new Legion of Super-Heroes by Jim Shooter

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Anyone reading LSH since Jim Shooter took over? Any good? Has a Shooter storyline wrapped up yet for a softcover collection?

[Blah]

The first few that I read were good. Lots of story packed in there. It feels like you're getting your money's worth.

There's a hardcover scheduled for October that collects his first eight issues. It's in the August solicitations.

I did read that Shooter isn't going to be on the book all that long though, since he didn't like the idea of Geoff Johns's Legion of Three Worlds storyline or something like that. I hope its not the case.

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I wish he'd get some backers and start a new company again.

[oxbladder]

That won't happen again because everyone knows he's a diva.

[Quato]

I can't stand the art. I know enough about Jim Shooter from Pauline Weiss (former editor at Defiant & Broadway) & Janet Jackson (colorist at Marvel, Valiant, Defiant & Broadway) that this is not the way Jim tells a story with panels. Jim uses a very traditional style like that found in the Watchmen series. It is a format that facilitates his telling of the story. Jim is very detailed about camera angles, facial expressions, what you see etc. This series is just a blob of crappy art thrown at a page to see how it lands.

As far as I'm concerned, DC just wants to milk off Jim's name without giving fans the formula for success we expect to be associated with his name. Now that I know he's off the book, I know they don't need to get another dime of my money. I was going to drop it anyway because of the art. Maybe if they ever want to really hire Jim Shooter I'll take his name in the credits more seriously. I'm a bit sick of publishers wanting instant sales results. Jim builds his stories. Valiant didn't get noticed until Solar 10 at Valiant. That's close to a year of fans not thinking much about the company. It's not until you see the scope and cohesiveness of it that it can be seen as a masterpiece.

I still haven't read the latest issue of Legion. If you go back two issues before the last one, they had a panel where Princess Projectra is in her abandoned palace. The dialog talks about how grand it was before. So in the next panel she is supposedly projecting what it used to look like in all it's granduer. Well, heck... it looks exactly the same with a few extra torches as well as pillows on the floor. Evidently the characters really think pillows are some grand type of furnishing for a palace. If you go back one issue before this last one, all the characters look alike with Dragon ball Z hair. I had to stop reading, skim back and forward a few pages just to figure out who was talking. When art is that annoying, I quit reading. There are too many artists that know how to tell a story with pictures. Manapul isn't one. I was going to drop the book anyway.

Shooter was doing fine, but Shooter needs to be working with artists who draw his story correctly. That's one of the reasons Unity 2000 never finished. Starlin drew what he wanted to draw and it didn't match the dialog or the circumstances Shooter was trying to layout and establish. If a character is supposed to look small and frail, you don't draw them all buff and bulky like Hulk.

I don't think Shooter is a diva. I think he gets tired of artists that don't follow the script. At least when Barry Windsor Smith deviated at Valiant, he tried to make his changes logical. If you look at notes Barry sent to Jim which were posted at Barry's site, you see that he really did care about improving the integrity of the story. Most artists don't.

I listened to one very respected artist tell me he refused an assignment drawing one Marvel character because the very respected writer had him in prison garb for the whole series. He only wanted to draw the character in costume in classic poses or he wasn't going to accept the assignment. I guess the writer has to anticipate after market art sales when they decide which stories to tell or what kind of content to fit in the panel. They can't let the characters take time to talk. They have to get another half page shot of of a hero posed and pushing out his chest like an idiot.

Q

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Q,

Thanks for the great post.

Now that I know he's off the book, I know they don't need to get another dime of my money. I was going to drop it anyway because of the art.

Do you know Shooter's last issue writing LSH?

Jim builds his stories. Valiant didn't get noticed until Solar 10 at Valiant. That's close to a year of fans not thinking much about the company. It's not until you see the scope and cohesiveness of it that it can be seen as a masterpiece.

Valiant, during Shooter's direction, was wonderful. I picked all the titles up day-one and enjoyed them all, especially the Shooter-scripted stories. He has a natural ability to develop characters so you really care about them. The stories are always interesting. Things happen. No padding. Plenty of stuff to read. I never felt like I'm getting hosed for my dollar.

I still haven't read the latest issue of Legion.

I read my comics in chunks-completed storylines. I haven't read any of Shooter's LSH stories yet. Since his time is ending on the title, I'll wait until I have them all and go thru them at one sitting.

I think he gets tired of artists that don't follow the script.

That's why we've seen the same artists working for him in the past, I'd think. Alan Weiss and J.G. Jones come to mind.

If you look at notes Barry sent to Jim which were posted at Barry's site, you see that he really did care about improving the integrity of the story. Most artists don't.

Barry Windsor-Smith and David Lapham added so much quality to the Valiant Universe. Solar, Archer & Armstrong, Harbinger...great stuff!

I listened to one very respected artist tell me he refused an assignment drawing one Marvel character because the very respected writer had him in prison garb for the whole series. He only wanted to draw the character in costume in classic poses or he wasn't going to accept the assignment. I guess the writer has to anticipate after market art sales when they decide which stories to tell or what kind of content to fit in the panel. They can't let the characters take time to talk. They have to get another half page shot of of a hero posed and pushing out his chest like an idiot.

Alas, one of the downsides of comics today caused by the original art market. Unnecessary splash pages & two-page spreads. Many don't want to do the grunt work of taking time to tell stories. I miss seeing lots of panels with lots of words. Writers get some of blame for this as well. (And before someone says "Hey, they gotta make a living!" I know that. It's a shame the creative industry has come to this.)

[oxbladder]

Oh please. There are just as many good stories and art as in the past. The original art market has had no effect on the content of the comics. Both art and stories have changed alot over the last twenty years and they will continue to. The great thing about comics is if you like a particular style of the past you can always get that from reading your old books. But folks will have to get over the fact that times change and you can either change with them or just collect and read those old books and leave the new stuff to those that like it.

Shooter is a diva he has a style that doesn't really suit today's reader or artists. Ultimately though if he doesn't like the way the artist is depicting his work he can walk away from the project or forward his complaints to the editor. I like Shooter's work but it is fact that he is hard to work with and for and that is ultimately why every project/company he works on or for collapses. His time has passed, for the most part.

[Quato]

Oh please. There are just as many good stories and art as in the past. The original art market has had no effect on the content of the comics. Both art and stories have changed alot over the last twenty years and they will continue to. The great thing about comics is if you like a particular style of the past you can always get that from reading your old books. But folks will have to get over the fact that times change and you can either change with them or just collect and read those old books and leave the new stuff to those that like it.

Shooter is a diva he has a style that doesn't really suit today's reader or artists. Ultimately though if he doesn't like the way the artist is depicting his work he can walk away from the project or forward his complaints to the editor. I like Shooter's work but it is fact that he is hard to work with and for and that is ultimately why every project/company he works on or for collapses. His time has passed, for the most part.

Obviously you have different standards than I do. Then again you collect Wonder Woman, and there is not a lot of deep subject matter in that series.

I love it when people say there is no market for the 70's or 80's way of telling a story. The comics industry is a lot smaller now. If there is no market for that kind of storytelling, it's because the 90's and more recent storylines are so bad they ran the collectors off.

Once you alienate collectors by offering them fodder to replace what they once enjoyed.... why would you expect there to be an audience?

Q

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The original art market has had no effect on the content of the comics.

No doubt, many of today's artist are looking for pages in each script where they can get away with the splash which knowingly translates into nice bucks in their pockets from the art buyers.
Most of today's writers write giving the artist maximum leeway in telling the story. Less words. Less time spent on the story.
This accomplishes two things: the writer can bash out more stories making more money and the artist can pick scenes loosely scripted by the writer to go for the splash.
Everyone makes more money but the buyer/fan pays a minimum $2.99 for a lesser package. Less bang for the buck. Less fans overall. Lower printruns. Declining readership and market.

[Quato]

Q,

Thanks for the great post.

Now that I know he's off the book, I know they don't need to get another dime of my money. I was going to drop it anyway because of the art.

Do you know Shooter's last issue writing LSH?

I'm borrowing links from one of my board members...

Shooter is being solicited for the most recent issue..
http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Aug08/solicitations.html

Mark Waid mentions Jim being off the book in a podcast which can be found here..
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=157442
The comment is at the 54:40 mark on the podcast.

I borrowed these links from a thread about Legion on my board:
http://defiant1.proboards27.com/index.cgi?board=dccomics&action=display&thread=1108



Jim builds his stories. Valiant didn't get noticed until Solar 10 at Valiant. That's close to a year of fans not thinking much about the company. It's not until you see the scope and cohesiveness of it that it can be seen as a masterpiece.

Valiant, during Shooter's direction, was wonderful. I picked all the titles up day-one and enjoyed them all, especially the Shooter-scripted stories. He has a natural ability to develop characters so you really care about them. The stories are always interesting. Things happen. No padding. Plenty of stuff to read. I never felt like I'm getting hosed for my dollar.

Shooters writing appeals to collectors who aren't just wanting to see splash pages and pretty colors. It will take years to bring back the collectors the hobby has run off.



I still haven't read the latest issue of Legion.

I read my comics in chunks-completed storylines. I haven't read any of Shooter's LSH stories yet. Since his time is ending on the title, I'll wait until I have them all and go thru them at one sitting.


According to a post at publisher's weekly, Legion had a positive sales increase of 70.8% over the previous month. In my area it sold out.
http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/04/02/dc-comics-month-to-month-sales-february-2008/#more-5045

All the Shooter fans that I know dislike the art.



I think he gets tired of artists that don't follow the script.

That's why we've seen the same artists working for him in the past, I'd think. Alan Weiss and J.G. Jones come to mind.

Jim Shooter hired J.G Jones after seeing his art at a convention. There are many modern artists that are highly regarded today and got their start under Shooter. Georges Jeanty is in a lot of modern comics. He started on Dogs of War at Defiant. J.G. Jones started on Dark Dominion at Defiant. David Lapham started on Magnus & Harbinger at Valiant.

One artist told me how much he appreciated Shooter, but he said it quietly so his peers wouldn't hear him. Jim Shooter equals controversy. Strangely... controversy equals free advertising. More people should hire him for that controversy.



If you look at notes Barry sent to Jim which were posted at Barry's site, you see that he really did care about improving the integrity of the story. Most artists don't.

Barry Windsor-Smith and David Lapham added so much quality to the Valiant Universe. Solar, Archer & Armstrong, Harbinger...great stuff!


Until Shooter left. After that the books are horrid.



I listened to one very respected artist tell me he refused an assignment drawing one Marvel character because the very respected writer had him in prison garb for the whole series. He only wanted to draw the character in costume in classic poses or he wasn't going to accept the assignment. I guess the writer has to anticipate after market art sales when they decide which stories to tell or what kind of content to fit in the panel. They can't let the characters take time to talk. They have to get another half page shot of of a hero posed and pushing out his chest like an idiot.

Alas, one of the downsides of comics today caused by the original art market. Unnecessary splash pages & two-page spreads. Many don't want to do the grunt work of taking time to tell stories. I miss seeing lots of panels with lots of words. Writers get some of blame for this as well. (And before someone says "Hey, they gotta make a living!" I know that. It's a shame the creative industry has come to this.)

Some people get it, some people don't. Glad to see there are still collectors around that understand the difference between then and now. Glad to see someone knows how much has been lost.


Q

[Quato]

The original art market has had no effect on the content of the comics.

No doubt, many of today's artist are looking for pages in each script where they can get away with the splash which knowingly translates into nice bucks in their pockets from the art buyers.
Most of today's writers write giving the artist maximum leeway in telling the story. Less words. Less time spent on the story.
This accomplishes two things: the writer can bash out more stories making more money and the artist can pick scenes loosely scripted by the writer to go for the splash.
Everyone makes more money but the buyer/fan pays a minimum $2.99 for a lesser package. Less bang for the buck. Less fans overall. Lower printruns. Declining readership and market.

That is exactly correct and the creators will justify this behavior because it puts more money in their pocket and makes their job easier. It is a very large reason why I'm fed up with modern comics. That and the fact every storyline is created to shock the reader and not grow the character.

Q

[oxbladder]

You guys are almost laughable. Yes AI collect Wonder Woman who cares? Splash pages are no less common than they were in the 70's and 80's. In fact it was Kirby in the 70's that made the splash commonplace before then it was hardly used at all and you want to blame collectors of OA and today's artists for the splash?

Quato I read LOTS more books than Wonder Woman I read all genres, all styles, all sorts of companies big and small. I have been reading material from 1936 to present for 29 years now so I think I can speak for art and stories. You may like only the classic dinosaurs like Shooter, Byrne, and Lee but I like them all. There isn't one age that I think is better or worse than the last. I am sorry you cannot accept that times change and people's taste changes but it does and if you actually read around you may actually find that there are a great number of talented writers and artists out there. Some writers are much more visual in their presentation some are not. Funny thing is that you CAN tell a good story with few words just as much as you can tell a crappy story with an abundance of words.

The simple fact is if you don't like a book then just don't read it. I stay away from Byrne, Liefeld and a host of others because I don't like them. Funny thing is that I don't stay away from people like Shooter or Lee because they can still tell stories.

Circulation has actually increased in the last few years BUT the fact is they have never, ever, ever been as high as they were in the 40's. Circulation has dropped NOT because of quality of the material but because it is a form of entertainment that just cannot compete with the other forms of entertainment like TV, movies, video games, etc. Not only that but comics have never, ever, ever, ever been a highly respected form of entertainment. Whether right or wrong they have battled a respect issue for decades.

I won't even get into other factors that have hurt this industry over the years and very little of it has to do with art, stories and other content. Of course you would rather blame other collectors and the new crop of creators rather than the forces which are actually to blame.

It is too bad that Shooter can't make it now but he is as much to blame for that as anyone else. I have no doubt at all that if he started another company up it would be dead in two years ... just like Broadway and Broadway was loaded with sub par stories and art. So there you go Shooter is one of those people that brought about the same forces you say are destroying the market.

[pasnat54]

I'll leave the question of whether Jim Shooter is a diva up to those who pay more attention to the comic gossip tabloids than I do. Commenting strictly on his latest run on the Legion, I think it's just okay. Not great, not as good as his first run. Of course, that's about the time I was becoming a huge Legion fan, so maybe nothing can top my nostalgia for that era.

I take that back; Paul Levitz and Keith Giffen produced the best Legion stories ever, especially the Great Darkness sage. I also enjoyed the Legion during the Dave Cockrum and Mike Grell eras.

So maybe it is the art; it's in that angular, semi-mangaesque style that I don't care much for. Maybe I'd like the stories better if there was better art. There was one sequence where Phantom Girl, one of my favorites, is running around in her nightgown. Should have been great, but the blockiness and angularity of the art made it less than it could have been.

Another thing I don't like is the characterizations. I don't know if Shooter is responsible for them or if he's just carrying them over from what's been established. I don't like Lighting Lad as an overwhelmed incompetent, nor Princess Projectra as a haughty, arrogant royal. Neither seems up to the old Legion creed, and I feel like they have been tinkered with because somebody thought that loutishness equaled depth.

I would like to see a lot less political bickering with the powers that be on Earth, and more of the space opera dynamics that marked the Legion's glory days more than two decades ago.

Is the former Legion wunderkind the guy to do it? He Shoots, ooooh, just misses!

[Quato]

You guys are almost laughable. Yes AI collect Wonder Woman who cares? Splash pages are no less common than they were in the 70's and 80's. In fact it was Kirby in the 70's that made the splash commonplace before then it was hardly used at all and you want to blame collectors of OA and today's artists for the splash?

Quato I read LOTS more books than Wonder Woman I read all genres, all styles, all sorts of companies big and small. I have been reading material from 1936 to present for 29 years now so I think I can speak for art and stories. You may like only the classic dinosaurs like Shooter, Byrne, and Lee but I like them all. There isn't one age that I think is better or worse than the last. I am sorry you cannot accept that times change and people's taste changes but it does and if you actually read around you may actually find that there are a great number of talented writers and artists out there. Some writers are much more visual in their presentation some are not. Funny thing is that you CAN tell a good story with few words just as much as you can tell a crappy story with an abundance of words.

The simple fact is if you don't like a book then just don't read it. I stay away from Byrne, Liefeld and a host of others because I don't like them. Funny thing is that I don't stay away from people like Shooter or Lee because they can still tell stories.

Circulation has actually increased in the last few years BUT the fact is they have never, ever, ever been as high as they were in the 40's. Circulation has dropped NOT because of quality of the material but because it is a form of entertainment that just cannot compete with the other forms of entertainment like TV, movies, video games, etc. Not only that but comics have never, ever, ever, ever been a highly respected form of entertainment. Whether right or wrong they have battled a respect issue for decades.

I won't even get into other factors that have hurt this industry over the years and very little of it has to do with art, stories and other content. Of course you would rather blame other collectors and the new crop of creators rather than the forces which are actually to blame.

It is too bad that Shooter can't make it now but he is as much to blame for that as anyone else. I have no doubt at all that if he started another company up it would be dead in two years ... just like Broadway and Broadway was loaded with sub par stories and art. So there you go Shooter is one of those people that brought about the same forces you say are destroying the market.

Compare it to shopping for produce. If you like everything on the rack, that's good for you. I happen to be more discerning. If the quality is poor, I pick over that and look for something that isn't going bad. Once I'm done picking over everything, the industry is not creating product for me. Many of my past comic book peers feel the same way and that is why print runs are so low and series get cancelled and rebooted every few months. If the quality of the product were to improve tomorrow, that would still not bring the more discerning fan back into the fold. That is why I consider DC and Marvel to be poorly managed. They aren't even trying to appeal to new collectors or the collectors that left the hobby. They are too busy trying to trick you into buying an extra variant or a TPB reprinting some series they released last year.

Q

[oxbladder]

Fair enough. I know plenty of people that are turned off much of the modern stuff. There is lots of good stuff out there and it may not be about being less discerning either it may boil down to varying tastes. I don't know if you stick to one genre or not but if you do just mainly read Super Hero then yes it can be very hard pickings out there. I tend to stay away from most franchise characters because in most cases they try too hard to be something they simply are not. To make up for that I read alot of other stuff to get my fix.

I firmly believe that it isn't prices for OA that have changed the story telling as much as it is the fact that collector's tastes now are so much different. You are dealing with a majority of collectors who have grown up with a very different set of influences inside and outside comics. and us older collectors may not like it but it is just a fact of life.

Thanks too for you very calm and measured answers they are two good posts and I would not argue with them (other than what I stated in the first paragraph). I certainly agree Marvel and DC are very poorly managed.