Why are HG collectors hated??

[arexcrooke]

I posted this in the other thread but am afraid that it might get lost. With s*********s or whatever his names rant on HG collectors got me wondering why are we so hated.
So, here is my post.
Comments, smart-assed, uninformed, obnoxious, or whatever are welcome.



I just cant seem to understand why people diss on what others collect. I have never ever seen a HG collector make a post/thread that talks about how he hates people who collect LG books. Never. And I have been on CPG.com, CGC, STL, and here. And made a bunch of posts and read a bunch of threads. And I have never seen it happen any way other than HG collectors suck and are a ruination of the hobby.

So what is it with the LG (and lets be honest, it is only a very small portion of people who do this) collector that causes them so much angst and hate towards us evil HG collectors?

I dont have much of an idea tbh, but maybe we can turn this thread around. my ideas:
1-Envy-they cant afford HG books so they are jealous over those who can.
I dont buy this too much as I think it is a cop-out. Something just doesnt ring right about this. Ive seen the volume that some of the LG collectors buy in and in truth, they probably spend as much as most HG collectors do, just in a different way.
2-Resentment-They see the prices that the HG books go for and just resent the fact that something that they love can be so valuable and it automatically turns into money hungry speculators who have no care for the hobby just trying to make a killing and kill the hobby in the meantime
3-Greed- They resent that HG books are easily resold for usually at worst break even or even worse small-large profit. They resent that their collection will be very tough to sell and they wont be able to get their money back without either large amounts of work (and thus high expenses) or taking a bulk deal and getting 20% of OS.
4-Childish mentality- These are the folks who cant understand why anyone would choose to do something other than what they think is the best. Limited social skills, and an inability to interact with others without seeming demeaning or just plain weird. I think this might have something to do with it. Narrow minded might be a better term. This could also apply to the ubiquitous "they" that deride LG buyers of what they buy and collect. So this is a two way street.

So, anybody want to discuss this?

[DrWatson]

I didn't want your post to feel lonely. #kiss#

[arexcrooke]

That is so sweet of you :blush:

[MrBedrock]

Arex, I think it all boils down to a lack of understanding.
Anyone who would hate on the high grade collector just doesn't understand the rush, thrill, excitement etc. that we
(yes, put me in the high grade camp) get from running across a book like this...



http://www.bedrockcity.com/images/singleseries20.jpg



What was paid for it is irrelevant. It could never match the beauty of this book to me.
And if someone gets the same thrill out of a 9.9 modern, even though that ain't my thang, I totally get it.

[DrWatson]

It's 10.0 moderns.#hello#

Ah, who am I kidding. I only have two, but they do bookend my 9.9s quite well. ;-)

[The Charlton Guy]

Arex, I think it all boils down to a lack of understanding.
Anyone who would hate on the high grade collector just doesn't understand the rush, thrill, excitement etc. that we
(yes, put me in the high grade camp) get from running across a book like this...




http://www.bedrockcity.com/images/singleseries20.jpg




What was paid for it is irrelevant. It could never match the beauty of this book to me.
And if someone gets the same thrill out of a 9.9 modern, even though that ain't my thang, I totally get it.

That is a very sweet book.

Did you find it in the slab or out?

[MrBedrock]

That is a very sweet book.

Did you find it in the slab or out?
I first saw it out of the slab. But Brian at A-1 (who found the Central Valley books) wanted to slab it to quantify a grade and establish a value before he sold it. I might have cracked it out, but I already had another copy.

[The Charlton Guy]

Nice. Were there more books of similar caliber from the same collection?

[DrWatson]

Nice. Were there more books of similar caliber from the same collection?
...

[stupidman]

I posted this in the other thread but am afraid that it might get lost. With s*********s or whatever his names rant on HG collectors got me wondering why are we so hated.
So, here is my post.

1-Envy-they cant afford HG books so they are jealous over those who can.
I dont buy this too much as I think it is a cop-out. Something just doesnt ring right about this. Ive seen the volume that some of the LG collectors buy in and in truth, they probably spend as much as most HG collectors do, just in a different way.
2-Resentment-They see the prices that the HG books go for and just resent the fact that something that they love can be so valuable and it automatically turns into money hungry speculators who have no care for the hobby just trying to make a killing and kill the hobby in the meantime
3-Greed- They resent that HG books are easily resold for usually at worst break even or even worse small-large profit. They resent that their collection will be very tough to sell and they wont be able to get their money back without either large amounts of work (and thus high expenses) or taking a bulk deal and getting 20% of OS.
4-Childish mentality- These are the folks who cant understand why anyone would choose to do something other than what they think is the best. Limited social skills, and an inability to interact with others without seeming demeaning or just plain weird. I think this might have something to do with it. Narrow minded might be a better term. This could also apply to the ubiquitous "they" that deride LG buyers of what they buy and collect. So this is a two way street.


5. I dislike people who are that anal in general. Doesn't have to be comic related. I also think "OCD" is just an excuse - "don't blame me, I have OCD, I can't help it". Yes, you can. Again, doesn't have to be comic related, but of course both of these spill over to comics.

Speculators are a whole different story... but we're talking about collectors here. (Which makes me think the two points in #2 are apples and oranges unless qualified better).

[stupidman]

Isn't Central Valley the "pedigree" that CGC deemed as such even though it doesn't meet standard pedigree requirements?

[The Charlton Guy]

Nice.

So Brian sent all of them to CGC before flipping them?

I don't see a date on your Press Release Doc, when were these books purchased by Brian?

Does Brian still have any?

Or are they out and about in the marketplace by now?

[The Charlton Guy]

And Brian really held onto them for 13 years before submitting them to CGC?

[Red Hook]

I've never bought the concept of the Central Valley as a valid pedigree. Nice collection. Just not a pedigree. Here are the criteria to consider:

For a collection to be considered a pedigree, it must first meet certain requirements:

1. It must all come from one original owner who bought them off the newsstand.

2. They must be of superior quality.

3. The collection should have a large accumulation of books (i.e. Mile High, Pacific Coast) or a smaller accumulation of very important books (i.e. Denver, Allentown).

4. Another important factor is existing market acceptance of a collection as a pedigree.

[oxbladder]

I hate haters.

Sometimes though I think that high grade collectors are just as ignorant. I have seen just as much back-handed comments from HG collectors and that kind of stuff just works against you. Some HG collectors too seem to think they are pretty hot shite and come across as braggarts. Sometimes too it is just frustrating when you are trying to get nicest books for your collection on limited funds but some HG collectors have thrown so much cash around that what was once an achievable goal vanishes.

HG CGC collectors have also made it virtually impossible for honest decent graders to get decent prices for their books. They have made it seem like you cannot trust anything out of a slab that is claimed to be in HG even it it is right before your eyes and you know what sort of resto to keep an eye out for. Scams do happen but CGCers and internet consumers make it sound that what is happening online it common everywhere.

That's just what I see and hear on the streets though. I personally have nothing against HG collectors unless they make you feel bad for collecting lesser copies or profess to know more about comics because they collect higher grade stuff.

Just my two cents let the bitch-slapping commence if you see fit.

[DrWatson]

I deleted the info. Google your own stuff. I don't like where this is heading. That's the last constructive I'll ever make here. Once bitten, twice shy.

[The Charlton Guy]

Hey, don't look at me. I'm one of the "hated high-grade collectors".

I'll take one shinin' high grade GA or SA book over ten long-boxes of BA or Moderns.

[oxbladder]

Was it something I said? I was just trying answer as honestly as we were asked :(

[alecholland]

I posted this in the other thread but am afraid that it might get lost. With s********s or whatever his names rant on HG collectors got me wondering why are we so hated.
So, here is my post.
Comments, smart-assed, uninformed, obnoxious, or whatever are welcome.

Well, it probably doesn't help folk's view of HG collectors when you resort to name calling. #dunno#

To answer your question though, with regard to Sillyships, it's simply because he's young. Everything tends to be more black & white, us vs. them when you are younger.

I will say that I think there are many collectors and dealers who don't see anything positive with regard to CGC and PGX and the direction the hobby seems to have taken since their inception. Namely, what I think is viewed as artificially bloated prices realized for HG comics based on slight, some might argue imperceptible, differences between 9.4, 9.6, & 9.8 graded comics. And that these slight differences, based on the judgements of a handful of people, don't justify the Richter magnitude-like differences in pricing.

I'm personally of the opinion that you should collect how you want to collect. I don't hate high grade collectors or low grade collectors, or almost anyone for that matter. If you have the disposable income to spend, you should be able to buy what you like without getting raked over the coals about it.

However, I will also say that I don't think highest graded copy necessarily means best copy. I've seen some 9.4 & 9.6 copies of books with some pretty fugly miswraps. I find it hard to understand why someone would spend 2 or 3 times guide for those books, when they could have a nicely centered 9.2 or even 9.0 copy with white pages for significantly less. When it gets to be a number chasing game, that's where I'm confused. That's where I think it's more about acquiring an object than collecting comics. But, to each his own.

[MrBedrock]

I've never bought the concept of the Central Valley as a valid pedigree. Nice collection. Just not a pedigree. Here are the criteria to consider:

For a collection to be considered a pedigree, it must first meet certain requirements:

1. It must all come from one original owner who bought them off the newsstand.

2. They must be of superior quality.

3. The collection should have a large accumulation of books (i.e. Mile High, Pacific Coast) or a smaller accumulation of very important books (i.e. Denver, Allentown).

4. Another important factor is existing market acceptance of a collection as a pedigree.
The only requirement that doesn't apply to the Central Valleys is #3 (if you don't think Batman 2, Superman 4, Action 24 etc. are keys). The collection had a small amount of DC superhero (maybe 50 or so), a few other publishers (Fantastic 3, Planet 4), and a lot of newspaper reprint titles. But the collection was very special in that a very high proportion of the books were of better quality than even the Mile Highs.

But folks around here probably aren't interested in any of that kind of info. It doesn't seem to fit with the general spirit of this comic forum.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

OP, I've never seen you here before, but your reference to s********t is obviously me and the thread I started so I'll reply.

I don't hate anyone, I don't sit on the fence on most issues because I'm too busy hopping back and forth. I only started that thread to discuss and regret the use of the word "hate". As far as this issue goes, this is how I see it.
People who collect nothing but high grade to put in slabs and hang on the wall are weird to me. What was said about HG (and what are the rest of us to be called?) spending the same as other collectors may be true. I'd easily spend $600 cumulatively on large amounts of comics before I'll buy one single book. But see, the large amount have more reading potential, and I guess, silly me, that is still the main value a comic has. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to say that you HG collectors don't read comics, most of you probably read more than me, but those 9.8's can't be read, & yet don't loose any value for that lack of readability, they actually gain value. Why does the value increase so much? For one reason only, a belief that they are superior.
The OP said
"4-Childish mentality- These are the folks who cant understand why anyone would choose to do something other than what they think is the best. Limited social skills, and an inability to interact with others without seeming demeaning or just plain weird. I think this might have something to do with it. Narrow minded might be a better term. This could also apply to the ubiquitous "they" that deride LG buyers of what they buy and collect. So this is a two way street."
Although you try to be nice at the end there, your whole OP basically reeks of superiority. Your a HG collector and the rest of us are just dealing in rubbish. How do you think that attitude will effect the future collectors? Will a noob want to collect a full run and read it, or a single slabbed book?
Readable comics being looked at this way cannot be good for the hobby.
I buy more and more based on grade. And I lean more and more towards high (9.2+). I feel that that is a bad thing. That is just my gut reaction as a "comic collector" influenced by the community and how it evolves . It makes sense for an investor, and as a collector in this post eBay/CGC environment, to only buy HG books, but is it good for the hobby?

It's not just HG collectors that are changing our hobby, it's the whole world, CGC, eBay, the GCD, cover images of individual comics that can be purchased, movies, the dropping dollar...

The resulting trends I see are a lack of interest in modern age books, even though the stories and often times the art, are better.

A group movement towards purchasing books based on the cover alone.

An increase of conversation about comics value and sales results, & a subsequent decrease in conversation about the stories.

I don't know if this has happened yet but I feel that many collectors will begin want to collect original art.

A lot more scammers.

A lot more speculators.

More affordable copies being spread around.

I just don't know what to think anymore. I know that the HG collectors seem to flaunt books based on value. I've got a part of that type of collector in me and sometimes rebel against it.

I'll end with this statement. I have a New Mutants full run that I bought as I was reading it and a NM #1 CGC 9.8. I'd much sooner part with that slabbed book than that full run or even half that run. Why? Because I can read that run and pass it along one day as a full run to a buyer who wants to read them. How do you feel about that?

[The Charlton Guy]

The only requirement that doesn't apply to the Central Valleys is #3 (if you don't think Batman 2, Superman 4, Action 24 etc. are keys). The collection had a small amount of DC superhero (maybe 50 or so), a few other publishers (Fantastic 3, Planet 4), and a lot of newspaper reprint titles. But the collection was very special in that a very high proportion of the books were of better quality than even the Mile Highs.

But folks around here probably aren't interested in any of that kind of info. It doesn't seem to fit with the general spirit of this comic forum.

I for one am very interested.

And the spirit here is quite upbeat and friendly. Usually.

Perhaps you get out of the place what you bring to it.

[mordo]

I for one am very interested.

And the spirit here is quite upbeat and friendly. Usually.

Perhaps you get out of the place what you bring to it.

I find it interesting too.

[Mr.Digglerstanley1]

As collectors we collect what we like. Hg or beaters who gives a sh!t! I may not be able to afford HG books all of the time but to those who can I love to look at their books when they are posted. Collect what you like. #cheers#

[The Charlton Guy]

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful...#allhailme#

[MrBedrock]

Perhaps you get out of the place what you bring to it.
Then why do you keep bringing such crap?

[The Charlton Guy]

Because you are really beginning to piss me off.

Each and every post of yours is heaped with negativity.

Just like the Doc.

If you don't like it here, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Alec, I'm 39 and have been collecting since 1983. I don't think I'm young, I'm just kinda dumb and isolated. We've never had more than two comic shops here and at times had none. The implications of that are more than most of you can understand. For instance when I get to look at local people's collections to sell or assess they will be missing the same issues in a run I have and the same typical damage to a particular issue I have. I bought back issues from American and Eagle and Mile High and many more prior to the internet but always felt I was loosing money and more importantly getting less readabilty for my money than buying moderns at my LCS. And frankly, of all the books I've read/re-read lately, The Infinity Gauntlet was one of the best. So here I am again hopping the fence on how worthless moderns are.
I regret the fact that most of my comic reading was reduced to moderns. I tried to re-read "Guardians of the Galaxy" and just kept asking myself why did I ever read this? But I'm sure we all have similar feelings.
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/0/6/0/3/0/6/webimg/138971394_o.jpg

[comicworkbench]

As collectors we collect what we like. Hg or beaters who gives a sh!t! I may not be able to afford HG books all of the time but to those who can I love to look at their books when they are posted. Collect what you like. #cheers#

Diggler-I agree. Collect what you like and do not feel you have to explain anything to anybody.

I am a low grade collector because I cannot afford high grade and like to read the comics. I understand having a comic you love and wanting a high grade copy CGCd or PGXd because you love the issue. I would want a reading copy as well.

I have trouble understanding someone collecting high grade without reading copies. I am not picking a fight but I am curious. Is there a HG collector who may want to explain that one?

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Yeah, I'd like to hear that explanation too.

[The Charlton Guy]

...I have trouble understanding someone collecting high grade without reading copies. I am not picking a fight but I am curious. Is there a HG collector who may want to explain that one?

I am a self-confessed high-grade nut.

And I would never buy a high grade book that I couldn't read and check out every page.

If that means cracking a slab? No big deal.

But I prefer "raw", high grade, one-owner books.

[jaeldubyoo]

Diggler-I agree. Collect what you like and do not feel you have to explain anything to anybody.

I am a low grade collector because I cannot afford high grade and like to read the comics. I understand having a comic you love and wanting a high grade copy CGCd or PGXd because you love the issue. I would want a reading copy as well.

I have trouble understanding someone collecting high grade without reading copies. I am not picking a fight but I am curious. Is there a HG collector who may want to explain that one?

I’ll take a shot at a possible explanation, if you don’t mind. First off, I’m not a HG collector. I have a lot of high grade books. But I don’t own any slabbed books, nary a one.

I love owning things. I have many types of collectibles. Comics, magazines and books I don’t read. Toys that I don’t play with. Cups that I don’t drink out of. Cards that are boxed away. Coins that I don’t spend. Stamps that I don’t use for mailing letters. The list goes on and on. I may not read or use a lot of objects, but I love owning them. I derive a lot of satisfaction just having them.

Now don’t get me wrong. I enjoy reading comics. I love a good story and good art. Although I’ve read most of the comics I have, there are some I’ve never read. Sometimes just having them is good enough for me.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

^^Eats raw meat as well (not afraid of mad cows).

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Yeah, collecting is weird. It's a self re-affirment. The funny thing is that we are often more open minded to change due to the fact that we constantly remind & challenge ourselves with who we are. I doubt there's a one of us who has a collection that doesn't imagine a freedom from it and our current lives.

[Duffman_Comics]

I’ll take a shot at a possible explanation, if you don’t mind. First off, I’m not a HG collector. I have a lot of high grade books. But I don’t own any slabbed books, nary a one.

I love owning things. I have many types of collectibles. Comics, magazines and books I don’t read. Toys that I don’t play with. Cups that I don’t drink out of. Cards that are boxed away. Coins that I don’t spend. Stamps that I don’t use for mailing letters. The list goes on and on. I may not read or use a lot of objects, but I love owning them. I derive a lot of satisfaction just having them.

Now don’t get me wrong. I enjoy reading comics. I love a good story and good art. Although I’ve read most of the comics I have, there are some I’ve never read. Sometimes just having them is good enough for me.

Were we separated at birth?

Have a lot of comics, some unread - check
Have a lot of toys, still in the packaging - check
Have a lot of coins that will never get spent - check
Have more postage stamps than I could use in three lifetimes - check
Non-sports cards, complete sets, that I have kept from childhood - check
Have a growing library devoted to reference books on the above - check
Buy houses on the basis of whether the collection will fit and have room to grow - check

I'm not a condition nut, but I am a completist. I often have to stop myself from buying a particular title because I know what will happen.

This has been OK for Silver Age Marvels and DC but not so good for the pre 1960 stuff. I find I have to put an arbitrary stop at a particular number and, should an issue pop up "behind" that, it really needs to be a good deal, because I know that that will push my "start" number back further and there we go again.

Having said that, I have found the period 1990 to date a godsend, as I have very few books from this period. Marvel's reboots and to a lesser extent DC's efforts really made it easy to let go of a lot of titles and just consider them done.

Besides, I know I can pick them up later anyway for not a huge a dollar amount.

It also frees my funds up to chase oddball and esoteric titles. Anyone have a Tod Holt, Super Green Beret #2?:rolleyes:

[arexcrooke]

Diggler-I agree. Collect what you like and do not feel you have to explain anything to anybody.

I am a low grade collector because I cannot afford high grade and like to read the comics. I understand having a comic you love and wanting a high grade copy CGCd or PGXd because you love the issue. I would want a reading copy as well.

I have trouble understanding someone collecting high grade without reading copies. I am not picking a fight but I am curious. Is there a HG collector who may want to explain that one?
Seeing as how im a HG collector ill give it a go.
I dont do reading copies of books in the normal sense. Ie VG or so, just to have one, as it doesnt fit into the way I collect. However (in my best Stephen A. Smith voice) the type of books I collect are usually easily found in trades that I can read. I do have "readers" of books too, they are just usually in the VF/NM range. HG enough to look good, but not so HG enough that I slab them.

Make sense?

[arexcrooke]

4-Childish mentality- These are the folks who cant understand why anyone would choose to do something other than what they think is the best. Limited social skills, and an inability to interact with others without seeming demeaning or just plain weird. I think this might have something to do with it. Narrow minded might be a better term. This could also apply to the ubiquitous "they" that deride LG buyers of what they buy and collect. So this is a two way street."
Although you try to be nice at the end there, your whole OP basically reeks of superiority. Your a HG collector and the rest of us are just dealing in rubbish. How do you think that attitude will effect the future collectors? Will a noob want to collect a full run and read it, or a single slabbed book?

Maybe my point was lost on you, wouldnt surprise me. But in my ending, i was saying that both HG and MG/LG collectors can be accused of being narrow minded. It wasnt a slap at anyone, just an observation that narrow-mindedness is not a one way street.

[DrWatson]

Because you are really beginning to piss me off.

Each and every post of yours is heaped with negativity.

Just like the Doc.

If you don't like it here, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
That's a good one. I forget. Are you the pot or the kettle, Soren? You can put me in the same category as MrBedrock anytime you want to as he is three times the person you'll ever be.

At least I learned one thing while I've been here. You are apeshit crazy.

[arexcrooke]

You ask some very good questions here, ill address them in red, and hopefully you wont be like someone else in the hater thread you started who wouldnt read my replies since they were addressing his points, point by point.

People who collect nothing but high grade to put in slabs and hang on the wall are weird to me.Dont think of it as being weird, think of it as being different. What was said about HG (and what are the rest of us to be called?) spending the same as other collectors may be true. I'd easily spend $600 cumulatively on large amounts of comics before I'll buy one single book.I personally would never spend $600 on LG books as that isnt how i derive enjoyement out of the hobby. But see, the large amount have more reading potential, and I guess, silly me, that is still the main value a comic has.Again, your opinion and your POV, which is totally cool. It just doesnt work that way for me Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to say that you HG collectors don't read comics,Love me some trades. Ive got a burgeoning trade collection at the moment and looking to add more when i go to WWChicago in a couple of weeks. most of you probably read more than me, but those 9.8's can't be read, & yet don't loose any value for that lack of readability, they actually gain value.Because the value isnt tied into reading ability. Trades have a ton of reading in them, but arent generaly valuable. It is the condition that causes them to have value. Why does the value increase so much? For one reason only, a belief that they are superior.
The OP said They are superior. But that superiority is tied to grade, nothing else.
"4-Childish mentality- These are the folks who cant understand why anyone would choose to do something other than what they think is the best. Limited social skills, and an inability to interact with others without seeming demeaning or just plain weird. I think this might have something to do with it. Narrow minded might be a better term. This could also apply to the ubiquitous "they" that deride LG buyers of what they buy and collect. So this is a two way street."
Although you try to be nice at the end there, your whole OP basically reeks of superiority. Your a HG collector and the rest of us are just dealing in rubbish. How do you think that attitude will effect the future collectors? Will a noob want to collect a full run and read it, or a single slabbed book? Depends on how that noob thinks. With the way I collect, it didnt take long for me to get into HG books, and a little longer to get into CGC books because of the cost when I first started.
Readable comics being looked at this way cannot be good for the hobby.Why? If it brings in more people to the hobby, expands its group wh enjoy it, why cant it be good? Or better question might be, why is it bad to bring new people into the hobby? This hobby is not a large one, and if new people are coming in, then great!
I buy more and more based on grade. And I lean more and more towards high (9.2+). I feel that that is a bad thing. No, it isnt a bad thing. It sounds as you might be feeling "dirty" (thats a joke) as you have bashed HG, but if you like HG books, then collect them. If you like MG/LG/Beaters/Mags, whatever, buy them and enjoy themThat is just my gut reaction as a "comic collector" influenced by the community and how it evolves . It makes sense for an investor, and as a collector in this post eBay/CGC environment, to only buy HG books, but is it good for the hobby? It makes sense for someone to collect what they enjoy. I think you over value the influence that CGC and HG books have on the market. Like Gandhi said "India is 100,000 villages, not a few lawyers in Delhi and Calcutta" In other words, HG CGC collectors are a small part of the comics community.

It's not just HG collectors that are changing our hobby, it's the whole world, CGC, eBay, the GCD, cover images of individual comics that can be purchased, movies, the dropping dollar...Such is the nature of anything. It evolves and changes

The resulting trends I see are a lack of interest in modern age books, even though the stories and often times the art, are better.Without trades, I would not even know who Brubaker, Epting, Mahnke, Van Schiver were. Moderns as individual issue do nothing for me. But boy does i love me a trade #woohoo#

A group movement towards purchasing books based on the cover alone.Modern Variants? If so, i have no clue. Older books? I bought a Spectre 3 in 9.6 just because of the cover. Well, that and I love the Spectre

An increase of conversation about comics value and sales results, & a subsequent decrease in conversation about the stories. I believe that has always been a part of the hobby. If you ever get a chance to go to a show, do so. You will see the commerce side of it, but you will also be astounded and the love for the stories, art, artists, history and etc. that you will hear.

I don't know if this has happened yet but I feel that many collectors will begin want to collect original art.Maybe yes, maybe no. Ive bought some art and am going to be buying a few pieces of Doug Mahnke art from the Under the Hood arc. But for some it does nothing.

A lot more scammers.Bro, they have been around. Ebay and the internet brings out them more.

A lot more speculators.Maybe, maybe not. But if speculators bring buzz to the hobby, and more people get in... Also, speculators generally get burned and dont come back after dumping, so...

More affordable copies being spread around. I would love more affordable copies of the books I collect to be spread around.

I just don't know what to think anymore. I know that the HG collectors seem to flaunt books based on value. I've got a part of that type of collector in me and sometimes rebel against it. I think the "flaunt based on value" is the way you see it.
IN my experience, HG collectors show off their books because they ar proud of them. Not because it is a dick measuring contest, (though to be fair for some it is) I show off my books not because of how much I paid for them, but because I want to share my joy with having them with someone who will appreciate what those books are.

I'll end with this statement. I have a New Mutants full run that I bought as I was reading it and a NM #1 CGC 9.8. I'd much sooner part with that slabbed book than that full run or even half that run. Why? Because I can read that run and pass it along one day as a full run to a buyer who wants to read them. How do you feel about that?
How about them apples?

[arexcrooke]

That's a good one. I forget. Are you the pot or the kettle, Soren? You can put me in the same category as MrBedrock anytime you want to as he is three times the person you'll ever be.

At least I learned one thing while I've been here. You are apeshit crazy.
This reminds me of something that I need to do a little later today Doc. I think you know what it is too ;)

[Red Hook]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Hook http://www.comicscorral.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif

(http://www.comicscorral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=39090#post39090)
I've never bought the concept of the Central Valley as a valid pedigree. Nice collection. Just not a pedigree. Here are the criteria to consider:

For a collection to be considered a pedigree, it must first meet certain requirements:

1. It must all come from one original owner who bought them off the newsstand.

2. They must be of superior quality.

3. The collection should have a large accumulation of books (i.e. Mile High, Pacific Coast) or a smaller accumulation of very important books (i.e. Denver, Allentown).

4. Another important factor is existing market acceptance of a collection as a pedigree.



The only requirement that doesn't apply to the Central Valleys is #3 (if you don't think Batman 2, Superman 4, Action 24 etc. are keys). The collection had a small amount of DC superhero (maybe 50 or so), a few other publishers (Fantastic 3, Planet 4), and a lot of newspaper reprint titles. But the collection was very special in that a very high proportion of the books were of better quality than even the Mile Highs.

But folks around here probably aren't interested in any of that kind of info. It doesn't seem to fit with the general spirit of this comic forum.Actually Richard, the collection does not qualify under several other points. There is no evidence at all of an "original owner". No evidence at all. The market never had a chance to accept them as a pedigree before they were declared as such and launched in an aggressive marketing campaign. Hardly any of the books are tops in the census.

Again, they are nice books. A very nice collection. Just not a pedigree. Why is it so important to you for it to be declared a pedigree....especially when it is clearly not one?

[arexcrooke]

5. I dislike people who are that anal in general. Doesn't have to be comic related. I also think "OCD" is just an excuse - "don't blame me, I have OCD, I can't help it". Yes, you can. Again, doesn't have to be comic related, but of course both of these spill over to comics.

Speculators are a whole different story... but we're talking about collectors here. (Which makes me think the two points in #2 are apples and oranges unless qualified better).
No, i dont try and pawn off my collecting style on my OCD. I dont use it as an excuse, but my midset (and everyone has OCD's it is all just a matter of degree) leads me to be more anal about condition than others.

Stu, explain what you mean in your last part about my two points in #2.#popcorn#

[arexcrooke]

Well, it probably doesn't help folk's view of HG collectors when you resort to name calling. #dunno# An eye for an eye causing the whole world to go blind.

To answer your question though, with regard to Sillyships, it's simply because he's young. Everything tends to be more black & white, us vs. them when you are younger. SS says he is 39.

I will say that I think there are many collectors and dealers who don't see anything positive with regard to CGC and PGX and the direction the hobby seems to have taken since their inception. Namely, what I think is viewed as artificially bloated prices realized for HG comics based on slight, some might argue imperceptible, differences between 9.4, 9.6, & 9.8 graded comics. And that these slight differences, based on the judgements of a handful of people, don't justify the Richter magnitude-like differences in pricing.

I'm personally of the opinion that you should collect how you want to collect. I don't hate high grade collectors or low grade collectors, or almost anyone for that matter. If you have the disposable income to spend, you should be able to buy what you like without getting raked over the coals about it.

However, I will also say that I don't think highest graded copy necessarily means best copy. I've seen some 9.4 & 9.6 copies of books with some pretty fugly miswraps.Agree with you on this. Not all 9.x are the same. Much like all 4.0s arent the same I find it hard to understand why someone would spend 2 or 3 times guide for those books, when they could have a nicely centered 9.2 or even 9.0 copy with white pages for significantly less. I would rather have a 9.4 rather than a 9.0due to the presence of fewer flaws on the book. When it gets to be a number chasing game, that's where I'm confused. Nik had 2 Detective 431s. One a 9.4, one a 9.6 Don Rosa. I would have bought the 9.6 because it is higher grade than the 9.4 (and there is a diffrence folks) but the 9.6 had a slight back-front miswrap. So i bought the lower graded 9.4 with a perfect wrap. Danny would routinely sell/trade 9.8 X-Men if he didnt think the book was good enough. That's where I think it's more about acquiring an object than collecting comics. But, to each his own.Point taken
see comments in red

[MrBedrock]

Actually Richard, the collection does not qualify under several other points. There is no evidence at all of an "original owner". No evidence at all. The market never had a chance to accept them as a pedigree before they were declared as such and launched in an aggressive marketing campaign. Hardly any of the books are tops in the census.

Again, they are nice books. A very nice collection. Just not a pedigree. Why is it so important to you for it to be declared a pedigree....especially when it is clearly not one?
Actually, Red, all of the books came from one seller who sold them around shops in Northern California. Brian reunited the books by tracking and buying them from shop to shop. To think otherwise is to 1)call Brian Peetes a liar and 2)prove that you haven't seen them all in one place (it is obvious that they all came from one source). As for the market having a chance to determine their worthiness as a pedigree - well it obviously has, they are denoted as such on the CGC labels. And accepted as such by many (probably most) high grade golden age collectors. They will also be included in the Pedigree Book due in the fall.

As to your last question, well why is it so important to you that they are not a pedigree? I do own five Central Valley books. Four of them I paid straight guide price for, so their pedigree status has no bearing on their value. They are not top census nor would they go for any more or less at auction if they were not given pedigree status. As for the fifth Central Valley, that is the book I posted above (Single Series 20). I told Brian when I first saw it (way before the idea of the Central Valleys being given a pedigree ever came about) that if he ever sold it I would pay him whatever he wanted for it. At the time that he did decide to sell, guide was $1500. I paid him $11,000 for it and I have no intention of ever selling it. So I have no financial stake there either. Your implication is that I am selling the pedigree status of this collection because I stand to lose money were that status removed. In fact, I have nothing to gain or lose either way.
So again I ask you, why do you have a beef with the pedigree status of this collection?

[MrBedrock]

Because you are really beginning to piss me off.

Each and every post of yours is heaped with negativity.

Just like the Doc.

If you don't like it here, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Ah, finally I get to respond to this.

You are a peach, CG.
I think I'll stick around for a while.
There seem to be a lot of good ant piles to stir up.
(And, like stupidman Stu, I love it when dumbasses are so easy to piss off)

[arexcrooke]

Ah, finally I get to respond to this.

You are a peach, CG.
I think I'll stick around for a while.
There seem to be a lot of good ant piles to stir up.
(And, like stupidman Stu, I love it when dumbasses are so easy to piss off)
#cheers#

[alecholland]

39? Really? Well, ok, I was waaaay off on that one. I think I might have to see a driver's license or something.

I know there are a lot of CGC board members, like you, Nik, Danny, and many other collectors who consider the way the book looks in addition to the assigned grade. That's the way I am as well. I don't buy too many 9.4+ books though partly because I do crack almost all of the graded books I buy so I can read them. I don't feel right about cracking anything over a 9.0/9.2.

Based on your comments, let me ask you this Arex. Don't you think things like miswraps, printers creases, and bindery tears should be taken into account a little more in the grading system? To me, part of the grade should include simply the aesthetics of the book. I know it's a manufacturing flaw, but I still think at a certain grade, perhaps 9.4 or better, those types of things should be considered so that only the truly best examples are left. I just think it's weird that a book with a couple, small non-color breaking spine stresses could possibly get a lower grade than a book with say, a 4" printers crease going through a characters head on the cover.

Thanks for your comments by the way.

[Davenport]

I'm enjoying reading this thread. Good stuff.:)

There is one aspect of HG slab collecting I've been curious about. This: How do you define "high grade"?

Is it the label number?
Is it the current state of the paper?
Does 3 pro-grader opinions do it for you?
Is the only criteria the absense of defects and/or foreign material?

(I ask because personally, the way encapsulating comics has evolved, I don't "get it" the way most seem to. :confused: )

With HG labels I might be looking a truly rare survivor of time and circumstance or a book that had it's cover and folios splayed across a workbench last month. Both are eligible for CGC "high grade" labeling, but worlds apart in the emotional response department. Being indistinguishable label-wise my response to HG has flatlined over the past few years.

So HG collectors, does "vintage" or "integrity" or "as published" or "unmanipulated" enter into the high grade equation? Or is it strictly a "paper condition" or "label number" thing?

[MrBedrock]

I just think it's weird that a book with a couple, small non-color breaking spine stresses could possibly get a lower grade than a book with say, a 4" printers crease going through a characters head on the cover.

I definitely agree with this Alec.
But there are many anamolies in the grading system. Why is a structurally perfect book with a faded cover still graded high, while another copy also structurally perfect with blinding colors but a small water stain at the bottom of the back cover graded low?
There are issues with date stamps, mis-wraps, staple placement etc. etc. etc. Collectors each have their pet peeves as far as what they accept and won't accept in certain grades. CGC seems to have found a comfortable middle ground to work in. And, as collectors, we need to be aware of how our personal grading standards fit with theirs. Then the slab becomes another guide to use in the purchase decision.

[MrBedrock]

So HG collectors, does "vintage" or "integrity" or "as published" or "unmanipulated" enter into the high grade equation? Or is it strictly a "paper condition" or "label number" thing?
I can only say that pressing doesn't bother me. In my opinion it, in no way, takes away from the "integrity" of the book, either structurally or in the emotional sense.

[arexcrooke]

39? Really? Well, ok, I was waaaay off on that one. I think I might have to see a driver's license or something.

I know there are a lot of CGC board members, like you, Nik, Danny, and many other collectors who consider the way the book looks in addition to the assigned grade. That's the way I am as well. I don't buy too many 9.4+ books though partly because I do crack almost all of the graded books I buy so I can read them. I don't feel right about cracking anything over a 9.0/9.2.

Based on your comments, let me ask you this Arex. Don't you think things like miswraps, printers creases, and bindery tears should be taken into account a little more in the grading system? To me, part of the grade should include simply the aesthetics of the book. I know it's a manufacturing flaw, but I still think at a certain grade, perhaps 9.4 or better, those types of things should be considered so that only the truly best examples are left. I just think it's weird that a book with a couple, small non-color breaking spine stresses could possibly get a lower grade than a book with say, a 4" printers crease going through a characters head on the cover.

Thanks for your comments by the way.
Yes and no. Is that clear enough for you #woohoo#
I can see that grading a book with a printers crease and not treating it as a defect as plausible. The book came off the press that way. It isnt a handling/wear defect. So, i guess, if you extrapolate that to the end, that a book is mint when it comes off the press and only after wear occurs does it begin its desent down the grading scale.

Miswrap goes the same. Page quality is a little different perhaps.

I know that CGC doesnt allow for those things in the UHG (uber high grade) but i dont play up there.

I do know that many people dont just look at the label. I dont like printers creases, miswraps, or date-stamps. If I see a book with those, i have to ask myself how much do I want the book, how hard is it to find another one...
So while CGC might not down grade for it, it does affect the value of the book regardless of the technical grade.

[DrWatson]

I'm enjoying reading this thread. Good stuff.:)

There is one aspect of HG slab collecting I've been curious about. This: How do you define "high grade"?

Is it the label number?
Is it the current state of the paper?
Does 3 pro-grader opinions do it for you?
Is the only criteria the absense of defects and/or foreign material?

(I ask because personally, the way encapsulating comics has evolved, I don't "get it" the way most seem to. :confused: )

With HG labels I might be looking a truly rare survivor of time and circumstance or a book that had it's cover and folios splayed across a workbench last month. Both are eligible for CGC "high grade" labeling, but worlds apart in the emotional response department. Being indistinguishable label-wise my response to HG has flatlined over the past few years.

So HG collectors, does "vintage" or "integrity" or "as published" or "unmanipulated" enter into the high grade equation? Or is it strictly a "paper condition" or "label number" thing?
Very clever post. Jabs in all the right places without being direct.

At any rate, I really don't see any difference in the two books in your example. Just because a book has taken apart and then put back together doesn't mean that it has suddenly become a red headed step child and nor should it be treated that way. It should not be stigmatized in any way i.e. a Gallery of Disclosure. As far as I am concerned, this is not restoration and nor I advocate selling restored books as being unrestored either. However, there is more to it than just the number and the page quality. That being said, I am a page quality freak. Eye appeal has a lot to do with it, especially when you move into Golden Age books.

[Red Hook]

Actually, Red, all of the books came from one seller who sold them around shops in Northern California. Brian reunited the books by tracking and buying them from shop to shop. To think otherwise is to 1)call Brian Peetes a liar and 2)prove that you haven't seen them all in one place (it is obvious that they all came from one source). As for the market having a chance to determine their worthiness as a pedigree - well it obviously has, they are denoted as such on the CGC labels. And accepted as such by many (probably most) high grade golden age collectors. They will also be included in the Pedigree Book due in the fall.

As to your last question, well why is it so important to you that they are not a pedigree? I do own five Central Valley books. Four of them I paid straight guide price for, so their pedigree status has no bearing on their value. They are not top census nor would they go for any more or less at auction if they were not given pedigree status. As for the fifth Central Valley, that is the book I posted above (Single Series 20). I told Brian when I first saw it (way before the idea of the Central Valleys being given a pedigree ever came about) that if he ever sold it I would pay him whatever he wanted for it. At the time that he did decide to sell, guide was $1500. I paid him $11,000 for it and I have no intention of ever selling it. So I have no financial stake there either. Your implication is that I am selling the pedigree status of this collection because I stand to lose money were that status removed. In fact, I have nothing to gain or lose either way.
So again I ask you, why do you have a beef with the pedigree status of this collection?

Books coming from one seller is completely different than books coming from an original owner. Brian never claimed to have been the original owner of the books, correct? He'd have to be a lot older than he is to be. I simply ask... "Who was the original owner", if there even was one. These easily could have been a group of books collected from various dealers and sources over the years. That's not a pedigree. It's a collection.

These books should receive the same status as the Dallas Stephenson "collection". DS "collected" a great group of books, but they never got pedigree status because DS was not the original owner. These books may have been purchased of the newstands by many different collectors and gathered together years later. That's still a collection, not a pedigree.

This isn't rocket science. What's so difficult to understand about this collection failing to meet most of the important qualifications of a recognized "pedigree" collection? Be happy with the fact that you have some great looking books!

BTW...since when would you equate CGC - a for-profit company - with "the market"? Aren't you and I and other dealers and collectors, "the market"? The decision to label this a pedigree was not in the best interests of the hobby. It blurs the lines between pedigrees and collections for the sake of hype and marketing.

[Red Hook]

Actually, Red, all of the books came from one seller who sold them around shops in Northern California. Brian reunited the books by tracking and buying them from shop to shop.

Also, that is in direct conflict with the Mickey Spillane type story in the original press release about the collection which Doc removed... here it is again...


"I was given the number of a motel in Grass Valley, and immediately placed a call to the individual's room at the motel. After a short conversation in which I verified the type and quality of the books, I made the one hour drive to Grass Valley from my location in Sacramento. Finding the motel was easy, but seeing the books for the first time was breathtaking."
Brian wasn't prepared for what he saw. Before him, spread out over the entire bed, where Golden Age comics whiter and fresher than anything he had ever witnessed. Four Color, Batman, Superman, Tarzan, Tip Top, Famous Funnies...all with the most amazing colors, almost glowing.

His excitement and enthusiasm were rewarded with access to the rest of the collection.

"He pulled a canvas bag out of a foot locker, and spilled the contents onto the one corner of the bed that was not covered with comics. The largest pile of gold coins I had ever seen, and right in the middle of all those coins a loaded handgun! As he picked the gun up he stated, 'and I keep this with me to keep people from messing with me.' Point taken."


So which version is the truth? Just asking.

[Burntboy]

Actually, Red, all of the books came from one seller who sold them around shops in Northern California. Brian reunited the books by tracking and buying them from shop to shop. To think otherwise is to 1)call Brian Peetes a liar and 2)prove that you haven't seen them all in one place (it is obvious that they all came from one source). As for the market having a chance to determine their worthiness as a pedigree - well it obviously has, they are denoted as such on the CGC labels. And accepted as such by many (probably most) high grade golden age collectors. They will also be included in the Pedigree Book due in the fall.

As to your last question, well why is it so important to you that they are not a pedigree? I do own five Central Valley books. Four of them I paid straight guide price for, so their pedigree status has no bearing on their value. They are not top census nor would they go for any more or less at auction if they were not given pedigree status. As for the fifth Central Valley, that is the book I posted above (Single Series 20). I told Brian when I first saw it (way before the idea of the Central Valleys being given a pedigree ever came about) that if he ever sold it I would pay him whatever he wanted for it. At the time that he did decide to sell, guide was $1500. I paid him $11,000 for it and I have no intention of ever selling it. So I have no financial stake there either. Your implication is that I am selling the pedigree status of this collection because I stand to lose money were that status removed. In fact, I have nothing to gain or lose either way.
So again I ask you, why do you have a beef with the pedigree status of this collection?

Richard; i had the opportunity to see a few of the Central Valley books at last years Javits convention in NYC. Steve Borock took me over to Brian's booth and pulled a few copies off the shelf, opened them up and showed me the pages.

i have to say that i was most impressed by the page quality and the overall superior condition of the examples. No question as to the very high quality.

BUT, i 've had the same issues as Red on the Pedigree designation from the beginning. there were a few issues that i had a problem with;

1. why there are some beautiful "Key" books, i believe the bulk of the collection contained an inordinate number of Mutt and Jeff's or some such type books. and while these are likely very rare in the condition they are in, i doubt may would consider them as "Key" books.

2. the collection is, i believe one of the smallest GA Pedigrees?? A few hundred books or so??

3. the back story was truly weird. if i'm not mistaken, a bunch of these were sold in a hotel room from a mystery man who was armed?? as such, the original provenance has never been established. and while the uniform condition suggests they may have been purchased by a single OO at one time, i can't recall that it has ever been confirmed.

4. i'm not on board with the "Market acceptance" thing - I'll take CGC's declaration of a new Pedigree as the final word (as long as it meets criteria which has been mostly accepted up to this point).

lastly, (i'll admit i haven't read the thread which preceded this one), but feel the angst created here was, in part, the result of your style in the initial couple of posts. (not that there's anything wrong with that.........:roll: )

Harry.

Oh, and hi Red...#allhailme#

[Red Hook]

Hi Harry! Feel free to check out the special Sid's Luncheonette thread and add anything you want to. It's dedicated 100% to your collection!

And I hope Richard understands this is purely an intellectual discussion regarding and honest disagreement over this particular group of books. I think the stricter the standards are, the better the hobby is, and the more value maintained by true pedigrees. And there are enough holes in the story of how these books came to market, to drive a fleet of Lancashire lorries through.

And as a disclaimer I will state that I've never considered my own collecting interest (Green Rivers) to be one of the top SA pedigrees, and my entire holding is probably of less value than some of the top Central Valley books. I like those Central Valleys. I just think that the decision making "power" should be spread out among a wide range of collectors and dealers throughout the hobby and not concentrated in a building in Sarasota. Nothing personal, but for a for-profit company to take it upon themselves to be the sole arbiter on matters such as these does not bode well for the hobby.

Just my opinion. #oldie#

[MrBedrock]

Books coming from one seller is completely different than books coming from an original owner. Brian never claimed to have been the original owner of the books, correct? He'd have to be a lot older than he is to be. I simply ask... "Who was the original owner", if there even was one. These easily could have been a group of books collected from various dealers and sources over the years. That's not a pedigree. It's a collection.

These books should receive the same status as the Dallas Stephenson "collection". DS "collected" a great group of books, but they never got pedigree status because DS was not the original owner. These books may have been purchased of the newstands by many different collectors and gathered together years later. That's still a collection, not a pedigree.

This isn't rocket science. What's so difficult to understand about this collection failing to meet most of the important qualifications of a recognized "pedigree" collection? Be happy with the fact that you have some great looking books!

BTW...since when would you equate CGC - a for-profit company - with "the market"? Aren't you and I and other dealers and collectors, "the market"? The decision to label this a pedigree was not in the best interests of the hobby. It blurs the lines between pedigrees and collections for the sake of hype and marketing.
Red, a single original owner sold the books to a series of shops. Brian got wind of the books and went to the various shops and bought all that he could find. They are obviously not a collection that was assembled by a collector and then sold into market any more than the early "second hand" Mile Highs were part of an assembled collection by Edgar Church.
If you had seen the books pre-slabbing you would realize that they were uniform grade, page quality and ink reflectivity - consistant with an original owner collection of books.

"BTW...since when would you equate CGC - a for-profit company - with "the market"? Aren't you and I and other dealers and collectors, "the market"?" - I don't equate CGC with the market. I do believe that CGC listens to the market and makes decisions accordingly. You I and other collectors are the market. Of that group, only you don't feel that the Central Valleys should not be a pedigree. Are you saying you are better than everyone else?

"Be happy with the fact that you have some great looking books!" - No, I'll be happy with the fact that I know they are from a specific collection with a history and that there are other books from the same collection with the same history. I feel about these books much the same as you feel about the Green Rivers. They are exactly what I am looking for when i am seeking out golden age.

[Red Hook]

So, again, what's with this story about the hotel room? What is that? Is that a made up story just to juice things up a little? Again, that's in direct conflict with the very different story that you're presenting.

No one's arguing with the nice quality of the books. There just hasn't been nearly enough proof presented to the public that this deserves to be a pedigree. I'd think we need more than anecdotal evidence.

So you're saying that Brian gathered these books together from various sources after "getting wind" (from who - the guy with the gun?). Where did "the guy with the gun" get them?

I'm confused. I'm still seeing "collection" here, not "pedigree".

[jaydeebee]

I posted this in the other thread but am afraid that it might get lost. With stoopidshits or whatever his names rant on HG collectors got me wondering why are we so hated.
So, here is my post.
Comments, smart-assed, uninformed, obnoxious, or whatever are welcome.

I reject the notion that high grade collectors are hated. Is your premise based on one member's unfortunate choice of words?

Perhaps he does "hate" HG collectors. But I personally have no animosity for any collector. That doesn't mean I necessarily understand why someone collects what they collect, but they might find my method of collecting odd.

Do I envy those collections? Perhaps.

Do I hate you for collecting them? No.

Individuals not withstanding, I don't believe the Corral is rife with hatred for anyone and there is the slightest hint of an accusation in the thread title.

[Davenport]

Very clever post. Jabs in all the right places without being direct.

At any rate, I really don't see any difference in the two books in your example. Just because a book has taken apart and then put back together doesn't mean that it has suddenly become a red headed step child and nor should it be treated that way. It should not be stigmatized in any way i.e. a Gallery of Disclosure. As far as I am concerned, this is not restoration and nor I advocate selling restored books as being unrestored either. However, there is more to it than just the number and the page quality. That being said, I am a page quality freak. Eye appeal has a lot to do with it, especially when you move into Golden Age books.
I wasn't trying to be clever. Or make jabs. And thanks for your response (it helps me learn how others see things).

For me the HG puzzle is different. Say there were two CGC'd books, both with the same HG blue label number, with photo-descriptions. One had photos of it being rediscovered in some a long forgotten basement box, and the other had work-in-progress photos of it disassembled in a Paper Mechanic's studio. I would get jazzed about the rediscovered survivor, the refurbished book...not so much.

I may be wrong. But I always assumed Overstreet "high grade" included value of "how it stayed that way" after being distributed. Comics being disposable, cheap pop-culture items and all. Survivors were miraculous, with the odds stacked highly against them exisiting.

Then came encapsulation (which I assumed reflected Overstreet). As encapsulation evolved the "how they stayed that way" values seemed to slowly disappear (as CGC grading criteria slowly became known through messageboards).

And not just from pressing. (imho "pressing" has become the equivalent of "race", a topic used to halt reasonable discussions) A popped staple could become "high grade" with careful paper-tucking, entire assemblies could be realigned and tightened, and so on.
Basically now you can manipulate "vintage" aspects any way you choose, as long as foreign materials aren't introduced. Almost to the point where miraculous-surviving as zero relationship to "grade".

[MrBedrock]

Richard; i had the opportunity to see a few of the Central Valley books at last years Javits convention in NYC. Steve Borock took me over to Brian's booth and pulled a few copies off the shelf, opened them up and showed me the pages.

i have to say that i was most impressed by the page quality and the overall superior condition of the examples. No question as to the very high quality.

BUT, i 've had the same issues as Red on the Pedigree designation from the beginning. there were a few issues that i had a problem with;

1. why there are some beautiful "Key" books, i believe the bulk of the collection contained an inordinate number of Mutt and Jeff's or some such type books. and while these are likely very rare in the condition they are in, i doubt may would consider them as "Key" books.

2. the collection is, i believe one of the smallest GA Pedigrees?? A few hundred books or so??

3. the back story was truly weird. if i'm not mistaken, a bunch of these were sold in a hotel room from a mystery man who was armed?? as such, the original provenance has never been established. and while the uniform condition suggests they may have been purchased by a single OO at one time, i can't recall that it has ever been confirmed.

4. i'm not on board with the "Market acceptance" thing - I'll take CGC's declaration of a new Pedigree as the final word (as long as it meets criteria which has been mostly accepted up to this point).

lastly, (i'll admit i haven't read the thread which preceded this one), but feel the angst created here was, in part, the result of your style in the initial couple of posts. (not that there's anything wrong with that.........:roll: )

Harry.

Oh, and hi Red...#allhailme#

Hi Harry. Good points, all of them. It seems from both your and Red's posts that the primary concern with the pedigree status of this collection is with the marketing of the books. Was it artificially manipulated to increase the salability of an otherwise nice collection? I really don't think so. The collection is small, it does have relatively few of what we now would consider keys. (But if you check the first Overstreet from 1970 all the most expensive books at that time -keys- that weren't superhero are represented) How they were purchased would have no bearing on their pedigree. And the golden age marketplace has accepted them as a pedigree.
Brian was going to sell them for a bunch of money anyway, that was why he got them slabbed. I promise you they would have sold for a lot of money whether they said Central Valley on them or not. CGC got them and felt, based on whatever criteria they used, that the books were worthy of pedigree status. So is the problem with CGC making that call? If they hadn't, we (golden age collectors) would still be calling them something - The A-1 books, Brians collection, those killer odd-ball early golden age books out of Northern California. I think Central Valley works just fine.

[oxbladder]

Very clever post. Jabs in all the right places without being direct.

At any rate, I really don't see any difference in the two books in your example. Just because a book has taken apart and then put back together doesn't mean that it has suddenly become a red headed step child and nor should it be treated that way. It should not be stigmatized in any way i.e. a Gallery of Disclosure. As far as I am concerned, this is not restoration and nor I advocate selling restored books as being unrestored either. However, there is more to it than just the number and the page quality. That being said, I am a page quality freak. Eye appeal has a lot to do with it, especially when you move into Golden Age books.

Wow ... I am totally shocked. Two years ago disassembling was considered restoration and I don't care who does it but the original integrity has been compromised and i don't know how the heck one could not consider it restoration. How are you to know that the book was EVER in the condition it was manipulated into? It existed in one condition but now it isn't so how could it not be restoration?

Leaving that aside though you have to understand that some people, could even be a majority that would believe this to be restoration so do you not think that people are entitled to know the full history of a book regardless of what you believe is restoration, etc? I mean there is a whole double standard out there where CGC graded or big name dealers can get away with pawning off books that have been worked on and people are okay with this but if somebody does it to books on ebay or in the "common" market the forums erupt in angry witch-hunts. That is what I just don't get about these opinions it is like as soon as a book is already HG or CGC changes the rules to the benefit of the market people's once firmly held opinions on resto die. There is conflict though because I believe they sense that the common market is a very different beast and in actuality their own beliefs far more coincide with us commoners.

Its called cognitive dissonance and frankly it is killing the market maybe not in the eyes of those complicit in it but in so many other's eyes it is. People that have been in the hobby for years are getting out and once honest respected sellers are losing cash because they won't play the current games because the CGC crowd has managed to convince people trust no one ... even if you can touch the books.

I am sorry to pick on you but I have such a hard time trying to understand such opinions. Certainly I don't know you or what you are like so please don't take this as a personal attack I just don't understand the thinking and reasoning behind it. So lets just say I disagree with this viewpoint. I know you are not alone in this thinking too. I don' t know if I will ever understand this train of thought.

[DrWatson]

I wasn't trying to be clever. Or make jabs. And thanks for your response (it helps me learn how others see things).

For me the HG puzzle is different. Say there were two CGC'd books, both with the same HG blue label number, with photo-descriptions. One had photos of it being rediscovered in some a long forgotten basement box, and the other had work-in-progress photos of it disassembled in a Paper Mechanic's studio. I would get jazzed about the rediscovered survivor, the refurbished book...not so much.

I may be wrong. But I always assumed Overstreet "high grade" included value of "how it stayed that way" after being distributed. Comics being disposable, cheap pop-culture items and all. Survivors were miraculous, with the odds stacked highly against them exisiting.

Then came encapusaltion (which I assumed reflected Overstreet). As encapsulation evolved the "how they stayed that way" values seemed to slowly disappear (as CGC grading criteria slowly became known through messageboards).

And not just from pressing. (imho "pressing" has become the equivalent of "race", a topic used to halt reasonable discussions) A popped staple could become "high grade" with careful paper-tucking, entire assemblies could be realigned and tightened, and so on.
Basically now you can manipulate "vintage" aspects any way you choose, as long as foreign materials aren't introduced. Almost to the point where miraculous-surviving as zero relationship to "grade".
We're not that much different. You are enamored with the history of a particular book. The fact that it survived in a given state over the years is what gives it its "collectibility" as far as you are concerned. I am the same way with books that you use in your example. I don't care if they have been pressed. Apply the same thought process to people. Why would one person be any more or less of a friend because they have been unfortunate enough to experience some type of hardship during the course of their life than another person who has not? I know it's a stretch, as povertyrow would point out, "People are not comic books." It surprises me that you aren't a pedigree collector. It would seem to me that those types of books would be right up your alley. Actually, that brings out another point. I like Northlands because of the story associated with the collection, but I also like them for their scarcity. There is only one Northland X-Men #54.

[DrWatson]

Wow ... I am totally shocked. Two years ago disassembling was considered restoration and I don't care who does it but the original integrity has been compromised and i don't know how the heck one could not consider it restoration. How are you to know that the book was EVER in the condition it was manipulated into? It existed in one condition but now it isn't so how could it not be restoration?

Leaving that aside though you have to understand that some people, could even be a majority that would believe this to be restoration so do you not think that people are entitled to know the full history of a book regardless of what you believe is restoration, etc? I mean there is a whole double standard out there where CGC graded or big name dealers can get away with pawning off books that have been worked on and people are okay with this but if somebody does it to books on ebay or in the "common" market the forums erupt in angry witch-hunts. That is what I just don't get about these opinions it is like as soon as a book is already HG or CGC changes the rules to the benefit of the market people's once firmly held opinions on resto die. There is conflict though because I believe they sense that the common market is a very different beast and in actuality their own beliefs far more coincide with us commoners.

Its called cognitive dissonance and frankly it is killing the market maybe not in the eyes of those complicit in it but in so many other's eyes it is. People that have been in the hobby for years are getting out and once honest respected sellers are losing cash because they won't play the current games because the CGC crowd has managed to convince people trust no one ... even if you can touch the books.

I am sorry to pick on you but I have such a hard time trying to understand such opinions. Certainly I don't know you or what you are like so please don't take this as a personal attack I just don't understand the thinking and reasoning behind it. So lets just say I disagree with this viewpoint. I know you are not alone in this thinking too. I don' t know if I will ever understand this train of thought.
So, how many books have you submitted to CGC? #popcorn#

[Red Hook]

Come on Doc... address his points. He's making some good ones! #oldie#

[DrWatson]

What's there to address? I won't change his mind. It's two different schools of thinking. If we can't get folks to agree on religion then how will they ever agree on comic books?

[Red Hook]

I think you're supposed to have an intelligent debate based on what you see as the facts, and then let the unwashed masses decide for themselves. :p

I think the general awareness of collectors gets raised whoever "wins" a debate, as long as it doesn't devolve into personal insult. Something I have always striven to abide by.

:roll:

[fulltimer56]

Why are HG collectors hated??

I don't know about being hated but when I buy a comic for my collection, I always go for the highest grade I can get for my money!! Sometimes I get NM and sometimes I get GOOD. Take a chill pill, folks!

Linda

[stupidman]

You can put me in the same category as MrBedrock anytime you want to as he is three times the person you'll ever be.


Yes, ol' Cement Head is at least three times the asshole Soren is - don't sell Dick short!

Stu the Dumbass Pizzer Offer

[Davenport]

We're not that much different. You are enamored with the history of a particular book. The fact that it survived in a given state over the years is what gives it its "collectibility" as far as you are concerned. I am the same way with books that you use in your example. I don't care if they have been pressed. Apply the same thought process to people. Why would one person be any more or less of a friend because they have been unfortunate enough to experience some type of hardship during the course of their life than another person who has not? I know it's a stretch, as povertyrow would point out, "People are not comic books." It surprises me that you aren't a pedigree collector. It would seem to me that those types of books would be right up your alley. Actually, that brings out another point. I like Northlands because of the story associated with the collection, but I also like them for their scarcity. There is only one Northland X-Men #54.
If the Hobby is confusing, Pedigrees are even more so. In this hobby the top Paper Mechanic is also a top Pedigree Expert and author.

And speaking of Northlands...this is the same Pedigree Expert who tweaked a Hulk Annual and "forgot" it was a Northland. I remember PMing Redhook that the HG was the Northland...same book, new grade. Took a while, but finally confirmed that yes it was, along with the "woops".

Maybe so, and be that as it may, but it struck me as "masking" the book's history for marketing purposes.

Anyway, Pedigrees may begin with History, but quickly morph into Marketing Tactic. If Pedigree doesn't enhance marketing it seems some folks who love them so would drop Pedigree like a hot rock to increase $$$. Just sayin'.

[Burntboy]

Hi Harry. Good points, all of them. It seems from both your and Red's posts that the primary concern with the pedigree status of this collection is with the marketing of the books. Was it artificially manipulated to increase the salability of an otherwise nice collection? I really don't think so. The collection is small, it does have relatively few of what we now would consider keys. (But if you check the first Overstreet from 1970 all the most expensive books at that time -keys- that weren't superhero are represented) How they were purchased would have no bearing on their pedigree. And the golden age marketplace has accepted them as a pedigree.
Brian was going to sell them for a bunch of money anyway, that was why he got them slabbed. I promise you they would have sold for a lot of money whether they said Central Valley on them or not. CGC got them and felt, based on whatever criteria they used, that the books were worthy of pedigree status. So is the problem with CGC making that call? If they hadn't, we (golden age collectors) would still be calling them something - The A-1 books, Brians collection, those killer odd-ball early golden age books out of Northern California. I think Central Valley works just fine.

Richard; i hear you and completely agree that the GA collectors would love those books with or without a name attached.

I'm not even addressing the issue of whether calling it a Pedigree helped in the sales or not - don't really care about that.

My issues were simple; Too small, not enough "Keys" and No establishment of the Provenance...(It's simply unknown if they were originally purchased by a single owner or cobbled together by a collector).

When Matt's (and others) book comes out finally, I'm going to bet that this may be the only "Pedigree" that cannot trace the books back to an original owner.

arguments can be made about size and the number of "Keys", but i always thought of Provenance as one of the "Gotta-Haves" for Pedigree designation.

and thanks for taking my comments as an opinion and not a criticism...#oldie#

[MrBedrock]

Wow ... I am totally shocked. Two years ago disassembling was considered restoration and I don't care who does it but the original integrity has been compromised and i don't know how the heck one could not consider it restoration. How are you to know that the book was EVER in the condition it was manipulated into? It existed in one condition but now it isn't so how could it not be restoration?

Leaving that aside though you have to understand that some people, could even be a majority that would believe this to be restoration so do you not think that people are entitled to know the full history of a book regardless of what you believe is restoration, etc? I mean there is a whole double standard out there where CGC graded or big name dealers can get away with pawning off books that have been worked on and people are okay with this but if somebody does it to books on ebay or in the "common" market the forums erupt in angry witch-hunts. That is what I just don't get about these opinions it is like as soon as a book is already HG or CGC changes the rules to the benefit of the market people's once firmly held opinions on resto die. There is conflict though because I believe they sense that the common market is a very different beast and in actuality their own beliefs far more coincide with us commoners.

Its called cognitive dissonance and frankly it is killing the market maybe not in the eyes of those complicit in it but in so many other's eyes it is. People that have been in the hobby for years are getting out and once honest respected sellers are losing cash because they won't play the current games because the CGC crowd has managed to convince people trust no one ... even if you can touch the books.

I am sorry to pick on you but I have such a hard time trying to understand such opinions. Certainly I don't know you or what you are like so please don't take this as a personal attack I just don't understand the thinking and reasoning behind it. So lets just say I disagree with this viewpoint. I know you are not alone in this thinking too. I don' t know if I will ever understand this train of thought.
The jury has been out on whether disassembly, in and of itself, is considered restoration. The common belief was that CGC would label a book as restored if they could detect disassembly under the assumption that something must have been done to the book if it was disassembled. That cannot be assumed.

As for the rest of your post, I believe you are overstating the effect this debate is having on the market as a whole. First off, big dealers are by no means garnering the majority of the benefit from pressing. In fact, I would bet that far more collectors are having books pressed than dealers. The economics and expense of pressing cuts into margins too much to make it a profitable endeavor for most dealers. Collectors have more leeway to take the gamble that an increase in grade will occur. Secondly, folks are not leaving the hobby in droves over this. More people are buying vintage slabbed and unslabbed comics then ever before. Sales on eBay are up, sales through and attendance at conventions are up, mail order dealers are having a banner year, in-store sales on back-issues is up. You can nitpick any of these facts individually. But taken as a whole they certainly speak of a robust hand growing hobby.

Pressing affects a small, small minority of that hobby. There will never be a general consensus on the disirability of a book that has been pressed. It will be dictated by whether folks are informed, does that information influence their purchasing decision, and ultimately what they are willing to spend to get a book they want.

But please understand that the act pressing and disclosure of pressing are two different and entirely seperate topics.

[DrWatson]

If the Hobby is confusing, Pedigrees are even more so. In this hobby the top Paper Mechanic is also a top Pedigree Expert and author.

And speaking of Northlands...this is the same Pedigree Expert who tweaked a Hulk Annual and "forgot" it was a Northland. I remember PMing Redhook that the HG was the Northland...same book, new grade. Took a while, but finally confirmed that yes it was, along with the "woops".

Maybe so, and be that as it may, but it struck me as "masking" the book's history for marketing purposes.

Anyway, Pedigrees may begin with History, but quickly morph into Marketing Tactic. If Pedigree doesn't enhance marketing it seems some folks who love them so would drop Pedigree like a hot rock to increase $$$. Just sayin'.
Wow, you always come back around to the same way of thinking Davenport. The book was pressed. So what. It's still a Northland. It's still a sweet Hulk Annual #1 with a kick ass Steranko cover. Everything that makes that book what it is, is still there with the exception of maybe a few dents or dings.

[MrBedrock]

When Matt's (and others) book comes out finally, I'm going to bet that this may be the only "Pedigree" that cannot trace the books back to an original owner.
The Pedigree book will ultimately be the final word on this, as Matt worked very closely with Brian, and certainly got as much of the story as there is to tell.

BTW - the Central Valleys will not be the only collection that has no clear lineage to the name of the original owner. But, we should wait for the book...#popcorn#

[MrBedrock]

Anyway, Pedigrees may begin with History, but quickly morph into Marketing Tactic. If Pedigree doesn't enhance marketing it seems some folks who love them so would drop Pedigree like a hot rock to increase $$$. Just sayin'.
Simply put...don't buy the hype, buy the book.
Just as others say don't buy the grade, buy the book.

Actually though, I dig the hype, I dig the grade and I still buy the book.
Davenport, whatever works best for you, keep doing it.
#surrender#

[MrBedrock]

It's still a Northland. It's still a sweet Hulk Annual #1 with a kick ass Steranko cover. Everything that makes that book what it is, is still there with the exception of maybe a few dents or dings.
Brilliant! Genius! Perfect! Great post! Well said! #woohoo#
#cloud9##banana2##love##cheers##superman##rockon## clap#

[Red Hook]

So, again, what's with this story about the hotel room? What is that? Is that a made up story just to juice things up a little? Again, that's in direct conflict with the very different story that you're presenting.

So you're saying that Brian gathered these books together from various sources after "getting wind" (from who - the guy with the gun?). Where did "the guy with the gun" get them?




#popcorn# Can I assume there you have no answer to this question?

[MrBedrock]

#popcorn# Can I assume there you have no answer to this question?
I am saying that whether he bought most of them in a hotel room, or had to chase some of them down which were sold elsewhere previously by the same guy, has no bearing on whether or not the collection deserves pedigree status.
Again, how a collection is purchased and brought to market has no bearing on whether it should receive a pedigree.

(In answer to your question, I never read the original press release. But it would appear that some of the story was left out in that what Brian got in the motel were the last of the books. Upon hearing that books had been previously sold he went out and searched as many down as he could. There may be books from that collection that were resold before Brian got them. But he kept a precise list of what he did get.)

[Red Hook]

Brilliant! Genius! Perfect! Great post! Well said!

Guess we'll have to disagree on this one too! Clear intent to delete the pedigree in order to hide the press, resub and upgrade in the pursuit of a few bucks!


#cheers#

[Davenport]

Wow, you always come back around to the same way of thinking Davenport. The book was pressed. So what. It's still a Northland. It's still a sweet Hulk Annual #1 with a kick ass Steranko cover. Everything that makes that book what it is, is still there with the exception of maybe a few dents or dings.
I think you missed my point. My point was the Hulk Annual wasn't a Northland after the tweak. "Northland" was dropped from the new CGC HG label.

My broader point was "Pedigree" may be viewed as only a marketing tactic by some, not beloved history to be maintained. And from what I've seen CGC is in the same boat as Pedigree. I noticed one raw book from Heritage reappear on his eBay listings, still raw, bumped several grade levels, only "qualified". CGC wasn't needed (and may've disagreed with the qualified HG). One of CGC's staunchest marketing partners dropped them like a hot rock too, in that particular instance. More $$$ without them.

[Red Hook]

I am saying that whether he bought most of them in a hotel room, or had to chase some of them down which were sold elsewhere previously by the same guy, has no bearing on whether or not the collection deserves pedigree status.
Again, how a collection is purchased and brought to market has no bearing on whether it should receive a pedigree.

Wrong again. Major difference between a pedigree and a collection.

So where exactly did these books originate from? Who was the original owner? Where's the proof that they came from a single source?

Let me answer those for you:

No one knows.
No one knows.
There is none.

#allhailme#

[Deathlok]

No one knows.
No one knows.
There is none.

#allhailme#

The truth is out there.

[Red Hook]

Amen, Brutha'!

[AtlasFan]

I'm not exactly sure whats being debated here.. Is the debate that HG collectors are not true comic fans and are into collecting for $$$ as opposed to the collectors who read, re-read and buy comics to enjoy the art and stories -- regardless of condition?

I am a HG collector -- but I collect for the art and stories. I guess that makes me a bit of a hybrid...any other mules like me out there?
Bill

[Red Hook]

Bill, the orignal direction of the thread has moved way off... I don't think anyone really thinks HG collectors deserve to be hated in any way shape or form. They're collectors. They collect what they want to collect. Like everyone else.

Red

[DrWatson]

Dav, when someone is in the frame of mind to sell a comic anything and everything becomes a marketing tactic. To say that labeling something as a pedigree is only a marketing tool is a statement that I would disagree with.

Bone white pages, blazing colors, tremendous gloss, razor sharp corners, well centered, perfect registration, Northland pedigree and as fresh as the day it was printed.

Which of the above would you say doesn't belong as a bona fide sales pitch?

Just my opinion.

[MrBedrock]

Wrong again. Major difference between a pedigree and a collection.

So where exactly did these books originate from? Who was the original owner? Where's the proof that they came from a single source?

Let me answer those for you:

No one knows.
No one knows.
There is none.

#allhailme#
So are you saying that they didn't come from a single source? At this point you are in the minority, so you are probably the one that needs to provide some proof. All I can say is that, having seen them pre slabbing, all together, and from the experience I have had handling golden age (not to sound like I am bragging, I just couldn't think of another way to word that), I have no doubt that those books are all from a single source.

[MrBedrock]

BTW, this is fun. How about if I post some other pedigrees and we debate their worthiness?

http://www.bedrockcity.com/images/wonderworld13.jpg

[DrWatson]

Your slip is showing.

[MrBedrock]

Or how about this one....
http://www.bedrockcity.com/images/ddhitler.jpg
Or to further stimulate debate, how about the fact that this Pennsylvania copy used to have a little more color touch and was in an 8.5 purple label?
Matt can do wonders with the color removal!

[Red Hook]

Again, your version of the story is quite different than the official one. Convenient. And still lacking any real proof that these books came from anyone other than a joe in a hotel room. The burden of proof is on those making the claim that this is a pedigree. I'm saying the general public has not been treated to any detailed explanation and if the powers that be want this to be accepted as a pedigree, and have any respect for the buying public's intelligence, they should have made every effort to clarify, not give out differing versions of the story.

Now if you cared to expand on your reasoning as to why you were so convinced they were from a single source, I think many would be interested in hearing you out...

And frankly, from the comments I've heard, there are quite a number of people that have real concerns about the casual vetting of this group of books as a pedigree. It certainly raises hackles every time I bring it up.

I have no doubt you have plenty of experience handling golden age material. So give with the details already. What convinced you?

[MrBedrock]

Your slip is showing.
:oops:

[Red Hook]

BTW, this is fun. How about if I post some other pedigrees and we debate their worthiness?

Of course it's fun. That's why you're hanging out here in a spirited debate about interesting topics that you can't find elsewhere!

But let's stick to the Central Valley for now. Or are you out of inside info on this one?

[Davenport]

Dav, when someone is in the frame of mind to sell a comic anything and everything becomes a marketing tactic. To say that labeling something as a pedigree is only a marketing tool is a statement that I would disagree with.

Bone white pages, blazing colors, tremendous gloss, razor sharp corners, well centered, perfect registration, Northland pedigree and as fresh as the day it was printed.

Which of the above would you say doesn't belong as a bona fide sales pitch?

Just my opinion.
I think we're in agreement. #cheers#
You come across as someone who wouldn't "forget" it was a Northland you're re-submitting. And you come across as someone who would notice instantly if "Northland" wasn't on the CGC label when it came back.

I'm guessing you'd at least notice "Northland" wasn't on the label when you scanned it for eBay. (and you'd probably include "Northland" when writing your eBay sales description.) :wink:

[Red Hook]

Doc... let's say you'd had your eye on a Northland X-Men #25, CGC 9.4 and had a detailed scan of it in your possession. The book was sold and you next see it in a 9.6 slab selling for nearly 3x the 9.4 price....(remember, you had an original scan and you are sure it's the same book) and ... the label no longer bears the Northland pedigree.

What's your reaction?

[MrBedrock]

The burden of proof is on those making the claim that this is a pedigree. I'm saying the general public has not been treated to any detailed explanation.

Now if you cared to expand on your reasoning as to why you were so convinced they were from a single source, I think many would be interested in hearing you out...

And frankly, from the comments I've heard, there are quite a number of people that have real concerns about the casual vetting of this group of books as a pedigree. It certainly raises hackles every time I bring it up.

I have no doubt you have plenty of experience handling golden age material. So give with the details already. What convinced you?
Certain golden age comics, particularly pre 1942, have with few exceptions relatively similar paperstock between publishers. DC and Dell in particular age almost identically. But Fox, Fiction House, and Timely (among a few others) used slightly different paper and tend to age a little differently. The Central Valleys are predominately Dell and DC, but there are books from other publishers. Seeing the Central Valleys and seeing the uniformity of paper quality among the books in that collection, one would be hard pressed to come to any other conclusion. The paper quality of each book from each publisher is distinct and identical. The Mile Highs have a certain feel to the paper that is unique to that collection. The San Fransisco also have a unique feel to them. To just look at the paper someone might say that they both could be interchangable. But there are definite differences. The Central Valleys are the same way. That is something that absolutely cannot be duplicated by simply putting a "collection" together. That many books had to have been stored together for a very long time.
And one other reason that I feel they are from a single source...Brian says they are. And there is no one in comics whose word I trust more than his. He may be an aloof guy who is difficult to communicate with at times, but he is as honest as they come.

[oxbladder]

So, how many books have you submitted to CGC? #popcorn#

What has this got to do with anything? I do own some books that if I were to sell them I would likely get them graded but I don't plan on selling so it is not practical, for me, to get them graded.

[MrBedrock]

Doc... let's say you'd had your eye on a Northland X-Men #25, CGC 9.4 and had a detailed scan of it in your possession. The book was sold and you next see it in a 9.6 slab selling for nearly 3x the 9.4 price....(remember, you had an original scan and you are sure it's the same book) and ... the label no longer bears the Northland pedigree.

What's your reaction?
Can I answer? Please, oh please? No?
Well I'm gonna anyway.

I have had just such an experience (other than the missing pedigree) on many, many occasions!
In fact, I sell to Matt regularly, and see my old books show up higher so regularly that I have gotten tired of telling Matt congratulations.

[DrWatson]

I think we're in agreement. #cheers#
You come across as someone who wouldn't "forget" it was a Northland you're re-submitting. And you come across as someone who would notice instantly if "Northland" wasn't on the CGC label when it came back.

I'm guessing you'd at least notice "Northland" wasn't on the label when you scanned it for eBay. (and you'd probably include "Northland" when writing your eBay sales description.) :wink:
Kind of in the same vein as I wouldn't forget that you can be an ass if we were ever to meet in person.

The Northland designation is a valid part of the description, the other items are not. They are subjective to personal preference and are open to debate.

You wouldn't list a car for sale in the newspaper and just call it a Toyota or a Ford. You would also list the make, model and whether or not it had a sun roof.

[DrWatson]

Doc... let's say you'd had your eye on a Northland X-Men #25, CGC 9.4 and had a detailed scan of it in your possession. The book was sold and you next see it in a 9.6 slab selling for nearly 3x the 9.4 price....(remember, you had an original scan and you are sure it's the same book) and ... the label no longer bears the Northland pedigree.

What's your reaction?
I would think, "Cool, MrBedrock pressed it to a 9.6, but the dumbass lost the pedigree status. I wonder if I show CGC the before and after scans, will they reassign the pedigree designation?"

[oxbladder]

The jury has been out on whether disassembly, in and of itself, is considered restoration. The common belief was that CGC would label a book as restored if they could detect disassembly under the assumption that something must have been done to the book if it was disassembled. That cannot be assumed.

Two years ago there was no debate. It was unanimous that disassembly led to restored designation.


As for the rest of your post, I believe you are overstating the effect this debate is having on the market as a whole. First off, big dealers are by no means garnering the majority of the benefit from pressing. In fact, I would bet that far more collectors are having books pressed than dealers. The economics and expense of pressing cuts into margins too much to make it a profitable endeavor for most dealers. Collectors have more leeway to take the gamble that an increase in grade will occur.

Okay first off I am not just talking about pressing but yes there are people profiting from it at all levels. Since there is virtually zero disclosure who really knows how pervasive it is. There are people out there though that do want to know if their books have been pressed, disassembled, dry cleaned, whatever. I would dare say that probably most collectors out there would want to know this in order to spend what they believe is fair.



Secondly, folks are not leaving the hobby in droves over this. More people are buying vintage slabbed and unslabbed comics then ever before. Sales on eBay are up, sales through and attendance at conventions are up, mail order dealers are having a banner year, in-store sales on back-issues is up. You can nitpick any of these facts individually. But taken as a whole they certainly speak of a robust hand growing hobby.

I NEVER said they were leaving in droves but i know plenty of long time collector and new and old dealers that are completely frustrated with the direction the hobby has turned. They may still be in the business but they cannot make what they used to in over the shelf sales simply because today's collector has been told not to trust what they can hold in their hands even if this dealer has been a respected grader and salesperson over the years. I don't know a single comic vendor that can survive soley on comics so just how is it that the market is growing and robust if comics themselves can't put money in the bank? There is no data that you can show me that the total number of collectors is growing worldwide. I know


Pressing affects a small, small minority of that hobby. There will never be a general consensus on the disirability of a book that has been pressed. It will be dictated by whether folks are informed, does that information influence their purchasing decision, and ultimately what they are willing to spend to get a book they want.

Again with the pressing. There are no reliable number on what is and what isn't pressed. Nobody knows what has been "conserved" exactly either or polled the majority of collectors that are outside of forums as to their feeling regarding restoration.

I have no idea the extent of this disease but I can tell you is that most of the rare high grade I look at, especially if it come from Heritage, I don't believe to be in it original market condition. It has likely been tampered with in some way. It may be and it may not be but the fact is that I just don't know and if I desire a book that has not been tampered with how could I find out. Hell I don't oppose restoration of any type, I certainly question why some books already in high grade need it, but there are restorations that I, personally, feel degrade the book so I want to know what has been done so I can make an offer that I am comfortable with. If it is not good enough then so be it. Everyone is happy. I don't pay through the nose only to discover the books has had stuff done to it that they believes is restoration and should have defrayed some of the value of the book. So how does this person feel? ripped off. What does this person do? Tells people. Sullies the name of the dealer, etc. Just how is that good for either party?


But please understand that the act pressing and disclosure of pressing are two different and entirely seperate topics.

Again with the pressing why is it that you feel that pressing is what it is all about? It is about doing stuff to books and not telling people about it. It could be pressing, dry cleaning, slight colour touch, interior defects, whatever. I don't really care what people's feeling are on resto because ultimately their own opinion arrived at in their own way. I do know that there are people on opposing sides of the issues and that the best way to make everyone happy is by educating them to the best of our knowledge about restoration and the different sides of the issue. Then inform them about what if any restoration a book has and LETTING THEM DECIDE if they are interested in buying it and what they are willing to pay. Accepting that there are two sides and addressing them to the best of our ability. It should get rid of any bad blood and maybe grow the respect and gain a better name for restoration. God knows we will need formally trained restoration experts if we wish our books to survive to future generations.

Understand Richard that I am not telling you to have different opinions but help me understand your side of restoration and disclosure issues and I am trying get other to understand that there are opposing views and we are not your enemies we just want some respect for our opinions and the ability work in the market in how we see fit. Is there really harm in having opposing opinions or desiring to be told what we are about to buy? If the sales doesn't happen there should be someone else that with have less qualms and pay a more acceptable price. I may not ever accept a position like Doc's but a sure want to understand more than I do. Right now I just can wrap my head around something being done to a book that moves it up a grade to not be restoration.

[Davenport]

Kind of in the same vein as I wouldn't forget that you can be an ass if we were ever to meet in person.

Man, this is getting weird. Something's getting lost in translation. :?

Sorry if I came across as an ass. I was shooting for the silliness/irony of a Pedigree Expert forgetting he's submitting/selling a Pedigree book (which happended in real life).

When it get's down to the nut cutting I just think Gamers will do whatever it takes to game the CGC system and squeeze the last nickle out of a book/consumer. There's been too many examples to think otherwise.

Sadly, HG books/consumers are at the peak of the Gamer's prey-chain.

[Red Hook]

Certain golden age comics, particularly pre 1942, have with few exceptions relatively similar paperstock between publishers. DC and Dell in particular age almost identically. But Fox, Fiction House, and Timely (among a few others) used slightly different paper and tend to age a little differently. The Central Valleys are predominately Dell and DC, but there are books from other publishers. Seeing the Central Valleys and seeing the uniformity of paper quality among the books in that collection, one would be hard pressed to come to any other conclusion. The paper quality of each book from each publisher is distinct and identical. The Mile Highs have a certain feel to the paper that is unique to that collection. The San Fransisco also have a unique feel to them. To just look at the paper someone might say that they both could be interchangable. But there are definite differences. The Central Valleys are the same way. That is something that absolutely cannot be duplicated by simply putting a "collection" together. That many books had to have been stored together for a very long time.
And one other reason that I feel they are from a single source...Brian says they are. And there is no one in comics whose word I trust more than his. He may be an aloof guy who is difficult to communicate with at times, but he is as honest as they come.

Now that's the best answer you've managed all day. I appreciate your evaluation of the page quality...how many raw books in the collection have you managed to examine?

Secondly, Brian's trustworthiness aside, are you saying the single source was the guy with the gun? He wasn't the original collector for sure. See, at least you have to admit that CGC gave this collection a huge benefit of the doubt, since there apparently is no original owner anywhere in this equation, (as opposed to a single source (ie seller) - two different things).

I'd call this the Really Nice Book Hawked by The Guy with a Gun Collection. How many raw books from this collection are available to be examined by the public. As someone once said... "The Slab Hides All".

[Red Hook]

Quote from Zipper68 (07.15.06):


While these press releases make me feel all warm and fuzzy about the hobby, where is the most important information?

WHO WAS THE ORIGINAL OWNER? Where did he live? What was the circumstances of his collecting habits, etc, etc, etc???

Isn't the whole point of pedigrees the HISTORY of the books? All we learn from this PR fluff is how and where the books were purchased by a dealer and we read about Steve Borock fawning over them. Did the dealer pay for the Official CGC plug or is it included in the grading service?

[Red Hook]

Quote from Rocketeer:


...OK,..somebody splain to me like I'm 5,...how is this a "Pedigree"??,...some guy sold me these books 13 years ago at a motel and now they are a pedigree,....doesn't it take something more substantial than a convenient colorful story to authenticate it as a pedigree?,...

[Red Hook]

Quote from Red Hook (7.15.06):


I was under the impression that to be considered a pedigree, there had to be solid proof that the books were purchased, by one owner, directly from the newstand.

Not accumulated from other various sources.

I assume further background details on this "collection" will be forthcoming.

I assumed wrong.

[Red Hook]

Quote from TTH2:



Doesn't seem like a pedigree to me, except for Mutt & Jeff collectors. http://boards.collectors-society.com/images//graemlins/yeahok.gif

The only really notable books in here are the Fantastic #3, the Actions, the Detectives and (depending on their grades) the Batmans. But relatively limited runs of all of those. Most of the collection appears to be 3rd- and 4th-tier titles. While the PQ might be great, the average structural quality looks to be a bit better than the D books but well below the Church and Reilly books.

To my mind, this collection most resembles the Vancouver collection, in not containing a lot of major books. That collection probably wouldn't have received pedigree status but for the unbelievable grades of many of the books, so I can't see why this collection would. There's also the issue of provenance and whether it was assembled by an OO.

Unless I'm missing something, I'll be pretty disappointed if CGC designates this as a pedigree.

[Red Hook]

Quote by CGC Employee Timely:


I was lucky enough to see these books. WOW! These books are as fresh and white as Mile Highs. The Batman, Superman and Detective runs were breathtaking. You certainly do not see runs like this every other day. Even though the collection was modest in size it was the quality that sets this collection apart from other finds. No doubt there are LOTS of top census books in this collection.

West

He was wrong too.

[Red Hook]

Quote by Lou Fine CGC Boardmember:


Besides the dubious quality (from a key comic point of view) of this so-called pedigree, the other major concern I have with respect to this pedigree is the possible extent of the relationship between this collection and the new website that's going to be introducing this collection to the marketplace.


Comic Book Pedigrees (CBP), is a new website dedicated to all things pedigree, has the entire collection listed on its site, including large scans of every book prior to it being CGC encapsulated. Matt Nelson, CBP president and owner of Classics Incorporated, is delighted to introduce the Central Valley pedigree to everyone. "This is a great springboard for what I hope will become the epicenter for pedigreed comics. Brian's collection is fantastic not only because of the quality, but because it was kept intact, and its transition into the market will be completely documented through both CGC and the CBP website. It's a trend that I hope continues in the future," said Nelson.Hopefully, this website is only involved with the imaging and documentation of this pedigree as opposed to the actual marketing. If Matt Nelson is head of the company that's in charges of marketing this new pedigree, I would have serious questions about the integrity of these books from a restoration point of view by the time they hit the marketplace.


also, in response to Timely's gush...



No doubt this is a pretty impressive collection that has been unearthed. I would certainly not question it from a condition point of view. I would, however, question it from a content point of view as most of the books certainly do appear to be from 3rd or even 4th tier books as tt2 has already mentioned.

As you have already stated, there are indeed runs of Bats and Superman, but these only add up to a total of 31 books if you count all four of their titles. The rest of the collection seems to be dominated by titles such as Mutt & Jeff, Tip Top, Sparkler, Four-Colour, Comics on Parade, etc. Nothing to really make you stop in your tracks and come back for a second look.

The Crippen collection, on the other hand, would appear to be most noted for its massive size. From a condition point of view, nothing too earth shattering here as the books seem to grade out to an average of only VF. As proof of this, Heritage has already stated that 6,500 of the Crippen books will be sold off raw without any type of CGC slabbing. Strongly doubt that you would ever see Heritage do this with a single Church, Reilly, Allentown, or Larson book.

[Red Hook]

Quote from HarveyDude, CGC Boardmember:


If the story is true, I am bothered by the circumstances of the purchase.
I have no idea what type of questions were asked to mitigate the
off-chance that the comics were stolen. Did the dealer verify
the seller of the books? Why was the deal conducted in a
hotel room? Why would a seller transport his comics around
to find a buyer? Was the transaction a cash transaction or
was there documentation for IRS audit purposes? If I were in
that situation, my radar would have been on and I would have
proceeded very cautiously prior to consummating the deal.
Of course, I am only basing my observations on the information
provided here but something does not seem right about how the
transaction was conducted. But then again, I am not a dealer
so maybe hotel room transactons are commonplace http://boards.collectors-society.com/images//graemlins/confused-smiley-013.gif.

[Red Hook]

Quote from Awe4one:



Just speculating...but the comics were either stolen or the story made up to hide the original owner's identity...

[Red Hook]

Harvey Dude:


One of my many goals was to get one of each pedigree book. Unfortunately, I will have to pass on this "pedigree collection" absent additional information about the provenance of the books.

[Red Hook]

Ze-Man (two years ago - I suspect his response would be 180 degrees opposite now.)


I just read this thread for the first time, interesting indeed. http://boards.collectors-society.com/images//graemlins/893scratchchin-thumb.gif First of all, I am glad to see so many great comics. It is not the comics fault how they came to light, there are some really nice comics there to be sure. But the Cloak and Dagger story while "perhaps" true, only damages the collection in it's claim to be a Pedigree if you ask me.

Nice Collection?.. YES

Pedigree?..Cmon.

[Red Hook]

And check out this interesting thread...

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1285375&page=0&fpart=1

[Red Hook]

Steve Borock: 7.17.06


These are the basic rules (set 6-7 years ago) and we judge every collection on it's own merits before designating it a pedigree.

As to the newest pedigree collection, the Central Valley collection: Many of these comics, in my opinion, will never be surpassed as the highest graded copy.

He was wrong about that.

[Red Hook]

From Awe4One 7.18.06:


Come-on Steve this is laughable on the surface. There has been strict criteria estabished for what is and isn't a pedigree. It isn't the "best collection found". It isn't the "best collection I've seen". It's a collection of exceptional comics from an original owner that you can trace a "pedigree". To say otherwise, is deluting all pedigrees and, frankly, making CGC look like a "look what I graded!" company...

Unless of course you're treating pedigrees with the same criteria as you do with "collections". And the associated business (money) involved...

[Deathlok]

What no Deathlok quotes?

I'm hurt, Brad, truly hurt.

[Red Hook]

Deathlok: 6.1.08


The truth is out there.

[Red Hook]

Burntboy:


as far as Central Valley is concerned, i stick to my original thoughts about the lack of size, lack of Keys and lack of specific knowledge who the actual OO (if any) was..................... http://boards.collectors-society.com/images//graemlins/confused.gif ( i do respect CGC's opinion here regarding the apparently incredible condition of many of the books, but IMHO that doesn't seem to come close to making the Pedigree cut, however...........).

[Red Hook]

Pedigree Man:


A more appropriate handling of this collection would have been to have CGC recuse themselves from any labeling controversy and just have A-1 issue certs describing it as the "Central Valley" (or "Loaded (?) Gun" or "Gee, Lookee Dem Not-Quite-Salida-White Pages") Pedigree.

With CGC as the 800 lb. gorilla in the comic marketplace, they need to become extremely discerning in the decisions they make on gray-area issues like the designation of a new pedigree. This is especially true in today's climate where more and more apparent conflicts of interest are coming to light and are causing an erosion of the public's trust in the CGC brand. The fact that West and Mark (as part of Matt's larger Pedigree Syndicate) are playing some sort of role in marketing (and selling?) these books just adds to the controversy.

From a broader, less CGC-centric perspective, the branding of this collection as a "Pedigree" continues the further watering-down of the entire Pedigree concept. Despite what Scott says above, there is a huge difference between a "collection," a book having "provenance," and a "pedigree." I urge everyone to find their copies of CBM #32 and read the 9 page article I referenced earlier. Or, lobby Tom Gordon to either get Gemstone to reprint these pages in Scoop or allow scans of them to be posted here.

A recusal by CGC in this matter would have eliminated both negative aspects outlined above. Leaving the designation to Brian (via the issuance of certs) would have truly put the power back in the collector's hands, as such a designation would have then succeeded or failed due to community standards rather than having it be forced upon us by the de facto authority.

[Red Hook]

Aman619:


sounds to me that the Central Valley Collection is clearly a Collection, and shy of a full-blown Pedigree designation. If Steve B is correct when he states that nearly every book will be top or near top Census condition [he wasn't], thats saying something special, and this collection deserves a special recognition on the label. But if provenance (and OO history) is truly one of the 4 or 5 qualifications for a Pedigree [it is], the Central Valley falls short at this time.

[Red Hook]

Shield:


I guess at the end of the day, the original owner is truly unknown here, and there aren't any key #1 issues nor even long runs of anything. It's a nice collection.


My point with these quotes is simply that far from being in the minority, many collectors out there were (and still are) of the opinion that the Central Valley books constitute a collection and not a pedigree.

[Rocketeer]

...Toto?...where are we?...I don't think this is Kansas anymore,...#dunno#

[Red Hook]

Howdy Rocky!

[arexcrooke]

Man, this is getting weird. Something's getting lost in translation. :?

Sorry if I came across as an ass. I was shooting for the silliness/irony of a Pedigree Expert forgetting he's submitting/selling a Pedigree book (which happended in real life).

When it get's down to the nut cutting I just think Gamers will do whatever it takes to game the CGC system and squeeze the last nickle out of a book/consumer. There's been too many examples to think otherwise.

Sadly, HG books/consumers are at the peak of the Gamer's prey-chain.
Just to be clear, wasnt it Bill hughes, and not Matt that example occured with? What does this have to do with Matt?

[Rocketeer]

Howdy Rocky!

...RED!!,..How you been?...is this like Bizzaro land?....I've been away for a while,...I'm totaly lost,...

[stupidman]

In fact, I sell to Matt regularly, and see my old books show up higher so regularly that I have gotten tired of telling Matt congratulations.

That's sad, really. Instead of congratulating him, you should be reporting this info on the CGC Board.

[Red Hook]

It is a little strange at first. It does have that alternate reality feel at the beginning. The majority of people here are great, and there is more cross-board pollination going on each day it seems.

Red

[Rocketeer]

...as long as I can leave anytime I want and there's no purple Kool-Aid it's fine by me and my monnkey,...may I ask who runs this site ?...

[Red Hook]

Just to be clear, wasnt it Bill hughes, and not Matt that example occured with? What does this have to do with Matt?

The thread:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1227487/site_id/1#import

The auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6626506874&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDW%3AIT&rd=1 (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=4&campid=5335809863&toolid=10001&customid=&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dl l%3FViewItem%26item%3D6626506874%26rd%3D1%26sspage name%3DSTRK%253AMEDW%253AIT%26rd%3D1)

Bill Hughes did indeed win the pressed, resubbed, upgraded, pedigree-stripped book.

[stupidman]

Our main man Hoss is in charge! A straight shooting, white hat wearing maverick who got sick of the Ebay Pinks.

[Red Hook]

...as long as I can leave anytime I want and there's no purple Kool-Aid it's fine by me and my monnkey,...may I ask who runs this site ?...

All I know is that it isn't CGC or PGX, and that the arcade seems the place to hang out. Wait till you hear about corral chips!

Oh yeah, Hoss is Boss. Good guy.

[Hoss]

Hi Rocketeer! Welcome to the Corral!

--

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Wow, I just read the whole thread & I had no idea who I was talking to until now. Some of you guys are really serious collector's and dealers. I don't know what y'all do to be able to afford $11,000 books but at least I know to be a little intimidated.

[MrBedrock]

That's sad, really. Instead of congratulating him, you should be reporting this info on the CGC Board.
That would certainly be the prevailing attitude of most of the contrarians around here. Fortunately I believe in giving a man the benefit of a doubt until he proves otherwise. Matt was a very good friend of mine before folks started piling on him for his views and work in regards to pressing. Maybe if you just went up to him and had a conversation with him you might be rewarded with something valid.

Or you could just run your mouth on a message board and continue looking like a knucklehead.

[MrBedrock]

My point with these quotes is simply that far from being in the minority, many collectors out there were (and still are) of the opinion that the Central Valley books constitute a collection and not a pedigree.
That is a mountain of evidence. But it seems like a large waste of breath.
The deed is done, the collection is now a Pedigree. And I am in the camp that agrees with that decision.

On to another topic:
Who was the original owner (please give me a name) of the following - Allentown, Pennsylvania, Denver, White Mountain, Bethlehem, Nova Scotia, Rockford, Oakland, Northford etc. etc. etc. The name was kept for posterity by some, but all?

[arexcrooke]

Wow, I just read the whole thread & I had no idea who I was talking to until now. Some of you guys are really serious collector's and dealers. I don't know what y'all do to be able to afford $11,000 books but at least I know to be a little intimidated.
Thats just it SS, you SHOULD NOT BE INTIMIDATED OR FEEL THAT WAY IN THE LEAST BIT!!!!!!

[The Charlton Guy]

That would certainly be the prevailing attitude of most of the contrarians around here. Fortunately I believe in giving a man the benefit of a doubt until he proves otherwise. Matt was a very good friend of mine before folks started piling on him for his views and work in regards to pressing. Maybe if you just went up to him and had a conversation with him you might be rewarded with something valid.

Or you could just run your mouth on a message board and continue looking like a knucklehead.

Give him the benefit of the doubt about what?

That he's getting a grade bump just on general principles?

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

I don't feel intimidated as far as comic knowledge or because they have a bigger more expensive or prestigious collection, they are just things, but these guys are dealing in books that cost more than my truck. Everything they are arguing about means big money for them. I feel intimidated to get into conversations with them because it really matters $ wise for them. I can start up a cute little thread like "I hate the high grade" collectors, just to stir it up around here, but it doesn't mean anything to me. I think it does to some of these guys.

[oxbladder]

Don't hate me but I will be buying this nice little item in two weeks:

http://www.prairiesable.com/images/comics/wow58.jpeg

It has always been one of my favorite covers with Mary Marvel. Yeah that damn stamp is a big neg but it is a really sweet copy, I can get it locally and for ONLY $3 more than guide for a 9.0.

[Red Hook]

Congrats Ox. When I first saw it I thought of this book I own.... nice little mustache for Lady Dorma!

http://www.macartistry.com/pedigrees/greenriver/tta74big.jpg

[oxbladder]

Yeah she needs a bit of a shave :D

[stupidman]

That would certainly be the prevailing attitude of most of the contrarians around here.

AND on the CGC Board, you know that's true, including people you consider friends. Don't pretend it's "this Board".


Fortunately I believe in giving a man the benefit of a doubt until he proves otherwise. Matt was a very good friend of mine before folks started piling on him for his views and work in regards to pressing. Maybe if you just went up to him and had a conversation with him you might be rewarded with something valid.

Or you could just run your mouth on a message board and continue looking like a knucklehead.

It's not his views on pressing that piss people off, it's the fact that he works on comics that he himself then sells, and won't proactively disclose the work he's done on them. That's a FACT. Can you understand that, cement head? I know you're against disclosure so of course you'd side with Matt. What he does in unethical, plain and simple, and by association, you look just as bad. Add in your asshole online personality, and there you are.
I don't care if people think I'm an asshole, since I don't sell comics for a living. You should care more what people think about you - you're not doing yourself any favors siding with Arseman. I hope your online ranting has lost you customers...

[MrBedrock]

Give him the benefit of the doubt about what?

That he's getting a grade bump just on general principles?
Give him the benefit of the doubt on the fact that he is able to get a grade bump based on a skill that he has worked hard to perfect. It might not be a skill or a process that you agree with, but you have to admit he is good at it. Well you probably won't admit it, even though you know it is true. There aren't many people that can do what he does, much less have to put up with the BS that he does.

[MrBedrock]

I hope your online ranting has lost you customers...
Hopefully I have lost one...but I don't think you ever bought from me anyway.

[kwm: The one and only VoR]

I don't think anyone's questioning Matt's skill or personability.

But - like many others - I believe that work of this nature should be disclosed on both slabbed & unslabbed books, and that anything he can do to aid in this transparency would be a positive.

People want to know - and have a right to know - if work has been done.

Personally, I like Matt, but that's not the issue here.

[MrBedrock]

But - like many others - I believe that work of this nature should be disclosed on both slabbed & unslabbed books, and that anything he can do to aid in this transparency would be a positive.


I tend to agree with you.
Despite what Stu would lead you to believe, I do disclose. And the reason I disclose is because so many on the boards, both here and CGC, have requested that I do so. But in the real world (shows, on-line, and in-store) very rarely do I ever get any feedback on the topic. Sure, folks want to know about invasive resto stuff. But folks don't really push the issue of pressing. And until they push the issue and make it an economic priority there is no incentive $$$-wise for those like Matt to disclose.

[stupidman]

Hopefully I have lost one...but I don't think you ever bought from me anyway.

Don't forget my Ebay ID has an "!" at the end when you put me on your blocked bidder's list.

[stupidman]

But folks don't really push the issue of pressing. And until they push the issue and make it an economic priority there is no incentive $$$-wise for those like Matt to disclose.

Exactly why guys like Matt disgust me. A sin of omission. No conscience, no morals, no scruples.

[MrBedrock]

Exactly why guys like Matt disgust me. A sin of omission. No conscience, no morals, no scruples.
Stu, you are one guy. And it is your opinion that Matt has no morals, scruples, or conscience. Obviously there are others who would agree with you. But the hobby as a whole has to force Matt to change his thinking. And as of yet that hasn't happened. You may be able to start a trend, foment a revolution, and get the wrong thinking people to see it your way. But, again, until that happens things will remain the same.
In the meantime, I am sure Matt is not laying awake at night wondering what he can do to get Stu's business.

[MrBedrock]

Don't forget my Ebay ID has an "!" at the end when you put me on your blocked bidder's list.
I didn't say I would stop you from buying from me (I'm a money grubber that way). I just won't be too upset if you choose not to.

[Red Hook]

Hey, I've bought from you, and would do it again. :p

[MrBedrock]

Thanks, Red! I need to find some Green Rivers for you#banghead#

[Red Hook]

Not as easy as it used to be, but thanks!

[Mariner]

Don't hate me but I will be buying this nice little item in two weeks:


http://www.prairiesable.com/images/comics/wow58.jpeg


It has always been one of my favorite covers with Mary Marvel. Yeah that damn stamp is a big neg but it is a really sweet copy, I can get it locally and for ONLY $3 more than guide for a 9.0.


If you like this that's great, but whoa that is right in the middle of the cover, and right on the babe's sweet face! If you enjoy knowing the rest of it is lovely and that it has a case that calls it a 9.0, that's great and I am glad you for you but I am confused how this gets a grade of 9.0. I have seen this a bunch of times. Tagged an ebay auction a few weeks ago that was a key captain marvel and it was graded a 9.0 but it had a big stamp on it too. I was annoyed and felt like the seller shouldn't call it a 9.0. Didn't the OSG used to knock books to VG if they had a stamp on them?

[arexcrooke]

No, OS did not hammer a date stamp book down to VG on a VF/NM book. That is unless it did before I entered the hobby.
A date stamp can bring the grade down if it is too obtrusive, but this one doesnt seem to me to be so bad. Now, if someone had taken the stamp and hit the book 3 or 4 times...
And looking at the book, this looks like (from fc only) a 9.2 book. Maybe it did get hit with a .2 deduction.

[kwm: The one and only VoR]

Me, I love dem stamps - wherever they show up! You're really getting your hands in the history of the hobby, and it makes books special. I'm glad the grade doesn't suffer (or only minimally), as that reflects a rational valuation rather than condition for the sake of condition.

Me, I'll pay MORE for stamped books. (But rarely have to, so that makes for a win-win.)

On the Matt-pressing thing, I think Stu SHOULD speak to him about it, as should anyone else with concerns. Matt's very approachable, and the more folks that talk to him (nicely, Stu - nicely!) about this, the more likely he is to modify those aspects of his business that are troubling to some of us.

[CurrinComics]

No, OS did not hammer a date stamp book down to VG on a VF/NM book. That is unless it did before I entered the hobby.
A date stamp can bring the grade down if it is too obtrusive, but this one doesnt seem to me to be so bad. Now, if someone had taken the stamp and hit the book 3 or 4 times...
And looking at the book, this looks like (from fc only) a 9.2 book. Maybe it did get hit with a .2 deduction.

The highest that book could grade would be a 9.0 according to OSGG, some books may....and I say may get a 9.2 if it is very unobtrusive.....never a 9.4.....but the majority of the time a 9.0 is the highest grade for a book with a date stamp or written date on the cover.

[Red Hook]

Not true, CC. There are quite a number of Green River 9.6's with date stamps. You are talking GA and SA too, right?

[DrWatson]

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee7/dr-watson/for%20sale/xmen4598w-1.jpg

[Red Hook]

...and others...

[Mariner]

If stamps don't bother you then go for it. As to why high grade collectors are "hated," I think they are only hated when they express hate themselves, which an unfortunate few of them do. they express contempt for anyone who doesn't collect high grade; and they insist that high grade and only high grade copies will ever increase in value; they tell people to stay away from anything but high grade comics if they ever want to be able to resell them. When they do that they're sending out a lot of hate; so they shouldn't be surprised to see a little hate bouncing back.

[Red Hook]

I still don't get the word "hate" here.

Maybe you mean resentment or annoyance. It just seems pretty futile to be working up animosity towards a whole "class" of collector for some imagined evil strategy.

Can some high grade collectors come across as elitist sometimes? Sure.

Do some low-grade collectors come across as purists who think they're the only ones capable of appreciating the true aesthetics of comics, who are the ones carrying true noble love for the medium? I've certainly seen that.

How about collecting what you like, and not worrying so much about what someone else is collecting. That sounds like a winner to me.

[oxbladder]

The book would have graded out probably near 9.4 so the stamp cost it probably 0.4. The simple fact it even with the stamp this is an exceptional book and this type of stuff is very rare locally and for a fair price. I am will be paying probably $21 LESS than the seller paid for it. The 9.0 is a reference for me the fact is that in the end it had NOTHING to do with buying this book. It was gorgeous book for a very reasonable price and that is ALL THAT MATTERED to me. Also worth the money, imo, historically because it is a file copy. File copies, pedigrees, and collections books certainly are rare here too.

In the end it was either own the book or not and I would rather own it.

(Sheesh why am I qualifying buying a book I wanted? )

[Burntboy]

I tend to agree with you.
Despite what Stu would lead you to believe, I do disclose. And the reason I disclose is because so many on the boards, both here and CGC, have requested that I do so. But in the real world (shows, on-line, and in-store) very rarely do I ever get any feedback on the topic. Sure, folks want to know about invasive resto stuff. But folks don't really push the issue of pressing. And until they push the issue and make it an economic priority there is no incentive $$$-wise for those like Matt to disclose.

While I've been known to sell a book in two over the past 4-5 years, I'm certainly not a dealer. But, I have set up at either the NYCCon or the National in NYC a couple of times. (at someone elses booth).

most recently I teamed up with TVComics to sell some of my mid-grade/high-grade raw Marvels, in April. between Byron and myself we sold hundreds of books and were NEVER asked the "resto" question by a single prospective buyer.

in fact, i had to point out what i perceived to be resto on a few books where the sellers were puzzled over the low price. (most notably my TTA #27 with color touch and trimming that Neatstuff sold me as unrestored).

My point is that in spite of the clamoring of many on this and the CGC board, IMHO there does not seem to be similar feelings out there in the general population over disclosure.

We are a strong but small voice overall. Someday, being asked about restoration on a book may become common, but it certainly is NOT now.......(and when i sold Slabs to Big name dealers/collectors like Harley and Brulato, they didn't ask either...).:cool:

[oxbladder]

My point is that in spite of the clamoring of many on this and the CGC board, IMHO there does not seem to be similar feelings out there in the general population over disclosure.


That would be because a large majority out there are completely oblivious to the whole world of restoration. I won't render any assumptions what they would say if they ever got burned by undisclosed work. Probably some would not care and some would be mad. In the end would you rather protect yourself from those who don't care or the ones that do? Who would do your reputation more damage?

I tell you after several years on comic forums now most want the best they can get and as fast as possible. There is no patience or tolerance for any mistakes and little chance for sellers to ever come out on the positive end of the stick. Anal people like this exist in meatspace too, that is the way collectors are ... generally not the crowd you want to be testing the waters with debatable restoration techniques.

Just my 2 cents. I don't like seeing people burned either dealers or buyers.

[CurrinComics]

Not true, CC. There are quite a number of Green River 9.6's with date stamps. You are talking GA and SA too, right?

Well, to clarify, up to a 9.0 it is deemed OK, but when it hits the 9.2 grade and up it says "unobtrusive" location. The X-Men comic graded 9.6 would only be a 9.0 in my book since it's in the middle of the cover and easily seen. I have not seen the 9.6 GR's but if they are like the X-Men example....just don't get it being higher than a 9.0??? Then again OS is only a foundation for CGC in it's grading criteria and there definition of "unobtrusive" must be different than mine. Thanks for more head scrathing material to ponder for myself concerning CGC's grading parameters.

[BlowUpTheMoon]

Put that in the 'For Sale' thread please.

Thanks in advance.


http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee7/dr-watson/for%20sale/xmen4598w-1.jpg

[Red Hook]

Well, to clarify, up to a 9.0 it is deemed OK, but when it hits the 9.2 grade and up it says "unobtrusive" location. The X-Men comic graded 9.6 would only be a 9.0 in my book since it's in the middle of the cover and easily seen. I have not seen the 9.6 GR's but if they are like the X-Men example....just don't get it being higher than a 9.0??? Then again OS is only a foundation for CGC in it's grading criteria and there definition of "unobtrusive" must be different than mine. Thanks for more head scrathing material to ponder for myself concerning CGC's grading parameters.

I think you could say that CGC is consistantly inconsistant. And in no hurry to clarify grading parameters.

[DrWatson]

Put that in the 'For Sale' thread please.

Thanks in advance.
Long gone.

[CurrinComics]

I think you could say that CGC is consistantly inconsistant. And in no hurry to clarify grading parameters.


Amen to that Red, I just....wait, that's a 9.8....with a date stamp in the middle of the cover.....sorry, that book should be no better than a 9.0. I just don't get it...at all. Also, I have never been in favor of GA or SA comics being cut slack vs a BA or CA book....condition is condition.

[DrWatson]

Date stamps carry the weight of a gnat's breath when it comes to factoring the CGC grade.

[Red Hook]

Yep. It's those press-able defects, ie, non-color-breaking creases that get hammered gradewise.

[Mariner]

The book would have graded out probably near 9.4 so the stamp cost it probably 0.4. The simple fact it even with the stamp this is an exceptional book and this type of stuff is very rare locally and for a fair price. I am will be paying probably $21 LESS than the seller paid for it. The 9.0 is a reference for me the fact is that in the end it had NOTHING to do with buying this book. It was gorgeous book for a very reasonable price and that is ALL THAT MATTERED to me. Also worth the money, imo, historically because it is a file copy. File copies, pedigrees, and collections books certainly are rare here too.

In the end it was either own the book or not and I would rather own it.

(Sheesh why am I qualifying buying a book I wanted? )

Though I would not agree that the stamp should be disregarded I would agree that the file copy aspect more than cancels out the negative of the stamp. I think that makes sense when it's a publisher or a person who worked in creating the book. It makes less sense to me when condition defects are disregarded in pedigrees that are only pedigrees in the first place because of condition. Think about how many pedigree books have hand-written names and dates on the cover, dust shadows, foxing and so on. Ask yourself if you have seen things like in other encapsulated books and it seems clear they got treated differently.

[oxbladder]

Did I say it should be disregarded? I can tell having seen this up close and in person the book would be 9.2-9.4 without it.

[MrBedrock]

On the Matt-pressing thing, I think Stu SHOULD speak to him about it, as should anyone else with concerns. Matt's very approachable, and the more folks that talk to him (nicely, Stu - nicely!) about this, the more likely he is to modify those aspects of his business that are troubling to some of us.
That is great advice. Matt will be in Chicago at Wizard World.
He and I will be hosting a restoration detection seminar (date and time TBA - if it isn't already on the con schedule).
If any of you are going to be at the show, please come by and say hi (or scream and holler if it makes you feel better).

[Theagenes]

I first saw it out of the slab. But Brian at A-1 (who found the Central Valley books) wanted to slab it to quantify a grade and establish a value before he sold it. I might have cracked it out, but I already had another copy.

You have an undercopy? If you ever decide to part with it please let me know. :)

[MrBedrock]

You have an undercopy?
Had...Sorry.
You know if I come across one you are getting a call!

[Theagenes]

Had...Sorry.
You know if I come across one you are getting a call!

Cool! The copy I have now was a 3.0/3.5 that Matt pressed into a 4.5 (one those spine roll books I was talking about in the other thread). But I would really love a nice 6.0-8.0 copy with bright colors. #cloud9#

[iron maniac]

Great thread.

Here's my take on the subject, and it always has been this way for me:

Real simple: Collect what you dig. That's right, if ubber HG does it for you or price variants or whatever! I never look down on anyone for their collecting tastes. Everyone is different, the diversity of comic collectors is what makes this hobby great IMO.

[The Charlton Guy]

I crave high grade. I drool over high grade. I LIVE for high grade.

But I'll take a solid reader any day of the week.

Drool marks aren't so important then. #creep#

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Why the HG CG? I'm just curious on your take? And is your craving for all your books to be HG or just a certain type or age of book. Yeah Yeah I know the Charlton thing. By the way do you know of a Charlton catalog online? Or in printed material?

[stupidman]

Now here's a good "I Hate" thread! Some honest answers, at least, and I don't think there's one "What I collect is cool, what you collect sucks" lame response:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2440318&page=1&fpart=1

[MrBedrock]

Now here's a good "I Hate" thread!
I hate that thread!

[Mariner]

Now here's a good "I Hate" thread! Some honest answers, at least, and I don't think there's one "What I collect is cool, what you collect sucks" lame response:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2440318&page=1&fpart=1


Gee, I clicked on this thread and the very first thing that came up was some guy calling another guy's fave material "puerile and inane stuff."

I didn't read further but I am guessing there is more of the same.

[stupidman]

Gee, I clicked on this thread and the very first thing that came up was some guy calling another guy's fave material "puerile and inane stuff."

I didn't read further but I am guessing there is more of the same.

If by "more of the same" you mean people actually being honest, you are correct!

[Capitalrecoveryman]

I don't know what 'puerile' means so I quit reading.

[malaprop]

Don't be childish, CRM.

[Mariner]

If by "more of the same" you mean people actually being honest, you are correct!


I am not even sure what you mean here. Are you saying that if one person calls another's interest "puerile and inane" it's honest? Or just when you agree with the person? What I referred to was the way these threads usually end up with a bunch of people flinging remarks like that; are they all being honest? Or just calling names?

[oxbladder]

They are being childish. It is very common on comic forums to attack the person and not their comments. Sometimes you have do it to survive, but there are people that do it all the time.

[stupidman]

I am not even sure what you mean here. Are you saying that if one person calls another's interest "puerile and inane" it's honest? Or just when you agree with the person? What I referred to was the way these threads usually end up with a bunch of people flinging remarks like that; are they all being honest? Or just calling names?

Yes!

[DrWatson]

I hate that thread!
I hate that you hate that thread.

[BlowUpTheMoon]

So much love in here.

[pasnat54]

As long as it (the hate) confined to this one thread...

[geezer]

Fair enough that people dislike what others collect. Why the need to share that dislike? Will their lives be worse off if they keep that dislike to themselves? #explode#

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

I just want to say again, that I don't hate any comic collectors and regret my use of words. I was just trying to bring up a topic I was seeing reflected in the hobby, on this board and on the internet. I got pretty mad for a while due to feeling attacked and not realizing I had made a mistake. I realize the mistake I made now and will be more careful in my wording from now on.

[Mariner]

Fair enough that people dislike what others collect. Why the need to share that dislike? Will their lives be worse off if they keep that dislike to themselves? #explode#

Some people act as if they're obsessed with making other people dislike the same things they dislike.

In some cases they want other people to dislike something even more than they dislike it themselves.

How many times have you seen someone saying loud and wide that this or that isn't worth anything, then you discover later they bought the very thing they dissed.

[JERKYJOE]

Hi! Being a collector I try to strive for a decent copy with eye appeal. I have bought several books in recent years that I admit I could not afford in high grade. I mostly settle for mid grade, and for the most part would not want to go below VG. If I had the opportunity to get a golden or age key for an affordable price; I would settle for a low grade copy.

New books are not abused as they were in my generation. It is possible to buy back issues that were never opened. What the difference is between a 9.4-10 grade is a mystery to me. There are a lot of interesting books out today. I don't think that they will be rendered worthless as the books of the early nineties. The cover prices are unreal.

Finally, in my opinion A collector makes his choice between LG or HG. There are advantages to both. I don't criticize another collector's preferences.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

I'm wondering if there is a difference between a collection and a library? Perhaps this whole conversation boils down to something as simple as that?

[Khumbu]

Look, it doesn't matter which way you go, Hi or Lo you still collect books. No reason to hate each other, this is a hobby. Everyone should gather around and say OOOOO what a coool X-Men 94 you picked up at the convention!

Myself, I am kind of a HG collector. I get the highest grade that I can possibly afford for my collection, but that doesn't always mean that I can always afford CGC worthy books. For my X-Men collection, I bought a X-Men #1 that was in F/G condition. I mean, do you know what HG X-Men #1 comics are worth, especially if they are CGC'd. Not in my price range. So I am a middle of the road guy. High as I can get, but if I need it badly enough I have no problems with LG.

[tiptophimp]

I love high grade!!

[Drakesfuture]

LOL. I have read this thread and I think I am both.

I tend to like to get four copies of almost every comic I have (of course this isn't possible, but it's my collecting fantasy)

1) a beat reader copy.
2) A higher grade raw copy.
3) A high grade slabbed copy.
4) A copy that fits into another collection (example...an extra copy to fit into my Civil War lot.)

Of course I am not a speculator, dealer or anything like that. Noone will ever know what my collection is like until I am dead and my kids sell it off.

[vathgar]

I have just as much fun grabbing a copy of something out of a quarter box that I want to read and stuffing it rolled in my back pocket as I do finding a really nice condition early silver age comic that I will probably never touch again after buying it. Some of the stuff that I have is purely for reading and some is purely for collecting and most of it is in the middle.

[nocutename]

Everything I buy, I will read! If it isn't falling apart and priced right, I will buy it to read. Ok, even if it is falling apart. :o Moderns I am more selective and try to pick out the best looking copies.

I had wanted to start up a cover collection of heart frames but am having a hard time with the notion of just purchasing a comic for the cover alone. I ended up just getting issues that I still want to read.

[Drakesfuture]

yeah...that's the vagaries of collecting.

Some aren't really collectors, but just dig reading funny books. Some are in between. Some are just "collectors" and want the biggest, baddest assortment of comicy stuff they can get their hands on.

My mom collected nutcrackers (you know for christmas) forever. Got to the point that she had too many to actually display, but kept on collecting them anyways....and she enjoyed it!

[nocutename]

It's true, there are all types of collectors. Me, I love looking at High Grade Books. I appreciate the care it takes to keep a book in that condition for x amount of years. However, I am way too fearful that I would ding them up. I have very little storage room as it is so collecting many books isn't an option.

[nocutename]

Let add this, I don't think HG collectors are silly or being picky. I think you should collect what you like to or how you like to. I do think that if you are very picky then you should figure out where to purchase your items from so you aren't disappointed. There are so many buyers on CGC boards that complain about ebay but they are rolling the dice too often.

[vathgar]

Let add this, I don't think HG collectors are silly or being picky. I think you should collect what you like to or how you like to. I do think that if you are very picky then you should figure out where to purchase your items from so you aren't disappointed. There are so many buyers on CGC boards that complain about ebay but they are rolling the dice too often.

I agree. If it were the case then I could be called picky because I don't like the Teen Titans Go style art and stay away from comics that are drawn that way. You collect what you collect and hopefully you can find enough to enjoy your hobby within your means.

[nocutename]

I agree. If it were the case then I could be called picky because I don't like the Teen Titans Go style art and stay away from comics that are drawn that way. You collect what you collect and hopefully you can find enough to enjoy your hobby within your means.

Teen Titans Go! #cloud9#

I actually just started watching that show because of the Redhood DC reboot junk. The show is way cute and endearing. It has gotten me obsessed with the Titans now :)

[vathgar]

I can handle the style in animation, just not as comic book art. I'm just weird that way....

[Drakesfuture]

Let add this, I don't think HG collectors are silly or being picky. I think you should collect what you like to or how you like to. I do think that if you are very picky then you should figure out where to purchase your items from so you aren't disappointed. There are so many buyers on CGC boards that complain about ebay but they are rolling the dice too often.


Well said! Finding places you can trust to buy from is essential.

FYI---I found a great store on the CCL site---Alphacomics----He is awesome! I highly recommend him. Give him a shot.

[nocutename]

I'll have to check out Alpha's store. I have always had great success on CCL. Another great seller is East Bay Comics. He use to seller here on the forums but I recall seeing him around lately. He has nice prices and grades well.