discover people who should be hated, hated often and by someone who knows how!

[jaeldubyoo]

"Can we all just get along?"

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/322/rodneykingtu6.jpg

[oxbladder]

I hate haters

[Quato]

I hate people who say they don't hate anybody.

If you really want to learn to hate, just work retail. You'll discover people who should be hated, hated often and by someone who knows how!

The customers that get all irate can be the most fun to deal with. I haven't worked retail in years, but when I did I would have a lot of fun messing with them. Some customer would come up all irate. I'd be so polite it just infuriated them more. They want you to get angry, so they make all these threats. I'd say things like "I'm sorry you feel that way ma'am/sir, but company policy does not allow me to honor your request." I'd stick to my original answer no matter how much of a tantrum they threw. They'd blow a gasket. You could always say "I'll be sure to bring up your complaint with the manager tomorrow." Of course they want a resolution right then and there, so saying "tomorrow" just pisses them off more. Just keep playing the role as polite hapless peon. It can be really funny. A drunk guy wanted to cash a check after hours once. He was holding up the entire line at the cash register. About 8 people were backed up and I told him "We have no available money to cash checks after hours sir, you'll have to come back tomorrow." After seemingly endless insults and threats he finally wandered off. Every single customer in line after him complimented me afterwards for staying so calm.

I had a lot more problems with idiotic supervisors. One night a supervisor tried to lock me in the store so that I'd have to help stock at night. Somebody had called in sick and he was short of help. I rolled my eyes, bypassed the lock on the managers office door and grabbed a key to let myself out the back door. I had the backup in charge lock the door behind me. I walked around the building, knocked on the front glass and waved goodbye to him. The next day a daytime manager called me upstairs. He tried to reprimand me but I told him there were three options. 1) Do what I did. 2) Call the district manager at home and wake him up. 3) Call the police. The daytime manager quickly dropped the subject. Years later I had an instance where I was 30 minutes from going home. I had stocked about 650 cases of material by myself. 6 guys were working on a different order of 800 cases. They weren't even half done. The boss once again asked me to work overtime and I told him I couldn't. He went upstairs and lied to the manager saying I had cussed him out. He tossed in all these words I had not said and put it on a written warning. I was trying to finish up a few things before I left. He handed the write-up on on the aisle. I looked at it. I rolled my eyes. I crumpled it up into a ball and threw it away. To this day, the lady who was working on the aisle besides me will remind me if I see her. She was completely horrified and shocked that I really, truly did not care. Of course it helps to be twice as efficient & productive as any other employee.

Customers... they are a riot. Idiotic bosses.... they can be annoying. I still laugh at both though. No need for hate.

I remember years ago pissing off a sports card dealer. He was boasting about some CGC comics he had for sale on the usenet. He posted a link to an image. I followed the link and the first thing that stood out for me was an obvious scratch on the CGC case. I wrote back and said something to the effect that if I wanted a perfect book, why would I want it in a scratched CGC case. He got all huffy and denied the case was scratched. I told him he was wrong, there was clearly a scratch present in the scan. I told him that I should start a business grading the CGC cases so that nobody overpays for CGC books. After all, a flaw is a flaw. What perfectionist wants a scratched display case? I don't know of any. Sometime after that the CGC came out with a service to replace the cases. I see that they also ship in a plastic bag. I would love to take credit for all the extra expense people are paying, but I know others had to have spotted the hypocrisy of it all.

Q

[MrBedrock]

After all, a flaw is a flaw. What perfectionist wants a scratched display case? I don't know of any. Sometime after that the CGC came out with a service to replace the cases. I see that they also ship in a plastic bag. I would love to take credit for all the extra expense people are paying, but I know others had to have spotted the hypocrisy of it all.

Q
I haven't spotted the hypocrisy, could you please explain it to me?
You seem to have everything all figured out.

[stupidman]

I hate people who say they don't hate anybody.

And then the Sarge comes along and says in one sentence what I couldn't in 3 paragraphs #clap#

Maybe "hate" is too strong a word for you guys. I will use "sucks" from now on. I don't hate Liefeld's art anymore, now I just think he sucks.

And Quato's right - in the retail world, it's much more satisfying to "kill 'em with kindness" then to lose it on a customer :)

[Mac Man]

I haven't spotted the hypocrisy, could you please explain it to me?
You seem to have everything all figured out.



I think irony is the correct term? #dunno#

[jaydeebee]

I told him that I should start a business grading the CGC cases so that nobody overpays for CGC books.

Q


That's funny. One of the first threads I ever posted on the eBay board was a tongue-in-cheek offer to professionally grade CGC cases. This was during the time of the big CGC uproar which nearly consumed that board. I remember it like it was yesterday five or six years ago.....#oldie#

My company would to be called, The PROFESSIONAL INSPECTION ENTERPRISE, or PIE for short. (Mmmmmmm Pie.......) My idea, if I recall correctly, was that you would send your slabbed comic to me, for a fee of course. I would inspect the case, issue a grade certificate which I would send to you, confirming the condition. Then I would put the slabbed comic in a special vault where it would never be handled or exposed to light again. (that way the case would remain in it's graded condition) :rolleyes:

Of course everyone said, "but now I can't see it anymore". My reply, "True, but you couldn't read it before, and now you can't see it at all, so what's the big deal, it's the grade that counts." :D

Yeah, I got hammered for that one...or maybe I was just hammered? :confused:

Ah the more things change...:)

[jaydeebee]

And Quato's right - in the retail world, it's much more satisfying to "kill 'em with kindness" then to lose it on a customer :)

I don't know about that, the other methods have their merits as well. :cool:

[Quato]

I haven't spotted the hypocrisy, could you please explain it to me?
You seem to have everything all figured out.

It's hypocrisy to sell someone a CGC 10.0 and then expect them to look at it in a scratched case. Where is the pride in that? The whole purpose is to have a book that looks nice. It doesn't look nice if the case it is in is scratched.

Q

[Red Hook]

I think the title of this thread should be changed to..."I feel threatened by the high grade collector!"

And I happen to think that Calamerica's particular focus is yes, a little insane, but eccentric and actually fun to watch.

And when I talk about saving your hate, I'm talking specifically about hate for fellow comic collectors, whether it's people who collect uber-grade or reader copies. Open up a newspaper, there are plenty of real things to hate out there in the real world.

If you can't stand someone's personality, that's different than hating them simply because of what they collect.

Are there plenty of collectors who expect to be respected somehow because of comic books they have purchased?

Yeah.

So what? It can be annoying, but so what?

And Stu...your issues with Cal are 100% personality driven. I don't believe for a second you dislike him simply because of what he collects.

Red

[Quato]

That's funny. One of the first threads I ever posted on the eBay board was a tongue-in-cheek offer to professionally grade CGC cases. This was during the time of the big CGC uproar which nearly consumed that board. I remember it like it was yesterday five or six years ago.....#oldie#

My company would to be called, The PROFESSIONAL INSPECTION ENTERPRISE, or PIE for short. (Mmmmmmm Pie.......) My idea, if I recall correctly, was that you would send your slabbed comic to me, for a fee of course. I would inspect the case, issue a grade certificate which I would send to you, confirming the condition. Then I would put the slabbed comic in a special vault where it would never be handled or exposed to light again. (that way the case would remain in it's graded condition) :rolleyes:

Of course everyone said, "but now I can't see it anymore". My reply, "True, but you couldn't read it before, and now you can't see it at all, so what's the big deal, it's the grade that counts." :D

Yeah, I got hammered for that one...or maybe I was just hammered? :confused:

Ah the more things change...:)

Nothing in my opinion tops the fortress cases. They came with a felt pouch you could slide them into. They let the book breathe, but were also waterproof. Only Mylar touched the book.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Quato2/mb/assorted/Fortress_brochure_med.jpg

Q

[stupidman]

And Stu...your issues with Cal are 100% personality driven. I don't believe for a second you dislike him simply because of what he collects.

Mmmm, more like 80/20. I think anybody who collects that many copies of one book is a retard, not just Cal.

[Quato]

I think the title of this thread should be changed to..."I feel threatened by the high grade collector!"

And I happen to think that Calamerica's particular focus is yes, a little insane, but eccentric and actually fun to watch.

And when I talk about saving your hate, I'm talking specifically about hate for fellow comic collectors, whether it's people who collect uber-grade or reader copies. Open up a newspaper, there are plenty of real things to hate out there in the real world.

If you can't stand someone's personality, that's different than hating them simply because of what they collect.

Are there plenty of collectors who expect to be respected somehow because of comic books they have purchased?

Yeah.

So what? It can be annoying, but so what?

And Stu...your issues with Cal are 100% personality driven. I don't believe for a second you dislike him simply because of what he collects.

Red

I don't feel the least bit threatened. The hobby is threatened because it takes 98% of the product and sends out a message that they are inferior. It send out a mesaage that only CGC 9.8 or above is collectible. It can take otherwise worthless books and give people impression that they are vauable simply because the printing & handling process is controlled. The cost of maintaining perfection approaches infinity the closer you get.

Here is the graph...
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Quato2/mb/Cost_of_Quality.jpg

High grade collectors are not valuing the books themselves. They are placing value on the printing press process. That drives up the cost of ALL new comics. Distributors are forced to take back returns of product that meets the fit/function/form of it's intention. Whereas most magazines are distributed in shrink wrap and plastic banding, comics have to ship in extra sturdy and more expensive boxes.

Thumbs up (dripping sarcasm) to all the high grade collectors that are too good to accept a book that is meant to be read, not worshipped. To each their own. Don't ever whine that new books are too expensive. I think VF books should be sold at cover price in comic book stores and ALL NM or higher books should be priced at a base price of $100 regardless of what it is. High grade collectors should have to pay for the extra handling, packaging and care needed to maintain their quality standards. Currently we are all having to pay and that's wrong.

The public criticizes the fact that the Military was paying $75 for a hammer. There is a reason the price was so high. The reason is that the military was asking those hammers to meet MIL specs which were very tight. Of course the manufacturers were making a sample hammer to spec and then supplying a part that didn't meet the same tight specs later. They were profiting on the military's ignorance. I think comic distributors should do the same.

Q

[Red Hook]

Mmmm, more like 80/20. I think anybody who collects that many copies of one book is a retard, not just Cal.

If you go 90/10, I'll believe it. #oldie# Deathlok has a ton of copies of Astonishing Tales #25. You never even mention him as being an annoyance....

(I'm not trying to antagonize you, just trying to understand.)

[Red Hook]

I don't feel the least bit threatened. The hobby is threatened because it takes 98% of the product and sends out a message that they are inferior. It send out a mesaage that only CGC 9.8 or above is collectible. It can take otherwise worthless books and give people impression that they are vauable simply because the printing & handling process is controlled. The cost of maintaining perfection approaches infinity the closer you get.

High grade collectors are not valuing the books themselves. They are placing value on the printing press process. That drives up the cost of ALL new comics. Distributors are forced to take back returns of product that meets the fit/function/form of it's intention. Whereas most magazines are distributed in shrink wrap and plastic banding, comics have to ship in extra sturdy and more expensive boxes.

Q

Interesting post. My point is that although, even if true, the high grade collecting contingent is sending out some kind of message... why do you have to listen to it at all? Just ignore it. I think they're probably a vast minority anyway, unless you hang out at the CGC boards constantly.

And the price of everything has gone up. Ink, paper, shipping, creators rates, etc... I don't think you can blame the HG collector solely for that.

I'm not defending the HG collector. I myself am a niche collector who happens to collect SA books. I have some 9.6's, but I love my 5.5's just as much, and my readers too.

I think you may be talking more about moderns. I don't buy many of those.

Red

[stupidman]

Ok, 90/10 it is then!

Deathlok's never bothered me, so I don't go out of my way to bother him. I never posted on the "Show Us Your Hoards" thread on the CGC Board, so I do have some self-control. I wouldn't even have brought it up here, but since you asked, and I know you like Cal :)

[Red Hook]

Well, I'm not dating the guy... I like you too! #woohoo#

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Let's take a minute to appreciate the LULZ.
Quato's story about getting locked in against his will and basically threatening a kidnapping charge is hilarious. And then we have this beautiful punk rokc moment "She was completely horrified and shocked that I really, truly did not care."

and then JDB comes up with this cookie of love
"Of course everyone said, "but now I can't see it anymore". My reply, "True, but you couldn't read it before, and now you can't see it at all, so what's the big deal, it's the grade that counts."

Ohw, that's too good. And I am a victim of his humor, with my most precious books sitting in a safe deposit box AKA place to store expensive shit you don't want to deal with until you HAVE to.

And then there is STU, who is a little too serious to be funny but full of wisdom and sarcasm. Although STU, hippies don't suck, because I'm a hippie kid and I don't suck. So there. Hippie parents spawned punk rock/metal head kids like me, but when I talk to newbie wannabee punks who say that they hate the Beatles and say they have no "edge" I just think about how much "edge" there is in finding yourself stuck in a genre where rebellion is delineated by a strict list of what is acceptable created by Corporate media. I'ts like any type of progression, you can't have the bad without the good finding a way to surpass it. And then the bad comes again.

I think that the truly wise person finds a way to judge a thing as positive or negative according to the total effect on humanity. To surpass temporal judgment is to place yourself in history and not in your time on this planet.

And with all of this talk here's my thought on HIGH GRADE, the comics I see going for the most $ are super high grade (above guide, so we could say "speculative") and so, as a seller and buyer, I am affected by that.

There are some books that I feel I should be able to pick up at high grade cheap now because they are not appreciated, like any New Mutants issue, or Dazzler or Books of Magic, and why shouldn't I have a 9.8 if I can get it cheap? Well the reason is that they won't be worth more even if I am picking them up cheap now. So where do I look next? Towards collecting books that are desirable and high grade, like X-MEN books. Why would I not want high grade examples of books I've read, have reprints to read and only keep as Worship?

I'm just confused now because a person who lives in BFE as far as comics go, I buy on eBay now and see all sorts of books that I could have never had before going on eBay for less than 1//4 of guide in Vg condition and see that the price keeps going down. Why pay for books at more than cover, or reasonable yard sale prices, and know that I can't read them and sell them for the same price, or more which is the whole idea behind flipping and collecting?

My whole strategy of collecting is threatened by the High Grade (money wise) collectors and my hate is only a fear of crossing a threshold.

[Mac Man]

High grade collectors are not valuing the books themselves. They are placing value on the printing press process. That drives up the cost of ALL new comics. Distributors are forced to take back returns of product that meets the fit/function/form of it's intention. Whereas most magazines are distributed in shrink wrap and plastic banding, comics have to ship in extra sturdy and more expensive boxes... High grade collectors should have to pay for the extra handling, packaging and care needed to maintain their quality standards. Currently we are all having to pay and that's wrong.

Q

I've hacked up your quote a bit, but I don't believe I'm taking it out of context. I'm also new here, so not trying to stir the pot. I think it's an interesting point you raise, and would be even more interesting to see if these were actually the case. I'm sure it's not the sole reason, as Red Hook mentioned, but one worth considering all the same.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is much to be done about it, is there? If individuals have the disposable cash and are looking for something to do with it, it's difficult to really place a restriction on how they do so--even if it does pose the possibility for increasing costs for lower grade/raw collectors.

[Sgt Major Secrets]

I don't feel the least bit threatened. The hobby is threatened because it takes 98% of the product and sends out a message that they are inferior.

Where exactly is this message being sent out??? I've been to numerous conventions over the years, posted on a few comic message boards and have had countless conversations with comic fans in person and never, not once, have I heard someone say that they hated a comic because it was a 9.6. Never have I heard someone say they hated JMS because everytime they went to buy a copy of his Amazing Spider-Man they couldn't find a 9.9 copy.

I hear plenty of conversation about great stories, great artists, lousy stories, lousy artists and money-grubbing comic companies, but the number of times I've heard people talk about the quality control of the printing process is nill.

Then again, I tend to hang out with people who view comics as an art form and not as an investment to pay for their retirement years. YMMV.


High grade collectors are not valuing the books themselves.

Really? By persuing those high grade copies and pay the prices they pay for them they have NO input to the value process? Come on.


Distributors are forced to take back returns of product that meets the fit/function/form of it's intention.

Except for the 70-80% of comics that are distrubted to comic shops on a non-returnable basis.

[stupidman]

Well, I'm not dating the guy... I like you too! #woohoo#

LOL! Cool, Brad. You know I've told you before, but you're definitely in the Top 5 posters ever on the CGC Board. Sorry you got banned.

Silly - you're right, hippies don't completely suck, I was being bombastic. They do have the best weed. And hippie chicks are easy #love# (Plus Red's quote wasn't even a hippie song, I think it's Elvis Costello). But I still hate Petruli...

[arexcrooke]

I haven't spotted the hypocrisy, could you please explain it to me?
You seem to have everything all figured out.
Exactly Rich.
If this guy thinks scratched cases are considered a flaw on a comic book, then i dont know if there is intelligent converstation possible.

[arexcrooke]

I don't feel the least bit threatened. The hobby is threatened because it takes 98% of the product and sends out a message that they are inferior. It send out a mesaage that only CGC 9.8 or above is collectible. It can take otherwise worthless books and give people impression that they are vauable simply because the printing & handling process is controlled. The cost of maintaining perfection approaches infinity the closer you get.

Well, something must be the issue to cause you to have your panties in a bunch like they are.
Btw, you keep using the pronoun "it" and attach no noun to it. What exactly is "it" you are referring to? Is this like the ubiquitous "them"?




High grade collectors are not valuing the books themselves. Um, then who is? I believe I set the price I am willing to pay for a book. If someone else values it higher, then I dont buy it. Unless the purchase price is never met, then the book doesnt sell and the book is therefore priced too high. The only thing that can determine price is the people who buy that good. You know, basic economic principles and all that.They are placing value on the printing press process. No. I am placing value on the condition (and preservation for some like Beyonder says) that the book is in when I look at it. Does the printing press process have some roll, absolutely. Some books are notorious for misalignment (Bats 251) or printers creases, or bindery tears (GS/52 pagers). But in the end, i am buying a book on condition. That drives up the cost of ALL new comics. Distributors are forced to take back returns of product that meets the fit/function/form of it's intention. Whereas most magazines are distributed in shrink wrap and plastic banding, comics have to ship in extra sturdy and more expensive boxes. Cost of doing business.

Thumbs up (dripping sarcasm) to all the high grade collectors that are too good to accept a book btw, why should I have to accept something that is less than what I want to purchase? Would you accept a car that only has one door? Or how about a car that only comes equipped with an 8-track player? The car isnt supposed to be worshipped right? And the 8-track plays music just fine. that is meant to be read, not worshipped.Are you really so insecure and blind that you think that I dont read my VF/NM books? Can you accept that I can fully enjoy my slabbed books by looking at the cover? I just do not get why you feel the need to shit on the way that a group of people collect. To each their own. As long as they agree with you. Don't ever whine that new books are too expensive.Can you figure out whether you are talking about SA/BA/CA or new releases please? I think VF books should be sold at cover price in comic book stores and ALL NM or higher books should be priced at a base price of $100 regardless of what it is.Why? High grade collectors should have to pay for the extra handling, packaging and care needed to maintain their quality standards.We do. Thats why when we buy books, they cost more than the beaters you buy. Currently we are all having to pay and that's wrong. Explain to me how this is wrong? Seriously. Looking at the non-modern market, the prices i pay for VF/NM and up books have little to no effect on your VG books. Different ball-game.

The public criticizes the fact that the Military was paying $75 for a hammer. There is a reason the price was so high. The reason is that the military was asking those hammers to meet MIL specs which were very tight. Of course the manufacturers were making a sample hammer to spec and then supplying a part that didn't meet the same tight specs later. They were profiting on the military's ignorance. I think comic distributors should do the same.


Q
You are an angry, angry man.

[arexcrooke]

And with all of this talk here's my thought on HIGH GRADE, the comics I see going for the most $ are super high grade (above guide, so we could say "speculative") and so, as a seller and buyer, I am affected by that.
Again, how are you affected by HG collectors when you are a LG collector? That is the point I am failing to understand. How is it that a Bats 234 9.2 affects a Bats 234 4.0? It doesnt make sense to me.
Maybe you can explain (or someone else, Brad, Rich, somebody).
There are some books that I feel I should be able to pick up at high grade cheap now because they are not appreciated, like any New Mutants issue, or Dazzler or Books of Magic, and why shouldn't I have a 9.8 if I can get it cheap?Ah, so its the screaming kid in the grocery store concept. I WANNA HAVE THAT IN THAT GRADE BUT FOR ONLY THE PRICE I WANNA PAY FOR IT WHICH IS LESS THAN MARKET VALUE BECAUSE BECAUSE BECAUSE ***stamping feet and flailing fists**** Well the reason is that they won't be worth more even if I am picking them up cheap now.There is a reason for that and it is called collectibility. The demand is far outstripped by the supply So where do I look next? Towards collecting books that are desirable and high grade, like X-MEN books. Why would I not want high grade examples of books I've read, have reprints to read and only keep as Worship? :confused: I cant make heads nor tails of this blabber. Btw, i have a shrine with candles, Rum, voodoo dolls around my two boxes of CGC books. The other 2 boxes of my books sit in the back of the closet only when it is time to kneel at the alter of HG Bookdom.

I'm just confused now Just now? because a person who lives in BFE as far as comics go, I buy on eBay now and see all sorts of books that I could have never had before going on eBay for less than 1//4 of guide in Vg condition and see that the price keeps going down. What is your question here? To get an answer, it would help to know what you are asking your question about. Is it moderns? SA? BA? Why pay for books at more than cover, or reasonable yard sale prices, and know that I can't read them and sell them for the same price, or more which is the whole idea behind flipping and collecting? Hulk head hurt.

My whole strategy of collecting is threatened by the High Grade (money wise) collectors and my hate is only a fear of crossing a threshold.[/quote]
Again, show me how my collecting (and i am a small fish in the HG game) HG books, slabs or not, hurts you and your VG books?

Would it make you feel any better if I told you I bough ***GASP*** 4 beater All American Men at War books tonight? Would you be happy that I bought these books because they are LG?
Or would your head explode because I bought them to flip?

[arexcrooke]

Where exactly is this message being sent out??? I've been to numerous conventions over the years, posted on a few comic message boards and have had countless conversations with comic fans in person and never, not once, have I heard someone say that they hated a comic because it was a 9.6. Never have I heard someone say they hated JMS because everytime they went to buy a copy of his Amazing Spider-Man they couldn't find a 9.9 copy.

I hear plenty of conversation about great stories, great artists, lousy stories, lousy artists and money-grubbing comic companies, but the number of times I've heard people talk about the quality control of the printing process is nill.

Then again, I tend to hang out with people who view comics as an art form and not as an investment to pay for their retirement years. YMMV.



Really? By persuing those high grade copies and pay the prices they pay for them they have NO input to the value process? Come on.



Except for the 70-80% of comics that are distrubted to comic shops on a non-returnable basis.
Excellent points Sgt #woohoo#
People who are using comics to build thier nestegg, well, that might not be the smartest thing to ever do.
I look at my books as sunk cost. I go in with the understanding that there is a good chance I might not ever get my money back on them. And I dont care. I love collecting. even if it is the incorrect way to collect as judged by some narrow minded people.

[arexcrooke]

Interesting post. My point is that although, even if true, the high grade collecting contingent is sending out some kind of message... why do you have to listen to it at all? Just ignore it. I think they're probably a vast minority anyway, unless you hang out at the CGC boards constantly.

And the price of everything has gone up. Ink, paper, shipping, creators rates, etc... I don't think you can blame the HG collector solely for that.

I'm not defending the HG collector. I myself am a niche collector who happens to collect SA books. I have some 9.6's, but I love my 5.5's just as much, and my readers too.

I think you may be talking more about moderns. I don't buy many of those.

Red
And hell Brad, we know that we are in the minority over there.

[DrWatson]

Hey, lets get off the tit of Modern collectors for while as well, eh?

At one point in time they were all Moderns. I have been collecting Moderns since the late 70s early 80s.

[Mr.Digglerstanley1]

Hey, lets get off the tit of Modern collectors for while as well, eh?

At one point in time they were all Moderns. I have been collecting Moderns since the late 70s early 80s.

Good point.

[Quato]

I've hacked up your quote a bit, but I don't believe I'm taking it out of context. I'm also new here, so not trying to stir the pot. I think it's an interesting point you raise, and would be even more interesting to see if these were actually the case. I'm sure it's not the sole reason, as Red Hook mentioned, but one worth considering all the same.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is much to be done about it, is there? If individuals have the disposable cash and are looking for something to do with it, it's difficult to really place a restriction on how they do so--even if it does pose the possibility for increasing costs for lower grade/raw collectors.

I look back to when I was 12 years old collecting stamps. I was going through old letters my mom and dad had. They were telling me about my uncles huge stamp collection. I was acquiring stamps from the 1800's and affixing a little sticky flap to the back and putting them in an album. I was having fun. I was getting involved with the history. My friends and my sisters were doing the same. It was a healthy focus for a kid. As I got more involved, I started meeting the snobs. I'd go to the stamp & coin store at the mall and see these expensive plastic sleeves to slide stamps into. The sleeves cost more than the stamps. I did the math and realized that on my allowance I couldn't collect stamps and buy the supplies the other collectors said I should use. Then the other collectors started telling me that canceled stamps were worthless. They told me real collectors only collect uncanceled stamps. Slowly and surely over time, the repeated scorn and "oh, he's not serious" attitude from my peers took all the fun away. It quit becoming a fun hobby I shared with friends and family. It turned into.... "Oh, you collect? (ha ha, snicker)" Eventually it robbed the fun because snobs had moved beyond the history, the illustrations, the completeness of collecting. They were too busy spending relatively high money on super nice specimens. Within a year I had walked awy from the hobby because nobody took what I enjoyed seriously. What fun is it to collect something when all your peers don't take your approach seriously. It's snobbish. It's rude. It's insulting. It becomes a self fulfilling act that alienates you from normal people and normal attitudes. Don't get me wrong. I am very glad I met people who have this attitude. My occupation now is that of a quality inspector. I'm nitpicking electrical and mechanical parts so that my company's product doesn't fail and the trains your loved ones ride don't malfunction. Hopefully my ability to nitpick allows a train to stop when it's supposed to and perform safely for all the hundreds of thousands of people that ride them.

Regardless, every single day I go to work I know that I am inspecting a part for fit/function/form. All materials have tolerances or allowed deviations. If our products were required to be absolutely perfect, your city would not be able to afford the trains we build. A half million dollar component we sell would cost 10 million dollars. Our product wouldn't be a better product because acceptability standards can be relaxed and still achieve the fit/function/form of what the train is designed to do. We already have some tight specs on our electrical products. We incorporate components no bigger than my hand that cost a thousand dollars a piece. That's our cost. I'm told that the process is so difficult to control that the manufacturer has to make ten before they can get one that meets our electrical requirements. That means everyone down the line is paying for the 9 pieces that were not good enough to do what we need it to do. The manufacturer has to recoup their operating expenses. Comic books shouldn't be that way. Collectors should not be expecting their product to exceed the parameters of what the printing/packaging/handling process can reasonably control. Unfortunately that is exactly what collectors are doing.

If I set a torque wrench for 30lbs and measure it's performance, it's not going to be dead on 30lbs. It'll measure 29.6, 29.8, 30.2. You can however statistically chart it's performance and see what is a normal range for operation. You can statistically determine an upper and lower control limit. You can investigate the root cause of a reading if it's outside the statistical range of the intended results. You can investigate if the torque results start sliding outside of the expected range. This is called Statistical Process Control.

Somebody in the manufacturing & handling process should be determining what the statistical norm is for the condition of comics when they meet the shelf. Top grade should be based upon the what is statistically likely, not what is possible. The old Overstreet grading system unintentionally did that. Pick up a price guide from the 80's and you will see a category called "Pristine Mint". The guide called those conditions very rare and it was not used as the standard by which we measure a comic book's acceptability.

Being a quality inspector, I can find something not perfect on any comic book. I might have to do destructive testing (the sample is destroyed), but I could find something sub par with it. I don't care if I have to measure the radius on the curve of the staple bends, I can find something wrong. Anybody so arrogant to think that their product is perfect is just being an @ss.

I prefer to back away and look at the big picture. What is healthy for the industry. What is healthy for the publisher? What is healthy to encourage an 8 year old kid to pick up comics as a hobby. CGC 10.0 is not it. The focus of this hobby should be the content, NOT the print & distribution process. I've been buying more VG books lately. I've been buying rarities. Charlton Digest, Gag comics & magazines... things like that. By no means do I turn away a nicer looking book, but I collect the contents. As long as the book isn't falling apart, I encourage people to buy the grade they can afford. People need to be enjoying comics just like I enjoyed stamp collecting at age 12. If somebody is ever offended by me mocking their quest for super high grade.... be offended. People mocked me for enjoying my days as a stamp collector. I was robbed of my fun. I'll ridicule any moron paying $1000 for a Spawn #1. You deserve it. As a kid at age 12, I didn't deserve the lack of respect I received.

Rant off. Have a good day.

Q

[Red Hook]

I do not recall any collector of low-grade (reader quality) comics ever being castigated for collecting what they do, on this board or the CGC board. I think the kind of collectors you described within the stamp collecting community exist in any kind of collecting hobby group, from stamps to coins to comics to baseball cards to beanie babies. Condition is always a factor in highgrade collecting.

It just seems to me that it's entirely possible to collect whatever you want, at whatever level you want, without ridicule. I'm still trying to figure out if it's simply the discussion of highgrade collecting that makes you uncomfortable...(I don't see any reason why it should), or whether you've actually been mocked personally for what comics you collect. Again, I don't recall ever seeing an example of that happening on these boards or the CGC boards... in fact I recall several "show me your beater copies" type threads. They have always been enthusiastically received.

Red

[Quato]

To answer a comment above, defective product is credited back to the stores. While comics are sold on a non-returnable basis, that does not relate to damaged product. Books that would get placed on a newsstand and sold in a grocery store to the general public are not deemed acceptable by the average comic book fan. Even if the distributor was not paying for this snooty attitude collectors have, the comic book stores get stuck with spine creased comics because some collectors are wanting comics nicer than 80% of the books that are being put into the boxes at the printer.

As a general rule, I do not respond to dissected point by point rebuttals. This is a common practice used by trolls. Whether anyone is one or not, I'm not going to take the time to format the tags or font colors to reply in that manner. The only exception would be a reply intended for education & information as opposed to debate or posturing one's opinion and/or point of view.

Q

[Quato]

I do not recall any collector of low-grade (reader quality) comics ever being castigated for collecting what they do, on this board or the CGC board. I think the kind of collectors you described within the stamp collecting community exist in any kind of collecting hobby group, from stamps to coins to comics to baseball cards to beanie babies. Condition is always a factor in highgrade collecting.

It just seems to me that it's entirely possible to collect whatever you want, at whatever level you want, without ridicule. I'm still trying to figure out if it's simply the discussion of highgrade collecting that makes you uncomfortable...(I don't see any reason why it should), or whether you've actually been mocked personally for what comics you collect. Again, I don't recall ever seeing an example of that happening on these boards or the CGC boards... in fact I recall several "show me your beater copies" type threads. They have always been enthusiastically received.

Red

Actions speak louder than words. Just as my actions speak louder than words when I walk past dealers with CGC books and don't even look at what they have.

I've seen this attitude many times over on messageboards. A collector enthusiastically posts a scan of a raw book in Fine or VG condition because they are proud to own it. The immediate response is a condescending "I'm holding out for a CGC 9.8" The response from high grade collectors is rarely "Oh wow, great book... good find!" The only time you get that response is when you are truly chatting with readers and fans who care about what's inside.

Honestly... WTF does a slight rounded corner have to do with the quality of a comic book? That junk came over from the sports card industry and was NEVER a part of comics grading until the mid 90's. With all the things that can be wrong on a comic, why do collectors talk about fingerprints which only show up under a black light? I am proudly not a member of the CGC board.

I was proud to hear that after all these years of Keith Contarino catering to high grade collectors, that he's actually buying low grade keys for himself. Keith was one of the first advocates of high grade books that I'd ever met. He was selling Valiant books in mylar when most collectors weren't even using it for their collections. (For those who don't know, Keith was an Overstreet adviser who has written articles on comics.)

Q

[arexcrooke]

Actions speak louder than words. Just as my actions speak louder than words when I walk past dealers with CGC books and don't even look at what they have. Which is your choice and you should be able to choose that style of collectin. Just do not begrudge me and other HG collectors because we do not choose to collect the way you do.
Also, my actions speak louder than my words when I walk past a dealer with $1 comics, or 3 for $1, or long upon long of VG comics.

I've seen this attitude many times over on messageboards. A collector enthusiastically posts a scan of a raw book in Fine or VG condition because they are proud to own it. And should be if it makes them happyThe immediate response is a condescending "I'm holding out for a CGC 9.8"So, if someone posts a Spectre 1 in VG, im going to appreciate it, congratulate them on it, and still hold out for a 9.4 copy of said book. The only condesention you see is the one from inside your own POV. The response from high grade collectors is rarely "Oh wow, great book... good find!" Go check out the This Week in Your Collection thread over on the CGC boards. You will see that this is not the case. Lots of HG books there, sure, but mid grade and low grade get the love too. The only time you get that response is when you are truly chatting with readers and fans who care about what's inside. No. This is where you assume that all HG collectors are not fans and do not care about the books. I care, i enjoy, and I collect in a way that is different than you. Is that so hard to understand? That we both love the hobby, but just persue that love in different ways?

Honestly... WTF does a slight rounded corner have to do with the quality of a comic book?ITS NOT ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE COMIC BOOK! IT is about the CONDITION OF THE BOOK! That junk came over from the sports card industry and was NEVER a part of comics grading until the mid 90's. Utter bollocks. People have been seeking out HG books for a long time. Read your OS where it talks about condition. If you know anything about the Edgar Church collection you know that Chuck got very high multiples for the books in that collection because of their condition. We are talking 2-3x guide for them. With all the things that can be wrong on a comic, why do collectors talk about fingerprints which only show up under a black light?No clue as to what you are talking about there.I do know that surface impressions/dents are graded rather harshly by CGC, but im sure Steve and the rest arent taking off for non-visible finger prints. I am proudly not a member of the CGC board. Which is a shame as there is quite a bit of knowledge runing around that place.

I was proud to hear that after all these years of Keith Contarino catering to high grade collectors, that he's actually buying low grade keys for himself. Keith was one of the first advocates of high grade books that I'd ever met. He was selling Valiant books in mylar when most collectors weren't even using it for their collections. (For those who don't know, Keith was an Overstreet adviser who has written articles on comics.)

Q
You make so many assumptions that it isnt even funny.

[Red Hook]

I've seen this attitude many times over on messageboards. A collector enthusiastically posts a scan of a raw book in Fine or VG condition because they are proud to own it. The immediate response is a condescending "I'm holding out for a CGC 9.8" The response from high grade collectors is rarely "Oh wow, great book... good find!"
Q

As far as these boards and the CGC boards go (check out the thread referenced by Arex), that is simply not true. At all. There has been support for collectors of all conditional levels of material.

I'd ask you to present a couple of specific examples of what you mean. I don't know the Ebay chat boards...maybe things are different there.

Red

[Paratrooper]

boo

[OldGuy]

boo

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

#surrender#

[BlowUpTheMoon]

Good point.

Yes.

[jaydeebee]

boo

That's certainly insightful. Others may have a different opinion, but that doesn't diminish your viewpoint, nor should it.

[Red Hook]

http://www.macartistry.com/corral/spooky.jpg

[Sgt Major Secrets]

As a general rule, I do not respond to dissected point by point rebuttals. This is a common practice used by trolls. Whether anyone is one or not, I'm not going to take the time to format the tags or font colors to reply in that manner. The only exception would be a reply intended for education & information as opposed to debate or posturing one's opinion and/or point of view.

You're calling me a troll because I responded point by point? Jeepers, if I wanted to be insulted I'd go back to the eBay boards and let bnwflix hit me with a hammer a few times.

As for debate vs education, message boards are all about debate. If you can't handle someone disagreeing with you without resorting to name calling, then go hang out with your 13 friends.

<plonk>

[Capitalrecoveryman]

You're calling me a troll because I responded point by point? Jeepers, if I wanted to be insulted I'd go back to the eBay boards and let bnwflix hit me with a hammer a few times.

As for debate vs education, message boards are all about debate. If you can't handle someone disagreeing with you without resorting to name calling, then go hang out with your 13 friends.

<plonk>

I don't think he was referring to your comments, secrets. I think he was referring to the posts that took his quote and dissected it throughout with red font. Quite frankly, I also find that annoying, but then again I'm in between HGH cycles.

Now I need to get back to playing those records backwards with my 13 buddies. :)

[Sgt Major Secrets]

Well, the first part of his post did refer to an earlier post of mine, so...maybe if he'd respond point by point, there wouldn't be so much confusion.

And glad to see someone else remembers the backward masking guy!

[Capitalrecoveryman]

He was my second favorite poster of all time. My favorite is scheduled to reappear August 6th.

[MrBedrock]

Collectors should not be expecting their product to exceed the parameters of what the printing/packaging/handling process can reasonably control. Unfortunately that is exactly what collectors are doing.
Q
I didn't want to quote your whole post, but I think the essence of what you are trying to say is that the demands of high grade collectors are forcing the costs of new comics on the stands today. I think you are over emphasizing the power of the condition conscious collector to dictate anything to publishers. And here is why.
I have four stores. Between those stores I have approximately 2000 subscribers. That does not include walk-in regulars or the occasional shopper. That is 2000 new comic buyers that I or my staff see monthly. Of that group, less than ten are specifically concerned with the handling of their comics pre-purchase. I do try to keep the books nice, but we do not bag and board or wear special gloves or use tongs to move books around. I will say that Diamond has increased the strength of their shipping boxes, but that is to help reduce the instances of boxes being mangled by UPS and thus returned by retailers. But these boxes really are not conducive to keeping a comic in 9.8 or better shape. We frequently get whole shipments with slightly dinged corners. We put them on the shelves and sell them. In the rare case that a customer is looking for a nicer copy we try to facilitate that.
What I am trying to illustrate is that the uber high grade slabbed modern collector is 1) a very small minority of all new comic sales, 2) has absolutely no bearing at all on what publishers decide to print and how they decide to print them and 3) has a miniscule effect on distributor costs of new comics (and that cost is absorbed by retailers).
So feel safe - if you buy new comics, high grade collectors cost you absolutely nothing.

[stupidman]

He was my second favorite poster of all time. My favorite is scheduled to reappear August 6th.

:confused:

[Capitalrecoveryman]

Sorry to keep you in suspense. August 6th is the anniversary of the Hiroshima atomic bomb drop. Don't you remember there was always an annual ebay thread devoted to the "biggest terroristic act" in the history of mankind from kwm?

[arexcrooke]

You're calling me a troll because I responded point by point? Jeepers, if I wanted to be insulted I'd go back to the eBay boards and let bnwflix hit me with a hammer a few times.

As for debate vs education, message boards are all about debate. If you can't handle someone disagreeing with you without resorting to name calling, then go hang out with your 13 friends.

<plonk>
So I guess he was referring to me. Sorry, I havent got the quote function down here as it is a little different than the layout on the CGC boards.

Maybe I have been a little harsh, dunno. Ive tried to give counter arguments for my POV and have received nothing but chirping for the most part. So be it. But if you go back (not you SMS) and want to continue the discussion i would like that.

If going back and reading my posts is too much for you that you wanna ignore the points simply because I tried to address certain questions/points in your own post, then it isnt even worth trying to discuss things with you.

[stupidman]

Sorry to keep you in suspense. August 6th is the anniversary of the Hiroshima atomic bomb drop. Don't you remember there was always an annual ebay thread devoted to the "biggest terroristic act" in the history of mankind from kwm?

LOL, got it now. Yeah, good ol' KWM! I wonder how Steve/Showcase-4's lawsuit against him ended up? I didn't know who to root for...

[Mac Man]

I'm a low grade collector and I've found an awful lot of uber high grade collectors over on the CGC boards to be extremely encouraging, informative, and great to talk books with despite the vast grade difference in our books.

And Red Hook, I still remember you making some wonderfully obscure Joyce reference over on the CGC Boards. Anyone who knows Joyce well enough to wield him publicly has my respect!-) Always enjoyed your posts and sorry you got banned!

-Mac

[Red Hook]

Thanks for the kind words, MacMan. I enjoyed my time on the CGC boards. Many good people there. With 21k posts under my belt, I can't say I left much unsaid! :)

It's nice to have a fresh start here, though.


As we count down to June 16, I'll start throwing out the Joyce references. Did I ever mention that I was first introduced to JJ by Frank McCourt? (author of Angela's Ashes) who taught me senior english in high school? That would have been spring of 1972.

#oldie#

[alecholland]

Hate is definitely a pretty strong word SS. I can only speak from personal experience, but I've never felt like the high grade collectors I've encountered were snobs or looked down on my mid-grade collection. I'd have to agree with Mac Man on that point. I'm not saying there aren't collectors that look down with disdain on my lowly books, I've just never personally encountered that kind of discrimination (at least not knowingly).

I think it is just a case of different strokes. I also think it just boils down to personality. Some people are really picky - they want books that look as close to brand new as possible. I'm definitely a little bit that way, although not to the point of wanting my entire collection to be 9.4 or better. However, I do like the books I buy to have the look and feel of how I remember my collection looking as a kid. When I was young, I read my comics a couple times and then stored them fairly carefully so they would stay as nice as possible. When I sold my collection in the early 90's, I'd say most of my books were in the F/FV range, so that's pretty much what I shoot for when buying books now. If a comic is $6 in VG and $12 or $18 in F - VF, I always opt for the nicer copy if I can afford it. It's just a matter of personal preference. However, I would never spend $180 for the same book slabbed in 9.6 condition, but again that's just me.

With that said, I have seen a few people on other boards (they may be on this one too) that I liken to the guy that buys a Porsche, or Corvette, or some other pricey car and then drives it around with the price sticker on it for months. The amount of money they spent on the object they acquired seems to be more important than the object itself. Those folks do tend to get under my skin, but I believe it to be more of a cry for attention than anything and just avoid commenting in their threads.

[arexcrooke]

I just cant seem to understand why people diss on what others collect. I have never ever seen a HG collector make a post/thread that talks about how he hates people who collect LG books. Never. And I have been on CPG.com, CGC, STL, and here. And made a bunch of posts and read a bunch of threads. And I have never seen it happen any way other than HG collectors suck and are a ruination of the hobby.

So what is it with the LG (and lets be honest, it is only a very small portion of people who do this) collector that causes them so much angst and hate towards us evil HG collectors?

I dont have much of an idea tbh, but maybe we can turn this thread around. my ideas:
1-Envy-they cant afford HG books so they are jealous over those who can.
I dont buy this too much as I think it is a cop-out. Something just doesnt ring right about this. Ive seen the volume that some of the LG collectors buy in and in truth, they probably spend as much as most HG collectors do, just in a different way.
2-Resentment-They see the prices that the HG books go for and just resent the fact that something that they love can be so valuable and it automatically turns into money hungry speculators who have no care for the hobby just trying to make a killing and kill the hobby in the meantime
3-Greed- They resent that HG books are easily resold for usually at worst break even or even worse small-large profit. They resent that their collection will be very tough to sell and they wont be able to get their money back without either large amounts of work (and thus high expenses) or taking a bulk deal and getting 20&#37; of OS.
4-Childish mentality- These are the folks who cant understand why anyone would choose to do something other than what they think is the best. Limited social skills, and an inability to interact with others without seeming demeaning or just plain weird. I think this might have something to do with it. Narrow minded might be a better term. This could also apply to the ubiquitous "they" that deride LG buyers of what they buy and collect. So this is a two way street.

So, anybody want to discuss this?

[DrWatson]

I hate people who collect high, low grade books. They drive the price up on the really sweet high grade stuff. Oh, and Canadian tax collectors, too.

[arexcrooke]

I hate people who collect high, low grade books. They drive the price up on the really sweet high grade stuff. Oh, and Canadian tax collectors, too.
:roll:

[comicworkbench]

Thanks for the kind words, MacMan. I enjoyed my time on the CGC boards. Many good people there. With 21k posts under my belt, I can't say I left much unsaid! :)

It's nice to have a fresh start here, though.


As we count down to June 16, I'll start throwing out the Joyce references. Did I ever mention that I was first introduced to JJ by Frank McCourt? (author of Angela's Ashes) who taught me senior english in high school? That would have been spring of 1972.

#oldie#

Impressive knowing McCourt! Loved his book Teacher Man, haven't got into the others. My limited JJ experiece was in university, Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

I just can't get to those yet. I do, however have a self made shirt with Joyce's and Dylan's last words on the front and the back. I may not have read their books but I liked their last words (or supposed last words.)

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Ease up on the insults AREX. I don't really hate anyone and your whole thing about everyone should collect how they want is of course true.

If you read my posts you will see that I said I know two people that buy comics like that.

[arexcrooke]

Ok, ill ease up and you try not to jump to anymore conclusions without at least some shred of evidence.
You did it in the are CGC threads worth reading too.

Ok, two people. so, two people are going to tarnish an entire type of collector?

No worries though. As I said earlier, its one of my biggest peeves when someone knocks the way someone else collects.

[kwm: The one and only VoR]

Stu, to respond to your query re: Steve Meyer & myself, there was no lawsuit.

While I was briefly concerned he might be so out of touch with reality that he might attempt something as absurd as legally challenging my fully provable allegations, it appears that he realized how dangerous and self-destructive such an action would prove to be.

Basically, you cannot successfully sue for defamation when the statements made are true.

Stu, I understand that you don't like me, but I still wanted to belatedly thank you for your superb analysis of Meyer and his multiple suspended accounts over on the eBay Discussion Boards last year.

You did more to expose Meyer's conduct in 30 minutes than Mark Zaid did in 30 days of "thorough investigation" on behalf of the NOD.

For the rest of you who continue to harbor resentment towards me for the concerns I've expressed about the dangers of racism in America (including the very real concerns that I & other progressives have regarding Islamophobia) I remain both puzzled and saddened.

Shalom & Salaam,

kwm

[The Charlton Guy]

Hi KWM! #hello#

[kwm: The one and only VoR]

Hi, CG!

Sorry to drag this out here, but I felt it was important to respond to Stu's question. (The matter can drop if it isn't further irritated or explored, I'm thinking...)

CG - you da man!

[The Charlton Guy]

Hi, CG!

Sorry to drag this out here, but I felt it was important to respond to Stu's question. (The matter can drop if it isn't further irritated or explored, I'm thinking...)

CG - you da man!

You can drag out just about anything you want to here, you know that. :lol: (Co. TwitchyLips Productions, 2008)

There's a long-too-latent and too-short Thread in the "Restoration and Disclosure" Area on the Eastern File Copies that could use some input.

And in general, the "Resoration and Disclosure Area is better suited for threads or discussions like this. I may be moving a couple of these threads (including this one) over there soon.

Good to hear from you again!

Best regards,

C.G.

[malaprop]

We all know that HG collectors are islamophobes.

[kwm: The one and only VoR]

You funny, Malaprop!

Ooo - the ECP FCs, CG? (Lemme at that thread...)

:)

[stupidman]

Stu, to respond to your query re: Steve Meyer & myself, there was no lawsuit.

While I was briefly concerned he might be so out of touch with reality that he might attempt something as absurd as legally challenging my fully provable allegations, it appears that he realized how dangerous and self-destructive such an action would prove to be.

Basically, you cannot successfully sue for defamation when the statements made are true.

I figured as much. Like I said, I didn't know who to root for, LOL!


Stu, I understand that you don't like me, but I still wanted to belatedly thank you for your superb analysis of Meyer and his multiple suspended accounts over on the eBay Discussion Boards last year.

You did more to expose Meyer's conduct in 30 minutes than Mark Zaid did in 30 days of "thorough investigation" on behalf of the NOD.

The funniest part was when he changed one of the IDs to something like "rtkjiudj1jry2hyu5lllaslpqwldld" and thought that would "erase" the previous ID. The seller "bluechip" made that same naive mistake recently with his Action # 1 "scam"/shill bidding auction. Side note: I had nothing to do with Showcase-4 getting kicked out of NOD.
Not sure who the Crime Dawg was on that one...

[Hoss]

Hi kwm! It's been a while!

--

[kwm: The one and only VoR]

Stu - yes! (Dam - you like Colombo!) That fumbling ID change was fairly obvious & absurd. He actually changed it twice ("blue" something was the first attempt to cover his tracks) & privatized it (nuttin' wrong with that - usually...), but it can all be accessed via subpeona if needed for future legal action, including a court order compelling the auction site to remove him.

I think the cover-up was a result of your outing him, so good job! (The auction site, of course, will do nothing - he makes too much money for them, not unlike Dupcak. It's funny, though: the T & S people openly acknowledged that he had multiple permanently suspended accounts, but were over-ruled by their $upervisor$, who undid his current ID's suspension within a few days of shutting him down a 4th time.)

Hoss - you ol' Hoss! (Sorry to be dragging this dead horse around, but I had to give overdue props to Stu!)

I don't know how you & CG & the lads keep your heads in the maelstrom we crazy comic collector/posters create, but other than the fab StL boards, this is the place to be!

& I'll be good - I promise. :)

[tablism]

I look back to when I was 12 years old collecting stamps. I was going through old letters my mom and dad had. They were telling me about my uncles huge stamp collection. I was acquiring stamps from the 1800's and affixing a little sticky flap to the back and putting them in an album. I was having fun. I was getting involved with the history. My friends and my sisters were doing the same. It was a healthy focus for a kid. As I got more involved, I started meeting the snobs. I'd go to the stamp & coin store at the mall and see these expensive plastic sleeves to slide stamps into. The sleeves cost more than the stamps. I did the math and realized that on my allowance I couldn't collect stamps and buy the supplies the other collectors said I should use. Then the other collectors started telling me that canceled stamps were worthless. They told me real collectors only collect uncanceled stamps. Slowly and surely over time, the repeated scorn and "oh, he's not serious" attitude from my peers took all the fun away. It quit becoming a fun hobby I shared with friends and family. It turned into.... "Oh, you collect? (ha ha, snicker)" Eventually it robbed the fun because snobs had moved beyond the history, the illustrations, the completeness of collecting. They were too busy spending relatively high money on super nice specimens. Within a year I had walked awy from the hobby because nobody took what I enjoyed seriously. What fun is it to collect something when all your peers don't take your approach seriously. It's snobbish. It's rude. It's insulting. It becomes a self fulfilling act that alienates you from normal people and normal attitudes. Don't get me wrong. I am very glad I met people who have this attitude. My occupation now is that of a quality inspector. I'm nitpicking electrical and mechanical parts so that my company's product doesn't fail and the trains your loved ones ride don't malfunction. Hopefully my ability to nitpick allows a train to stop when it's supposed to and perform safely for all the hundreds of thousands of people that ride them.

Regardless, every single day I go to work I know that I am inspecting a part for fit/function/form. All materials have tolerances or allowed deviations. If our products were required to be absolutely perfect, your city would not be able to afford the trains we build. A half million dollar component we sell would cost 10 million dollars. Our product wouldn't be a better product because acceptability standards can be relaxed and still achieve the fit/function/form of what the train is designed to do. We already have some tight specs on our electrical products. We incorporate components no bigger than my hand that cost a thousand dollars a piece. That's our cost. I'm told that the process is so difficult to control that the manufacturer has to make ten before they can get one that meets our electrical requirements. That means everyone down the line is paying for the 9 pieces that were not good enough to do what we need it to do. The manufacturer has to recoup their operating expenses. Comic books shouldn't be that way. Collectors should not be expecting their product to exceed the parameters of what the printing/packaging/handling process can reasonably control. Unfortunately that is exactly what collectors are doing.

If I set a torque wrench for 30lbs and measure it's performance, it's not going to be dead on 30lbs. It'll measure 29.6, 29.8, 30.2. You can however statistically chart it's performance and see what is a normal range for operation. You can statistically determine an upper and lower control limit. You can investigate the root cause of a reading if it's outside the statistical range of the intended results. You can investigate if the torque results start sliding outside of the expected range. This is called Statistical Process Control.

Somebody in the manufacturing & handling process should be determining what the statistical norm is for the condition of comics when they meet the shelf. Top grade should be based upon the what is statistically likely, not what is possible. The old Overstreet grading system unintentionally did that. Pick up a price guide from the 80's and you will see a category called "Pristine Mint". The guide called those conditions very rare and it was not used as the standard by which we measure a comic book's acceptability.

Being a quality inspector, I can find something not perfect on any comic book. I might have to do destructive testing (the sample is destroyed), but I could find something sub par with it. I don't care if I have to measure the radius on the curve of the staple bends, I can find something wrong. Anybody so arrogant to think that their product is perfect is just being an @ss.

I prefer to back away and look at the big picture. What is healthy for the industry. What is healthy for the publisher? What is healthy to encourage an 8 year old kid to pick up comics as a hobby. CGC 10.0 is not it. The focus of this hobby should be the content, NOT the print & distribution process. I've been buying more VG books lately. I've been buying rarities. Charlton Digest, Gag comics & magazines... things like that. By no means do I turn away a nicer looking book, but I collect the contents. As long as the book isn't falling apart, I encourage people to buy the grade they can afford. People need to be enjoying comics just like I enjoyed stamp collecting at age 12. If somebody is ever offended by me mocking their quest for super high grade.... be offended. People mocked me for enjoying my days as a stamp collector. I was robbed of my fun. I'll ridicule any moron paying $1000 for a Spawn #1. You deserve it. As a kid at age 12, I didn't deserve the lack of respect I received.

Rant off. Have a good day.

Q


You are my f'ing hero. no lie.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

^^Word, I couldn't have said it better myself, I agreed full heartedly and I loved the story. Funny, I collected stamps and coins at first too. This part is pure magic

"What is healthy to encourage an 8 year old kid to pick up comics as a hobby. CGC 10.0 is not it. The focus of this hobby should be the content, NOT the print & distribution process. I've been buying more VG books lately. I've been buying rarities. Charlton Digest, Gag comics & magazines... things like that. By no means do I turn away a nicer looking book, but I collect the contents. As long as the book isn't falling apart, I encourage people to buy the grade they can afford. People need to be enjoying comics just like I enjoyed stamp collecting at age 12. If somebody is ever offended by me mocking their quest for super high grade.... be offended. People mocked me for enjoying my days as a stamp collector. I was robbed of my fun. I'll ridicule any moron paying $1000 for a Spawn #1. You deserve it. As a kid at age 12, I didn't deserve the lack of respect I received."

Poetry.

Arex, you said
"Ok, ill ease up and you try not to jump to anymore conclusions without at least some shred of evidence. You did it in the are CGC threads worth reading too. Ok, two people. so, two people are going to tarnish an entire type of collector? No worries though. As I said earlier, its one of my biggest peeves when someone knocks the way someone else collects."

Evidence as far as what? It's all opinion. You come off as self righteous and arrogant, and I don't appreciate you starting threads by calling me names. I think we should avoid each other so stop trolling my threads. Your pet peeve is that I knocked the way YOU collect, which I think is lame and all about the money and showing off your new shiny status symbol and frankly you don't have the experience to convince me it's not so. Your idea of what a comics worth is attached to an arbitrary value system that used to be based on how precious the book was because of it's content and is now (by people like you) being changed to how the book was made and how little it was read or handled. That kinda makes me sick.

You seem to be a real CGC fan (employee maybe) and I bet you have your mind firmly made up about all sorts of comic issues which makes me laugh. In twenty years when everything you believe in has changed you'll be yelling and screaming while I am only discussing.

I like how you state that you have a pet peeve about people insulting how others collect when what you really mean is that your getting picked on a lot and want to sound all P.C. and like your defending a poor mistreated segment of the comic collector population. Nobody in the hobby ever disrespects a person for buying books because they want to read them, people who collect like you on the other hand.....

Collect how you want, maybe I'll even change my mind about you, but not if you keep attacking me personally.

[arexcrooke]

You want to back up and reread what you just posted?The one that, again, is jumping to conclusions, making baseless attacks, and generally making an arse of himself is you.
If I come of as self righteous, then thats your deal. All I ever did was defend a possition that was opposite of yours. Remember, YOU were the one who started the "I HATE HG COLLECTORS" thread. Not me. You were the one who said we were the ruination of the hobby, not me. I simply tried to give you my reasons as to why that isnt so.
So, again, you tell me how HG collectors collect makes you sick. You call the way I collect lame. So, im supposed to let you do that without making my points? Nah, not today, tomorrow.
I am a CGC fan. Im also a raw fan, a trade fan, an artist fan. In other words, i love the entire medium that is comics. How is that different from you? Other than the particular style that we pursue this hobby?
CGC employee? Look bro, I dont work for them. And believe it or not, i can like the product and not be employed by them. Just like people can enjy McDonalds and not work there. Again, you jump to conclusions with no shred of evidence.
Troll? SS, if I were to start trolling you, you would know it.
So, now my lack of "years" in the hobby and what you think i might think makes you laugh? If you would get your head out of your arse, and stop sticking your foot in your mouth all the time, you might just be able to see that your multiple years in the hobby and your knowledge really isnt that much more than mine. Hell, it might be, but just because ive only been doing this 5 or so years doesnt mean I dont know what i am talking about. Doesnt mean I know everything either, as I dont and would never play that I do.
Im getting picked on? Nope, dont see it. A mistreated section of the hobby? lol
Again, the jab with "people who collect like you..." I collect what I like, read what I like, and enjoy what I like. I can do it without the condesention of you or anyone else.
I have never banged on you for buying rags, because that is what you enjoy.
But whatever, you behavior has been no better than mine in "debate".
But if you want to get an idea as to how accepting this hobby is, grow up, get outta mommy's basement, open your mind to ideas different than yours, go to a con or two and see what else is going on besides what is in your beady littl mind.
Arex

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Although I wont delete the following If you choose to read this please note that it was written when I was angry and I regret much of what was said. I have little experience with posting on message boards and have never been personally attacked before. I responded poorly and I regret it.


Man, if you can't see that you started this your blind. Here I'll quote you.
"Again, you talk out of both sides of your mouth. In one post you are saying that people need to collect how they like, then you come and make this assinine post about how collecting books you cant/dont read is wrong? Dude, grow up a little and try and understand that your worldview is not the be all end all."
You say I'm assinine (spelled it wrong too) and tell me to grow up. Those are insults.

"How many people do you know that buy a book/s dont read them (ill ignore that you can enjoy a book without reading it, but that might be too much for you to comprehend) and only buy them for investment purposes? How many? Right, im sure you can name multiple people who do this."
You insinuate that I am too dull to be able to comprehend your lofty viewpoint and then call me a liar by challenging me to prove a statement that I had already given examples of.

"So why should it piss you off that I wont buy beaters?"
I don't take this as a personal insult, but an insult to all comic books.

"Also, can you make any more assumptions?Do you have cognative abilities beyond stunted rationale such as "me collect good, you collect bad"
Do I even need to point out the attitude your throwing here? And in your hurry, probably due to anger, you spelled cognitive wrong.

"This is my first post here, and Ill pop in from time to time, but god knows I hope most posters are a little more open minded than what Ive read in this first post."
Your not open minded just because you feel that your on the defense and I'm on the offense. Playing the mistreated does not make you open minded. The attitude you have towards comics is an attack. It says that comics are only worth owning in HG and that all other comics are "beaters" to be ignored. People like you are changing the hobby because the future generations will learn that comic collecting is all about status due to value placed on them by HG collectors. Perhaps that is something the hobby needs to go through.

"Again, how are you affected by HG collectors when you are a LG collector? That is the point I am failing to understand. How is it that a Bats 234 9.2 affects a Bats 234 4.0? It doesnt make sense to me.
Maybe you can explain (or someone else, Brad, Rich, somebody)."
Most comic collectors of the past, people with some experience and years in the hobby, didn't consider themselves to be exclusively HG collectors but we did collect them. Not many would say they are LG collectors. You just see it as black and white. Where is that person who said I was young now? The new trend towards more and more HG collectors is a strange thing and effects the whole hobby.

"I cant make heads nor tails of this blabber. Btw, i have a shrine with candles, Rum, voodoo dolls around my two boxes of CGC books. The other 2 boxes of my books sit in the back of the closet only when it is time to kneel at the alter of HG Bookdom. "
You say my words are "blabber" and then go on some weird tangent.

"Would it make you feel any better if I told you I bough ***GASP*** 4 beater All American Men at War books tonight? Would you be happy that I bought these books because they are LG?
Or would your head explode because I bought them to flip?"
This one really shows your constant use of sarcasm and rudeness.

And as far as your last post it is all sarcasm, inuendo and rudeness.
"The one that, again, is jumping to conclusions, making baseless attacks, and generally making an arse of himself is you."
Those are all lies I have not jumped to any conclusions, I am stating opinion. Baseless attacks? I have a basis for my opinions and have stated it. An arse of myself? Right back at ya.

"If I come of as self righteous, then thats your deal. All I ever did was defend a possition that was opposite of yours. Remember, YOU were the one who started the "I HATE HG COLLECTORS" thread. Not me. You were the one who said we were the ruination of the hobby, not me. I simply tried to give you my reasons as to why that isnt so.
So, again, you tell me how HG collectors collect makes you sick. You call the way I collect lame. So, im supposed to let you do that without making my points? Nah, not today, tomorrow."
I don't know what your trying to communicate much of the time because you use angry young guy trite sayings such as "that's your deal?" Of course it is my deal (opinion) that is why I stated it and Nah, not today, not tomorrow. Your speech reminds me of the one liners Schwarzenegger's says as he's snapping someone's neck. That is one reason I call you arrogant.

"I am a CGC fan. Im also a raw fan, a trade fan, an artist fan. In other words, i love the entire medium that is comics. How is that different from you? Other than the particular style that we pursue this hobby?"
Perhaps that is so and if you had been more careful with your wording (like not starting a thread calling me stoopidshit) then that is where this would have ended. Now however, I feel personally insulted and attacked and need to defend and attack back.

"CGC employee? Look bro, I dont work for them. And believe it or not, i can like the product and not be employed by them. Just like people can enjy McDonalds and not work there. Again, you jump to conclusions with no shred of evidence"
You should learn what the difference between an inquisitive innuendo and a conclussion are. Another example of your young angry guy mentality. You want me to draw conclusions & build defenses around them so that you have something to bang your head against. "Hulk head hurt" yeah I bet. And by the way, your no Hulk.

"Troll? SS, if I were to start trolling you, you would know it."
Is this a threat? Or just a statement that you are an experienced troll. Anyone who even hints at threatening trolling should be banned from this board immediately. Where's RED HOOK now? And anyone who even hints at being a good troll, therefor enjoying harassing people, has anger management issues.

"If you would get your head out of your arse, and stop sticking your foot in your mouth all the time, you might just be able to see that your multiple years in the hobby and your knowledge really isnt that much more than mine."
Wrong, your a pup.

"I have never banged on you for buying rags, because that is what you enjoy."
Uhmmm, do I need to point out the irony in this statement?

"But whatever, you behavior has been no better than mine in "debate"."
Perhaps you should read all the instances of rudeness and name calling in the above and that's just from this thread. The thread you began is much worse.

"Im getting picked on? Nope, dont see it. A mistreated section of the hobby? lol Again, the jab with "people who collect like you..." I collect what I like, read what I like, and enjoy what I like. I can do it without the condesention of you or anyone else."
If you didn't feel picked on then exactly what was your reason for attacking me personally? Again with the PC B.S. defense. You are not a man on a lonely no place island, your a man who has been influenced by the value of the books more than the books themselves.

"But if you want to get an idea as to how accepting this hobby is, grow up, get outta mommy's basement, open your mind to ideas different than yours, go to a con or two and see what else is going on besides what is in your beady littl mind."
The Mommy's basement joke, ohw that's a classic. I am sure that you were living on mommies tit longer than I pup. As for the rest of the insulting remarks. My mind is big and I don't know what your trying to infer by using the word beady, but please slow down a bit, edit your-self and learn how to spell. I have an open mind, I just don't like YOU.

To end this I will state some opinions I feel may be true about you. Fell free to enlighten me on whether they are right or wrong.

1. You did not collect or read comics as a child or even a teenager.

2. Your first comic experience had something to do with "investment".

3. If comics were not valuable, you would never have joined the hobby.

4. You look down on people who do not have as much money or status as you perceive yourself to have.

Perhaps I'm wrong.
You say you read the comics. I would love to hear what you read lately?

[Capitalrecoveryman]

I'll speak up for arex. We had a good discussion on Elseworlds yesterday before I took my kids swimming.

[Red Hook]

Where's RED HOOK now?

Right here. Please take the next two days to calm down and get yourself under control. Good time to catch up on your reading.

Red Hook

[Paratrooper]

No offense to anyone, but I like to feel comics with some reader wear and even/especially ink on the coupons. Doesn't it make you excited when you find a book with some writing or particular wear? Don't you feel like your holding someone elses treasure? I'm seriously thinking about finding a way to mark my books and send them out again. I know I'll never be a pedigree, but why not mark my books?

Me too! 9.0 pedigree's for me! 9.2's+ are for those damn speculators!

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/vaughnwarren54/FightComics19CGC9-1.jpg
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/vaughnwarren54/FightComics19CGC9-1.jpg

[arexcrooke]

To end this I will state two opinions I feel may be true about you. Fell free to enlighten me on whether they are right or wrong.

1. You did not collect or read comics as a child or even a teenager.

2. Your first comic experience had something to do with "investment".

3. If comics were not valuable, you would never have joined the hobby.

4. You look down on people who do not have as much money or status as you perceive yourself to have.

Perhaps I'm wrong.
You say you read the comics. I would love to hear what you read lately?
Ill skip over all the other stuff as it is becoming a merry-go-round and serving no purpose. However, i will answer the following, so once you get off your vacation, you can respond.
1-I tried like hell to buy and read comics. However, when you are in the 6/7/8th grade, and your Mom hates them, that makes things a little difficult. My Mom would buy me anything to read: History, sports (esp baseball, i would sit and look and read about baseball for hours at a time) war, biographies etc. She just would not buy comics for me. Even to this day she doesnt like or understand them. However, she doesnt say much when anymore when I sold an Avengers 1 4.5 to pay for some needed work on her house.
2-Wrong, again. I can still remember vividly sitting on my friends stoop as he brings out X-Factor 1-4 that he had just bought from Heroes Aren't Hard to Find in Charlotte and being amazed and awed by them. I can remember reading, very carefully, X-Men 67 which reprints X-Men 12/13 and just becoming immersed in the book. I remember picking up a FF 212 or so (Sphinx cover) that was a rat bag with tape and missing pieces and such and reading it and wishing I could get the next issue to finish the story. So no, investment has nothing to do with my love of the hobby.
3-Again, wrong and shows your anti-HG bias. My most valuable comics are a Avngers 93 F/VF and a FF 91 F+ that I bought with money i earned helping my friends mom and dad clean up their house. They cut me a check and i immediatly ran to the shop in my hometown and bought those two issues. They are irreplacable for me as they take me back to a time when i used what little money I had to buy comics.
I actually got back into comics because I did get tired of flipping baseball cards. even though i was successfull most of the time, it got to be boring and tedious. I lost enjoyment because it was all about $$$.
If my collection wound up being worthless tomorrow, it wouldnt bother me too much. I collect because I enjoy. I collect HG because I enjoy them much more than VF's or VG's.
4-This is the most wrong of any assumption you have made about me and I feel as though defending myself i boast about things you dont believe anyway but here it goes.
No, i dont look down on anyone for what they collect, how they collect, or what they like. I never have because, as you might have noticed, I dont look down on what others collect and i dont want others doing the same to me. Sure, you will say my comments about beaters and such are the exact thing I say i dont do, but that was done in part to make a parallel to what you said about hating HG and it being the end of the hobby. If someone is enjoying how the interact with the hobby, then that is all i need to know.
I dont have enough time to worry about what others are collecting or how much they are spending. I have enough of a time trying to find the time to devote to what I like and the money to support what I want to collect.
If you want to figure out a little about me, ask Red Hook about a phone call we had one night after I won an auction. Ask some people over on the CGC boards about some of the things that ive done. I assure you im not the asshole you think i am, nor do I think that of you.
Look, im a nobody in the HG section of collecting. I dont have a lot of money to spend and I dont begrudge anyone what they collect. I have very little status in comics. I dont spend huge amounts of money on books. I dont have it to spend. But, i dont worry about that mess. I collect what I like, with the limited resources I have, and enjoy every damn minute of it! #allhailme#

So, you want to know what ive been reading lately? In the last 2 weeks ive read:
Batman: Under the Hood vol 1 and 2
Batman: Knightfall v1-3
Superman/Batman v4,5
Batman: Tales of the Demon

Favorite stories of mine: Identity Crisis, Kingdom Come, anything Cap by Brubaker

So, believe if you want to, or disbelieve it if you dont. Frankly I dont give a damn anymore. But there it is in the open, do with what you will with it.

[Capitalrecoveryman]

2-Wrong, again. I can still remember vividly sitting on my friends stoop as he brings out X-Factor 1-4 that he had just bought from Heroes Aren't Hard to Find in Charlotte and being amazed and awed by them. I can remember reading, very carefully, X-Men 67 which reprints X-Men 12/13 and just becoming immersed in the book. I remember picking up a FF 212 or so (Sphinx cover) that was a rat bag with tape and missing pieces and such and reading it and wishing I could get the next issue to finish the story. So no, investment has nothing to do with my love of the hobby.



I just bought some books from them in February at a show down here in Columbia, SC. You still in Charlotte?

[arexcrooke]

Im from Monroe and now live in Lenoir.

[Capitalrecoveryman]

Cool, I had a buddy move to Monroe to run the local Musicland back when we were going to be giants in retail. My buddy actually makes a decent coin at retail (not selling the latest album by Journey any more though).

In your baseball card days, did you ever run across another buddy of mine's dad, Vic Young? He used to set up card shows in SC and NC back when there was actually such a thing as a card show. Ah, those pre-internet days.

[Mac Man]

For what it's worth, Arex is a pretty cool guy--a fellow high school wrestling coach and I'v enjoyed some good (message board) conversations with him. Stu, I do see some of your points about not being into the high grade game, but this is one guy who's never once struck me a comic "snob" at any point.

Can we safely redirect this thread from hating high grade collectors to hating the high grade game? I think it's one thing to dislike a process personally and another to go after the participants which can be taken personally.

[Mariner]

I have loved high grade collectors ever since the day I traded a bagged superman 75 and a platinum spider-man 1 for a low grade amazing spider-man 1.

[Hoss]

Nice trade, Mariner! Welcome to the Corral!

--

[habib]

For what it's worth, Arex is a pretty cool guy--a fellow high school wrestling coach and I'v enjoyed some good (message board) conversations with him. Stu, I do see some of your points about not being into the high grade game, but this is one guy who's never once struck me a comic "snob" at any point.

Can we safely redirect this thread from hating high grade collectors to hating the high grade game? I think it's one thing to dislike a process personally and another to go after the participants which can be taken personally.

Another high school wrestling coach into comics??

Here I thought I was one of a kind and I find I am not alone! #woohoo#

Next year will be my 20th season as the head wrestling coach at our high school (I teach at the middle school) and my 23th year coaching overall #oldie#

[Mac Man]

Well, I'm about as green in that department as you get--just finished my first year and I never had any real prior experience to this point either. One of the joys of boarding schools is that you get all sorts of extra responsibilities. Fortunately, I fell in love with this job--and being an army vet, I was still pretty useful in coming up with some good fitness plans for the kids.

So fear not! There are other athletic comic dorks out there! :)

[The Charlton Guy]

Wecome Mariner & Mac!

It's great to have you on Board.

Have fun and enjoy your time at the Corral.

Best regards,

C.G.

[jordanscott]

this topic has degenerated into something that makes me sad for message boards everywhere.

:mad:

i collect mid-grade because it's easier. there's just more out there.

i know many collectors that collect low grade because it's what's out there (GA) or it's what they can afford.

trying to convince somebody that their collecting habits are wrong (high grade only) is near impossible because it's not wrong. It's just not what you're into. Trying to convince somebody that my collecting habits are right if they don't share them is almost as impossible.

there's a couple issues in all this that get transposed and warped and mishandled. raw v slabbed. a lot of the 'anti-hg' vitriol that's been spewed in this thread seems more like anti-cgc sentiment. the 9.8 is going to be a 9.8 raw or slabbed. some people just want the 3rd party verification from a company they trust. (please no cgc v pgx flaming now).

let's all drop some xanax and chill for a bit.

[sterlingcomics]

I, like Arex, collect what I like. I have beaters and high grade...and I enjoy them for very different reasons. There's no WRONG way to collect, and chastising someone for their preferences is rather impolite and immature.

I hope everyone here can have peace, harmony and comics...not necessarily in that order.

BTW, I think every comics chat board has had this exact conversation at one time or another. It's always "us" vs. "them". Kinda sad, actually, but it is what it is.

[Paratrooper]

I hope everyone here can have peace, harmony and comics...not necessarily in that order.

we can now that Silly Shit- Butt Pirate Eye is banned #woohoo#

[The Watcher]

Hey, how are the new digs?

[The Charlton Guy]

I, like Arex, collect what I like. I have beaters and high grade...and I enjoy them for very different reasons. There's no WRONG way to collect, and chastising someone for their preferences is rather impolite and immature.

I hope everyone here can have peace, harmony and comics...not necessarily in that order.

BTW, I think every comics chat board has had this exact conversation at one time or another. It's always "us" vs. "them". Kinda sad, actually, but it is what it is.

Hey Sterling!

Welcome to the Corral.

I think I can speak for all of the Mods and Hoss on this one and say that there never has been and never will be an "us vs. them" thing going on here. With anybody. We dig having all of you sign on Board and there is plenty of room here, and plenty of great discussion boards to go around. We are very tight with the STL bunch and obvuiously we love having you guys here too. And if I could still contribute over at CGC, I would.

We encourage you (and all of you new Members) to make of the place what you will. That's what it's here for.

As for the title and tone of this particular thread, what can I say? There are always going to be a few people who are highly opinionated and outspoken about their opinions and prejudices.

As for me? As I have said, I love my high grade beauties. And my beaters too. Especially my Reptisaurus #1....#cloud9#

Best regards,

C.G.

[stupidman]

- we can now that Silly Shit- Butt Pirate Eye is banned #woohoo#

I hope this means we can look forward to more brilliant postings like this in the future... #tomato#

[mordo]

Hi Arex. #hello#

You seem like an O.K. guy. Sorry if one of our ex-members got you going like he did. He was way out of line with his remarks, especially the last ones.

[Paratrooper]

I hope this means we can look forward to more brilliant postings like this in the future... #tomato#

no

[Paratrooper]

Hey, how are the new digs?


haven't moved yet, move begins 1 July. My intent is to have the 4th of July weekend in Colorado. Did I ever mention that moving sucks?

[stupidman]

Well then, welcome to the Corral, PT!

Mordo - honestly, most of the CGC guys are o.k. I've been reading the CGC Board for 5 years and already know most of their personalities. There are very few I'd say are complete and total dipshits. I enjoyed Arex' postings in this thread - kinda reminds me of how I post sometimes :)

[jaydeebee]

I hope this means we can look forward to more brilliant postings like this in the future... #tomato#

Sillyship's ban is a temporary one. SS remains one of our most prolific posters, hopefully after his return he will focus his energies in a more positive direction.

[Red Hook]

we can now that Silly is banned #woohoo#


Silly received a two-day cool-down, and will be allowed back on the boards beginning tomorrow around noon EST. It's completely up to him whether he wants to moderate his style a bit, and continue to post here over the long term.

Red

[Red Hook]

The situation is as JDB and I posted simultaneously. Silly received his two day timeout in deference to his long standing on the board and the hope that he can find less inflammatory ways to get his points across.

[mordo]

Well then, welcome to the Corral, PT!

Mordo - honestly, most of the CGC guys are o.k. I've been reading the CGC Board for 5 years and already know most of their personalities. There are very few I'd say are complete and total dipshits. I enjoyed Arex' postings in this thread - kinda reminds me of how I post sometimes :)

Stu, that's a big compliment to Arex. Some of your stuff is quite informative (and entertaining too). I still remember the series of posts you made a couple of years ago on CBG's forums questioning them on why they were ignoring the then-ongoing Jason Ewert scandal. I guess they were afraid of where it might lead to if they dug deep.

[Hoss]

Thanks for clearing that up, guys. I wanted to chime in and also remind everyone that they should be careful not to start with name calling of other members.

There aren't many rules to follow, but I am really big on that one.

Please keep your disagreements respectful.

--

[jaydeebee]

..the hope that he can find less inflammatory ways to get his points across.

As should some of our other posters.#oldie#

[stupidman]

Stu, that's a big compliment to Arex. Some of your stuff is quite informative (and entertaining too). I still remember the series of posts you made a couple of years ago on CBG's forums questioning them on why they were ignoring the then-ongoing Jason Ewert scandal. I guess they were afraid of where it might lead to if they dug deep.

Thanks Mordo. We'll see if Arex feels the same way :)

[arexcrooke]

I musta missed something as what i saw wouldnt have offended my 5 year old. Some things get pulled?

[arexcrooke]

#cloud9#
Sarcasm and a little smart ass are me. I try not to go overboard with either one as it is hard to tell intent when not face to face.
SS never offended me (unless there was some stuff pulled) and tbh said nothing that was out of whack with what I was saying to him.

[arexcrooke]

And I apologize as it seems i started that aspect by referring to Sillyship as stoopidshit.
That was not called for and I apologize for it.

[DrWatson]

Arex = weak

[arexcrooke]

greggy > watson

[DrWatson]

greggy > watson > arex

[arexcrooke]

:whatthe:

[Red Hook]

greggy (lbs.) > watson + arex

[DrWatson]

It's a strange day when I have to tell you to be nice, Brad. #angry1#

[arexcrooke]

greggy (lbs.) > watson + arex:cool:

[clayface]

To me, a high grade collector is someone who collects high grade Golden or to a lesser extent Silver Age comics.

[Catman]

Can we safely redirect this thread from hating high grade collectors to hating the high grade game? I think it's one thing to dislike a process personally and another to go after the participants which can be taken personally.


I agree. I wish all of my books could be high grade and wish nothing but the best of luck to those who collect only high grade books. It's the high grade game and, more specifically, the questionable practices that sometimes occur as part of playing that game, that I dislike.

[Red Hook]

That was my original problem with the tone of this thread. Trying to be realistic, whenever increasingly large sums of money are involved, (and prices on the high end continue to steadily grow - see the recent Comiclink auctions as an example), you'll attract a certain number of, let's call them ethically-indifferent opportunists who will work the system for profit.

That's just the reality. I don't see how that should effect the mid to lower end collector at all. Hate the rules... see if you can effect change ... but don't waste time personally hating the collectors themselves.

[clayface]

That was my original problem with the tone of this thread. Trying to be realistic, whenever increasingly large sums of money are involved, (and prices on the high end continue to steadily grow - see the recent Comiclink auctions as an example), you'll attract a certain number of, let's call them ethically-indifferent opportunists who will work the system for profit.

That's just the reality. I don't see how that should effect the mid to lower end collector at all. Hate the rules... see if you can effect change ... but don't waste time personally hating the collectors themselves.
I understand why people chase high grade books, but where it begins to bother me is when they manipulate the book to achieve an artificially higher grade and when this practise is sanctioned by dealers and CGC, the practice become more and more problematic. It's greed that drives these practices not a competitive spirit that you find among collectors.

[Ijiwaru Sensei]

I understand why people chase high grade books, but where it begins to bother me is when they manipulate the book to achieve an artificially higher grade and when this practise is sanctioned by dealers and CGC, the practice become more and more problematic. It's greed that drives these practices not a competitive spirit that you find among collectors.

Be more specific. Are you talking about pressing, or are you including other forms of restoration?

[clayface]

Be more specific. Are you talking about pressing, or are you including other forms of restoration?

There's pressing and dry erasure and I believe a book can be disassembled and put back together. CGC is slowly adding to that list of items that used to be considered resoration. So yes, I including what I consider to be other forms of restoration. Redhook may have more details than what I've given.

[Red Hook]

CGC is slowly adding to that list of items that used to be considered resoration.

The slowly growing list of what is considered acceptable for a blue label (ie non-restoration) always reminds me of this old fable...


The Camel and His Master




(http://www.rickwalton.com/folktale/junior27.htm)
One night a camel looked into the tent where his master was sleeping. "How warm it is in there!" he said. "I should like a good place like that myself."

The next night he put his head inside the door. "You will not mind my putting my head into the tent, I am sure," said he to his master. "The wind is cold to-night."

"Not at all," replied his master; "there is plenty of room."

In a little while the camel said, "Kind master, my neck is very cold; would you mind if I put it inside the tent?"

"Oh, no," said his master.

Now the camel seemed satisfied. But in a little while he wakened his master, saying, "My forelegs are getting cold. I should like to have them under cover."

His master moved over a little and said, "You may have a little more room. I know it is a cold night." So the camel moved a little farther into the tent.

Very soon the camel wakened his master again, saying, "I keep the tent door open by standing in the door. That makes it cold for both of us. Had I not better come wholly in?"

"Yes, come in," said the master. "There is hardly room for both of us, but I do not want you to suffer from the cold," So the camel crowded into the tent.

As soon as he was inside, he said: "Yes, I see there is not room for both of us inside the tent. If you were to go out, I should have a chance to lie down. So go!" And he pushed his master out of the tent.



Bit by bit, more is being allowed. Somewhere down the line, when every book has been "optimized" and 9.4's 9.6's and 9.8's dominate the SA and GA censuses,.... well, then I guess they'll introduce the 11.0 Grade.

#woohoo#

[stupidman]

CGC does NOT consider the following to be Restoration, and may receive a Blue (Universal) label: small drop of glue and/or color touch on pre-1950 books, tape removal, dry cleaning (erasing pencil writing or surface grime with an eraser or other object), tucking loose wraps back under a staple [http://boards.collectors-society.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=comicgen&Number=1345019&Searchpage=3&Main=1342297&Words=sborock&topic=&Search=true#Post1345019], disassembly and reassembly of a comic [http://boards.collectors-society.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=comicgen&Number=1433649&Searchpage=3&Main=1383374&Words=sborock&topic=&Search=true#Post1433649], certain staple replacement, color touch removal, and pressing [http://boards.collectors-society.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=comicgen&Number=103875&Searchpage=1&Main=102805&Words=public+relations+sborock&topic=&Search=true#Post103875].

Did I miss any?

[stupidman]

well, then I guess they'll introduce the 11.0 Grade.

If that's not my cue, I don't know what is :)

http://members.aol.com/catmanstu/futurama.jpg

[Mariner]

The slowly growing list of what is considered acceptable for a blue label (ie non-restoration) always reminds me of this old fable...



Bit by bit, more is being allowed. Somewhere down the line, when every book has been "optimized" and 9.4's 9.6's and 9.8's dominate the SA and GA censuses,.... well, then I guess they'll introduce the 11.0 Grade.

#woohoo#


Don't worry. When 9.8's become passe, then some people will manage to get their 9.8s upgraded to 11's. Leaving all the people who paid premiums for 11's wondering why they paid so much for an 11. They'll go to the big sellers and say how do I prevent this from happening. What you need to do, they'll be told, is put your money in unrestored 12s and 13s (with 13s especially recommended for horror books). 14s and 15s will be reserved for special edition books which will be printed without ever being exposed to air. And they will be issued in special holders with a special color as yet to be determined.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

If that's not my cue, I don't know what is :)

http://members.aol.com/catmanstu/futurama.jpg

I want to make CGC case's with just money in them. 2.0 would be a dollar, 4.0 a five, 6.0 a ten, 8.0 a twenty, 9.0 a fifty, and the elusive 9.8 would be one hundred. I guess they make a $1000 bill, so that could be the 10.0. I'm just not talented at photo manipulation.

Damien Hurst is a famous modern sculptor and he recently made a platinum skull encrusted in diamonds. http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/popup?id=3234825
The piece sold for $100 million. To me it was a slap in the art worlds face, not a disrespect but more of a comment. The same way Andy Warhol reflected a society totally absorbed with celebrity status in his screen prints of Marilyn Monroe. Damien Hurst's skull says to me, "If your gonna buy art as an investment, then I'm gonna give you a real investment, precious metal and diamonds. He is the most wealthy artist in England ever, including adjustments for inflation. His pieces are bought before they are made and owning a Hurst is a serious investment for an art collector.

I am not insulting anything, just telling a story here, in case anyone wants to get mad at me.

[Mariner]

I want to make CGC case's with just money in them. 2.0 would be a dollar, 4.0 a five, 6.0 a ten, 8.0 a twenty, 9.0 a fifty, and the elusive 9.8 would be one hundred. I guess they make a $1000 bill, so that could be the 10.0.

This is funny because we know it's not a whole lot more silly than what's already going on.

Where's the part about the sponsored web site where people say those 9.8 dollars are a savvy investment while diamonds and gold are worth shite if they're not encapsulated.

[clayface]

I'm more of a midgrade collector.#oldie#

[Quato]

The slowly growing list of what is considered acceptable for a blue label (ie non-restoration) always reminds me of this old fable...



Bit by bit, more is being allowed. Somewhere down the line, when every book has been "optimized" and 9.4's 9.6's and 9.8's dominate the SA and GA censuses,.... well, then I guess they'll introduce the 11.0 Grade.

#woohoo#

Of course they keep changing what they allow or what they accept. Grading is all about money. Grading standards have gotten more strict over the years so that dealer could justify high prices and good profit. Now they are faced with the problem that high grades are snagged up before dealers can get them cheap. That means it's either not worthwhile to get a book graded or you have to find a way to sneak low grades in and make they come out with a high grade. Grading criteria will continue to shift to allow the dealers and the cgc to make money. The only question is "how". The camel story is a perfect analogy. Anybody older than 40 that was happy with a VF in the 70's is a dinosaur in the current market. Never mind that comics only had three grades when I started collecting. The grades were "with cover", "without cover", and "partial cover"

See for yourself..
http://covergallery.sinfree.net/Rogofsky_Catalog/Rogofsky_Catalog_May_1972.html

Q

[Mariner]

Of course they keep changing what they allow or what they accept. Grading is all about money. Grading standards have gotten more strict over the years so that dealer could justify high prices and good profit. Now they are faced with the problem that high grades are snagged up before dealers can get them cheap. That means it's either not worthwhile to get a book graded or you have to find a way to sneak low grades in and make they come out with a high grade. Grading criteria will continue to shift to allow the dealers and the cgc to make money. The only question is "how". The camel story is a perfect analogy. Anybody older than 40 that was happy with a VF in the 70's is a dinosaur in the current market. Never mind that comics only had three grades when I started collecting. The grades were "with cover", "without cover", and "partial cover"

See for yourself..
http://covergallery.sinfree.net/Rogofsky_Catalog/Rogofsky_Catalog_May_1972.html

Q


Standards change constantly so the prices can be manipulated. But they don't just get looser. Sometimes they get tougher, so the people who bought things will have a harder time selling now that standards are tougher. The same thing happens in reverse, with standards getting looser. The key is to keep standards constantly changing, so that some people will pay too high or sell too low. Then once enough books have changed hands, the new owners benefit from the new standards. Remember when valiants sold to the unsuspecting and then flamed out? Now we see the same books once deemed worthless coming back in the market -- but this time they're sold for insane amounts not because they're "hot" new titles but because they're hot high grades. People bought those new by the truckload and never read 'em , them got stuck with 'em by the truckload. Of course there's a whole mess of 'em in "high grade." Why wouldn't they be?

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

^^ Words of wisdom. Once it becomes a "Comic book market" it is susceptible to the same rules as all "markets"...Value must change upon the object changing hands. Nobody buys into a stagnant market. You either have someone who has become a speculator or an investor or a fool. I keep thinking of this Obediah book. Was he an investor, speculator or a fool?

[Mariner]

^^ Words of wisdom. Once it becomes a "Comic book market" it is susceptible to the same rules as all "markets"...Value must change upon the object changing hands. Nobody buys into a stagnant market. You either have someone who has become a speculator or an investor or a fool. I keep thinking of this Obediah book. Was he an investor, speculator or a fool?

Obadiah was a fool. And, so far as people outside comics are concerned, he is all but completely unknown. So I think it would not be wise to buy a copy of that book expecting to turn it around for huge amounts. But the book I got (co-purchased) with a friend cost us a few hundred bucks -- less, much, much less -- than people are paying for copies of Harbinger. Maybe someday we'll sell it, thought I don't expect to get more than say ten or twenty percent above current value. But that will likely outpace the slabbed Harbingers, which I would expect to keep about one percent of current value)

[mordo]

Well, it is a very important book in its own right, something you should see in a comic art museum. Take good care of it and enjoy it until you pass Mr. Oldbuck on to its next owner. :)

[Quato]

Here's a book that offends me. I am offended that a nice looking book with a loose or missing an insert would even receive a qualified grade. This is a DEFECT. To me, giving this a charity grade of 9.4 would be NO different that taking an 8.0 and giving it a 9.4 because "it only has a few spine dings, otherwise it looks like a 9.4"

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a360/gowaltrip/OldestCGC94.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a360/gowaltrip/OldestCGC94back.jpg

I Think books like this deserve a split grade... actual vs apparent... not a "qualified" grade.

Q

[mordo]

I don't disagree with the idea of qualified grades. I think there are situations where they may be warranted. However, I do think CGC green labels should have both numbers on the slab to avoid confusion or potential buyer/seller conflict.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Here's a book that offends me. I am offended that a nice looking book with a loose or missing an insert would even receive a qualified grade. This is a DEFECT. To me, giving this a charity grade of 9.4 would be NO different that taking an 8.0 and giving it a 9.4 because "it only has a few spine dings, otherwise it looks like a 9.4"

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a360/gowaltrip/OldestCGC94.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a360/gowaltrip/OldestCGC94back.jpg

I Think books like this deserve a split grade... actual vs apparent... not a "qualified" grade.

Q


Was the card attached to the book? If not it should not be considered in the grading at all? If we were to follow the logic of giving out Qualified grades for things that came with the comic but were not physically attached than all polybagged comics that are sent in without the bag must get a green. Holy cow, CGC doesn't do that do they?

[Silverdream]

Be happy with what you enjoy, and don't put your nose up at others because their tastes or ideals are different.... thats how I feel anyways

[tiptophimp]

I love High Grade!!!!

[illuminated]

Nice book!

[Hepcat]

Which one? The incomplete one with the qualified grade or some other CGC gem?

:confused:

[Hepcat]

I just get sick of all of these speculators who buy slabbed books as an investment and never read comics at all.

Overall I'm with you.

I have mixed feelings about CGC. On the one hand, I like a third party grading service and I like CGC's attempts, imperfect though they may be, to find and disclose restoration.

On the other hand, I don't like how the existence of CGC has turned comics into just another commodity since this has invited more speculators into the comic market. Does everybody remember Jay Perrino's The Mint? Was Jay in the least interested in comics before the CGC era? It seems to me that the influx of speculators at least temporarily pushed up prices. I actually love to see a flipper overpay and then take a bath on a resale.

Moreover, I keep my books raw. I don't like to see books slabbed since to a certain extent that removes books from the pool from which I collect. I can of course always break open a slabbed book and I have on a number of occasions but all too often that book costs more than it would have raw.

#professor#