The Split Market

[CurrinComics]

I have been into comics for quite some time, and it is my true beleif that there is a split market between raw and slabbed books. The raw book has it's value mainly based on the OSPG, where as many slabbed books can better be tracked with other services such as GPA etc. Also, the grading issue, while always subjective, is different between what is laid out by OS and the system CGC use's, and to back this please read this years OSPG edition 38 page 1052, where it states that OS was just the foundation and they then added there own number of "subjective" interpretations. So, that right there setteles it for me, as I can only grade using OS standards and their grading guide etc., as one can easily see pictures in the OS grading guide with pictures supplied for what they feel is a 8.0 to 9.0 that would never grade that high if sent in to CGC-just wont happen. What OS shows as a VF 8.0 many times...may pull an FN+ 6.5 maybe a FN/VF 7.0 if sent into CGC, as the grading standards are not the same, hence truly IMHO seperating the raw vs slabbed books into to entirely seperate markets with different values to go along with them as well. I truly hope that a much more definenative line is drawn in the future between raw and slabbed books, as I feel the time has already come for this to be in place. Plus, no matter where you come from in the hobby, all grading is subjective and as far as "professional graders" are concerned, please let me know what school/academy etc one goes to obtain this certification? Hint-it does not exsist....third party yes....right to say "professional" absolutely not-Peace CC.

[stupidman]

Also, the grading issue, while always subjective, is different between what is laid out by OS and the system CGC use's, and to back this please read this years OSPG edition 38 page 1052, where it states that OS was just the foundation and they then added there own number of "subjective" interpretations. .

That's why I was confused when this came out:

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/scoop_article.asp?ai=3025&si=121

And then this:

"Now that the new Grading Guide has been published with quite a bit of input from CGC Primary Grader Steve Borock, Senior Grader and Pedigree Expert Mark Haspel, and Grader and Modern Age Specialist Paul Litch, there is now little difference between Overstreet and CGC."


http://forum.stlcomics.com/viewtopic.php?t=2589&view=previous&sid=18e7926c9cafda3027a351558e39a3c2

But I guess that was 5 years ago...

[showcase-4]

no matter where you come from in the hobby, all grading is subjective and as far as "professional graders" are concerned, please let me know what school/academy etc one goes to obtain this certification? Hint-it does not exsist....third party yes....right to say "professional" absolutely not-Peace CC.

actually, the markeplace has decided on this issue, and no school or degree is needed......CGC offers a "professional" graded product, just as much as PGX does not. The entire collecting community has embraced and continues to embrace CGC as the undisputed professional grading company, and if they were not professional, their service would have dried up long ago.

Whenever I see a PGX graded book, my 1st thought is ( and I am not alone ) "they say its unrestored / coming from them it means nothing, they say it's a VF 8.0 / coming from them it means nothing" ....there is your example of subjective / not reliable grading.
This is not the case with CGC....they say it / it is so......not just for me, but for the entire hobby

Steve

[CurrinComics]

Yes, it continues to be muddled as CGC is with out doubt stricter than the OS parameters....OS 9.2 is CGC's 8.0.

[CurrinComics]

actually, the markeplace has decided on this issue, and no school or degree is needed......CGC offers a "professional" graded product, just as much as PGX does not. The entire collecting community has embraced and continues to embrace CGC as the undisputed professional grading company, and if they were not professional, their service would have dried up long ago.

Whenever I see a PGX graded book, my 1st thought is ( and I am not alone ) "they say its unrestored / coming from them it means nothing, they say it's a VF 8.0 / coming from them it means nothing" ....there is your example of subjective / not reliable grading.
This is not the case with CGC....they say it / it is so......not just for me, but for the entire hobby

Steve

I enjoy the service CGC has, as I own several slabbed books, however....professional....no...third party with it's own grading parameters...yes. Accepted, yes, by me included, but don't miss the point of the post if I insult your particular`love for CGC....it's a split market between raw and slabbed.....different grading parameters and different values base assumptions-Peace CC.

[stupidman]

This is not the case with CGC....they say it / it is so......not just for me, but for the entire hobby

LMAO! That is such bullshit.

[jaydeebee]

The entire collecting community has embraced and continues to embrace CGC as the undisputed professional grading company,...
Steve

CGC has done a great job of making themselves a place in the comic collecting hobby and I don't disagree that a segment, perhaps even a very large segment, of the collecting community shares your view, but not the "entire" collecting community obviously, as this issue in continually argued.

Since there are motives for collecting other than grade and profit, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that a segment of the collecting community isn't even aware of the existence of CGC or any grading service.

[CurrinComics]

This post was nor is a slam against CGC, but just opinion that there is a legitimate split market now between raw and salbbed books....the OS is used primarily to price raw books, as CGC books ( the ones I sold as well ) bring over OS guide prices in the particular grade. The grading parameters are different the values are different....hence to different markets for comics and collectors...I dabble in both.....raw book say nice 60-80% of guide perhaps less is what you shoot for.....CGC books bring 100-125% of guide. Bottom line the market has split....this mans opinion.

[oxbladder]

I will respond to this thread at length later.

[alecholland]

The entire collecting community has embraced and continues to embrace CGC as the undisputed professional grading company, and if they were not professional, their service would have dried up long ago.

Clearly this is an overgeneralized statement. The people on this board (Comics Corral) make up part the collecting community you refer to and many of them don't embrace CGC or it's product at all. You use the word "undisputed", however even on the CGC boards there are disputes regarding CGC's grading standards and practices - sometimes on a daily basis.

I won't dispute (to use your term) that they do offer a professional service, but honestly what business isn't generally able to say that? Part of Webster's definition of professional is simply: engaged in by persons receiving financial return. Even PGX can say that about themselves. Professional is another generic statement that doesn't really mean anything.

Personally, I think CGC's business success has more to do with a well thought out marketing and advertising plan. Especially, their use of viral marketing techniques such as creating an online destination like the CGC boards. In addition, the collector's society with competitive sets and rankings is a very clever invention as well - very clever. It also hasn't hurt that most, if not all, of the major dealers and auction houses use and promote CGC's services. Of course, It benefits all parties involved in a very financial way and one would be naive to think otherwise. No business is altruistic.

Don't get me wrong, I don't fault them for it. They saw a gap in a market that was leveling off, and have exploited it. However, some would argue, to the detriment of the hobby. I know several comic shop owners in my area with this view. I also know several local comic creators that don't care for CGC. For them, part of it has to do with the fact that all their work simply gets encased in a plastic shell and is then sold like a commodity.

I personally think some of what CGC does is good and some bad, just like it is with every business. You can't expect anyone, especially a business, to be perfect or get everything right 100% of the time. However, to think that CGC is anything other than a business with it's merits and flaws, to suggest that it's some kind of undisputed comic book grading authority that none should ever question, seems either very naive or driven by some other agenda.

I'm really not trying to argue, nor am I trying to accuse anyone of anything - that's just my 2 cents on the subject, of which I probably owe anyone who took the time to read it a complete refund including shipping.

[kwm: The one and only VoR]

Some great comments!

My experience is that CGC makes numerous - sometimes glaring - errors, and that their grading is wildly inconsistent, especially from the old labels (stricter) to the newer (looser).

I've bought CGC books with missing centerfolds, huge chunks torn out, pages glued together, resto not noted or incorrectly noted, grading completely inconsistent with the OGG, etc. The grades on these books were off by a huge margin, and the overlooked defects were glaring. (And these were all old label books, where the grading was, I think, more careful.)

On the newer label books (which I try to avoid whenever possible), the standards are some of the loosest I've seen anywhere in the hobby.

As to the OP point, my rule of thumb is that if I want it, I'll pursue it to a reasonable level whether it's slabbed (which I consider a negative) or not.

And while I've been burned on many a misgraded slabbed book, I try not to let this discourage too much if the book is really attractive to me. I'm just much more cautious, and won't go above a certain percentage of Guide if the book's entombed.

So I fall much more on the unslabbed side of the very real split the OP mentions, but it's a percentage thing for most, with collections containing both, but often dominated by one or the other.

[showcase-4]

Clearly this is an overgeneralized statement. The people on this board (Comics Corral) make up part the collecting community you refer to and many of them don't embrace CGC or it's product at all. You use the word "undisputed", however even on the CGC boards there are disputes regarding CGC's grading standards and practices - sometimes on a daily basis.



OK, OK....sheesh! It was an overgeneralized statement. I meant to say that many/maybe even most collectors have embraced CGC, and they usually do a great job. :o

[DrWatson]

OK, OK....sheesh! It was an overgeneralized statement. I meant to say that many/maybe even most collectors have embraced CGC, and they usually do a great job. :o
I agree. If it weren't for CGC I would not have come back to collecting after a twelve year hiatus.

[CurrinComics]

Well, sorry this turned into a bash CGC thread...which was not the intent, as I collect raw and slabbed comics. The point was/is, that when I'm after a raw book my decision making is more subjective and I will try and get the book at the best price and will consult the OSPG for a percentage of the range I'd like to pay. However, when I'm in pursuit of a slabbed book, I know that in 6 months time or less for that matter, I can sell the book and recoup my money or 90+% of the time turn a profit if I see a higher graded copy and would like to cull out the lower grade. My entire mindset is different between my raw and slabbed books, where I will let my raw books stay for 5-10 years in the box, knowing that after that time I can turn a nice profit on them, whereas the turn around time for the slabbed books is much shorter. I have my main collection which is all raw and will be sold off many years from now and parts given over to my two girls( who already have an interest in the hobby ), and I have certain CGC books NM- 9.2 or higher, that I will also keep around for quite sometime as well. However, I do believe the markets are split and different now for the two types of books. I would not say CGC has hurt the raw collector....if these collectors all stay together and deal amoungest themselves....same for the slabbed collectors, but when you try and combine the two into the same market....it just does'nt work. So, once again, I have no beef with CGC and I enjoy their product as well ( just wish they would offer full disclosure on their grading methods).

[stupidman]

I meant to say that many/maybe even most collectors have embraced CGC

Only true if seen with your myopic vision through green-tinted glasses. There are many (using your term) regulars on the CGC Board that do not own any slabbed books, crack out any they win at auction, and never intend to get a book slabbed. Or does merely the fact they post there indicate they have "embraced" CGC?

[jaydeebee]

It's not that I go out of my way to project an "anti-cgc" image or to even bash them. As I said in another post somewhere, they've done a great job of creating a place for themselves within the hobby. But even so, CGC is not the hobby. It is possible to have a fine collection, without ever touching, seeing or buying a third-party graded encapsulated comic.

CGC provides a service, but a collector need not use it in order to enjoy the hobby. But I do think sometimes, whether intentional or not, there is just the ever-slightest feeling of superiority or perhaps smugness among some CGC collectors. That perhaps they believe their collection is worth more than the non-graded ones, based on the fact that theirs are encapsulated and have been looked at by paid inspectors.

Even the nomenclature used tends to project this superiority in that ungraded comics are "raw", not up to their potential. My comics aren't raw, they're comics, not so much uncooked hamburger. They are as I want them to be, accessible.

I think this actually speaks to the original poster's point of a "split market", perhaps though not so much a split market, as two completely different markets for the same product.

It's not all that different from the classic car hobby. There are some who want the classic car in it's original condition, even through restoration. (I know that can be a dirty word, but still) Then there is the group who takes classic cars and soup them up and trick them out and make them as they never were.

Yet both groups pursue the same items for different reasons. I wonder if the rift exists in that hobby which exists in ours? :confused:

[DrWatson]

You are being too touchy. I have never seen someone who collects graded comics put down someones collection because it's not graded. You buy several thousand dollars of ungraded books only to find out that they have been restored and then we'll talk.

[Mariner]

The classic car hobby has plenty of rifts of its own. There are people who pay a premium for that rare oddity of a car that's been warehoused and never driven. But for the most part car collectors expect the car has been driven and repaired, parts replaced, repainted, etc. They differentiate between them based on whether the parts were replaced with new parts, original parts, whatever, but not by as much as you would think. In fact many collectors even prefer newly made replacement parts because they hold up better. And of course that is never going to be the case with comic collectors. In terms of the rift between collectors, I would say one big difference; I've never heard a higher end car collector disrespect a lower end car collector. And I've never heard a higher end car collector try to convince people that lower end cars should be worth even less than they are already. But you hear those things all the time from some comic collectors. Of course, it sounds like you hear it from a lot of people when it may be the same few people saying it again and again. But in general I have found that car collectors don't seem to be out to "get" each other. One thing I can say for sure. Few if any classic car collectors like the suggestion of putting cars in plastic cases making it impossible to drive or even sit in them.

[alecholland]

OK, OK....sheesh! It was an overgeneralized statement. I meant to say that many/maybe even most collectors have embraced CGC, and they usually do a great job. :o

I wasn't trying to come off heavy handed Steve, even though I know I do sound like it from time to time. You should try working with me, people say I'm the Gordon Ramsey of graphic design. Just so you know I don't agree with folks that believe CGC is the evil empire either (we all know that would be Wal-Mart :D).

I can say that from personal experience, I have bought and continue to buy graded books and have been happy with CGC's service. I also believe their ability to detect resto is the best available, albeit not perfect. And, I still have some issues with what they do not consider to be resto, namely pressing, which I generally feel is more about squeezing out a few extra $$$$ than an aesthetic decision. But I don't want to open that can of worms, mostly because it's my personal opinion and I don't fault anyone who thinks that pressing is fine. To each his own. I'm sure I own pressed books and don't even know it.

I also think Doc brought up a good point about his returning to the hobby. I think in this regard CGC can be viewed as a positive force for those like Doc who I believe truly love the hobby. Again, I think the worry some have is that it has also brought people into the hobby who only see a means to make money and could care less about the comics.

Ultimately, I think this is the issue that the anti-CGC crowd has with the whole idea of grading and encasing comics; that for as much good as a company like CGC may have done or is doing, it has also done that much harm to the hobby for those that find ways to take advantage of the system. I don't know what the answer is and I think that's to be expected of any business or new idea/venture. If I'm not mistaken, the original idea behind the internet was essentially to create a place where people from all over the world could connect to each other and exchange knowledge and information. Instead, it has seemingly become a destination for buying stuff and looking at porn (note the sweeping generalization :o).

I appreciate your comments Steve, as well as Doc's. I value both your opinions and I don't dispute the fact that I think both of you really love the hobby.

[showcase-4]

CGC collectors.... perhaps they believe their collection is worth more than the non-graded ones, based on the fact that theirs are encapsulated and have been looked at by paid inspectors.


actually, the CGC comics collection compared to a raw collection would be worth more ( even if just a little ), based on tons of sales data for both raw and graded copies of similar books. :roll:

[stupidman]

actually, the CGC comics collection compared to a raw collection would be worth more ( even if just a little ),

Is that with or without the sellers figuring in all the slabbing expenses into the selling price? If Book A unslabbed in VF sells for $50 and Book B in CGC VF sells for $70, does that (should it) count as being worth more?


based on tons of sales data for both raw and graded copies of similar books. :roll:

Now that I would be interested in seeing. Could you give me the link to the site that compiles data on both slabbed and unslabbed books in similar grade and compares the two?

[Mariner]

actually, the markeplace has decided on this issue, and no school or degree is needed......CGC offers a "professional" graded product, just as much as PGX does not. The entire collecting community has embraced and continues to embrace CGC as the undisputed professional grading company


Steve

This may not even be the best example of it, but it will do until someone posts something better. But has anyone else noticed that CGC worship sometimes achieves levels that are downright creepy? It's hard to escape the feeling that some of these guys believe sucking up to them in online forums, especially CGC's own forum, will get them better grades on their comics. If you like their service, fine, but the way some of you guys go on, I expect to see you starting fan clubs for CGC founders, organizing tributes and petitioning Congress for medals of freedom.

Sheesh.

[showcase-4]

This may not even be the best example of it, but it will do until someone posts something better. But has anyone else noticed that CGC worship sometimes achieves levels that are downright creepy? It's hard to escape the feeling that some of these guys believe sucking up to them in online forums, especially CGC's own forum, will get them better grades on their comics. If you like their service, fine, but the way some of you guys go on, I expect to see you starting fan clubs for CGC founders, organizing tributes and petitioning Congress for medals of freedom.

Sheesh.

I do not worship them by any means, and it would be ridiculous to think that chat room praise would warrant higher grades. I am just grateful that they exist, as I have been collecting since the pre-CGC era, and the amount of problems that I face now with undisclosed / undetected restoration and improper / greed based inflated grading has been virtually eliminated.

I have 100% peace of mind when buying a CGC slabbed 8.0 universal label with no graders notes, that I have a VF (in most cases ) unrestored ( in virtually all cases ) book......and that's the most important thing....getting what you paid for

Steve

[stupidman]

This may not even be the best example of it, but it will do until someone posts something better. But has anyone else noticed that CGC worship sometimes achieves levels that are downright creepy? It's hard to escape the feeling that some of these guys believe sucking up to them in online forums, especially CGC's own forum, will get them better grades on their comics. If you like their service, fine, but the way some of you guys go on, I expect to see you starting fan clubs for CGC founders, organizing tributes and petitioning Congress for medals of freedom.

Sheesh.

Here's a decent current thread on the CGC Board. It has both CGC teat-sucking sycophants and level-headed commentators who see both sides of CGC, good and bad. "Is grading comics good or bad for this hobby?"

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2423165&page=1&fpar

[DrWatson]

Here's a decent current thread on the CGC Board. It has both CGC teat-sucking sycophants and level-headed commentators who see both sides of CGC, good and bad. "Is grading comics good or bad for this hobby?"

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2423165&page=1&fpar
I am a teat sucking sycophant and I resent that comment. Hater.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

I question what the future will bring and I keep coming up with one thing, in the future there will have to be a reassessment of the grading standards and the standards of uniformity that CGC uses. Their's is a new idea/new business and both of those always need tweaking as growth occurs. And CGC is growing. Perhaps they realize the implications this will have for the value of all earlier graded books and therefor are keeping their "standards" secret for now. I may be wrong on that. Until I read CURRIN's post I did not know that there was an agreed difference (still not sure if it is agreed or not) between the early CGC books and the later ones but I suspected that the earlier one's would be valued differently.
The other thing I keep coming to is that the standards will get stricter. This is seems to me an inevitable progression in the search for the highest grade. You can see an example being the Hulk #181. When people sell a 9.8 they will remark on the OWL quality, if it is high, as a differentiation between their book and the "lower" quality 9.8's. Last I checked there is only one 9.9 (you know that one is never getting re-graded) but if a second pops up, how would one determine which is better (higher grade)? Angle of staple placement? ultra sound tests? Gamma ray particle emission diode response? Smell? Maybe specially trained dogs will be used? Radiation tests? Karmic response? Vibes?

NOTE I'm not saying that I personally think these decisions need to be made or that a book should or should not be judged to such a degree, I'm just saying that it seems inevitable that some will with this trend towards absolute perfection.

[stupidman]

I am a teat sucking sycophant and I resent that comment. Hater.

I resent that you hate my resentment by calling me a hater. Wait, I hate that you resent my resentment by hating what I resent. Wait... what?

[DrWatson]

In all seriousness, why would someone dislike CGC? Is it a personal dislike for an individual involved? Do some people feel that CGC is costing them money? There has to be reason.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

I hate mountain dew. Ohw wait, what I respectfully meant to say was that perhaps there is a down side that could be experienced by an individual who chooses to partake in Mountain Dew and that that idea should be explored.

[DrWatson]

Just like the downside I experience when I read your posts.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Did you get the PM from me? If not please check. If we're still not cool after that I'm sorry. Perhaps after you get to know me better you will understand that I take no firm stances, I'm just questioning and I have made some very bad choices in the way I worded things. Either way, there is no positive outcome of either of us insulting, goading or making negative comments about the other.

[stupidman]

In all seriousness, why would someone dislike CGC?... There has to be reason.

These reasons to dislike CGC have been on my Ebay ME page for years:


1. Take "Guaranty" out of their name. The only thing they guarantee is that what they slab is an authentic comic book, and that 3 graders will look at your comic.
2. Do away with different grading standards for different "Age" books.
3. Reveal their grading standards.
4. Reveal Pedigree requirements/standards.
Update - 1/19/07 - CGC has revealed the Pedigree standards (in conjunction with the Pedigree book one of their employees is working on).
5. Reveal restoration guidelines. CGC says - Pressing is not resto. Dry cleaning is not resto. Reattaching a centerfold isn't resto. Now Steve says disassembling and reassembling a comic isn't resto? They must be making this up as they go along...
5a. CGC let people argure disassembled pressing vs. intact pressing for a year, when all along they knew they considered both ok.
6. Put the grading notes back on the slab label. (When you're at that Con on a Sunday @ 10 am, can you call CGC for grading notes? No, CGC is closed Saturday and Sunday).
7. Put the alphabetical grade back on the slab label.
8. Keep the Purple label. (This was written when there was serious talk of doing away with it. So far, so good...
9. Use the word "restored" somewhere on the label on all books that have had work done on them that are in a Blue label. This would include any restoration removed by PCS. A book that had work and then had it removed is not in original condition. We all know the "books before 1950 can be in a Blue label but still have glue, etc" was a concession for the dealers selling Mile High copies.
10. Do something about Heritage's Jim Halperin's involvement with CGC (conflict of interest).
11. CGC needs to be more responsive and open. Ex: lackluster response from CGC on the Ewert problem. Steve Borock issues decrees of "free re-check of all Ewert books" but it's only posted on one thread on the CGC Boards. Why isn't it on their website? Or a press release to CBG or Wizard? Also, posting important info at 4:00 pm on a Friday isn't helpful.
12. Make a concise and informative statement re: PCS, Freisen's "conservation" venture and the apparent conflict of interest (info forthcoming in a week they said a month ago). (Update 5/1/2006 - PCS's work has been "indefinitely suspended" by CCG).
13. Put the date the book was graded on the label.
14. Stop pandering to speculators and Wizard fanboys (remember "Wizard First" and the 9.5 grade?) with their "The difference is CGC" ads. By doing this, they would stop perpetuating the belief that "if it's in plastic, it's worth more money." It's been confirmed that CGC wanted to call modern books "Wizard Age".
15. Don't put "From the collection of" (which CGC will do if you spend enough money) on the label and pretend people won't call it a pedigree. Ex: Nic Cage and Stan Lee books are a provenance, not a pedigree. The only way you tell the difference? Where this info is located on the label. In the case of the Don Rosa collection, not even this way. Fix this by only identifying Pedigrees, not Provenance.
16. Put both grades (2 of them) on Qualified books - the apparent grade and the actual grade.
17. Fix SCS (Shaken Comic Syndrome)/slab damage. Use the wedge in all slabs. (This one has pretty much been done, as far as I have seen).
18. Stop charging a Percent of "FMV" price for slabbing books (the prices they charge depend on what tier (value) your book has). Explain where they get "fair market value" from and how the bump up to higher tiers are determined.
19. CGC should stop recommending you get your books reslabbed after 7 years. They should just say "the microchamber paper becomes inert after 7 years". That's it, just say that.
20. Yellow label Signature Series - a QVC manufactured collectible.
21. Reinstate the full serial number look-up. After the Ewert scandal, several other trimmed Ewert books were identified through the use of the serial # look-up. CGC immediately put a stop to that for "confidentiality reasons". Sounds more like they suffer from "embarassment".
22. The Registry - pathetic marketing tool aimed at the lowest common denominator of the fanboy. Transparent.
23. Do what's RIGHT for the comic industry first, what makes you CGC money second.

Other good reasons listed here, such as have a 4.0 book can got to a 9.0, etc (Manufactured Gold thread locked), plus there are links to the Boards where these facts are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comics_Guaranty_LLC&oldid=109840013

[DrWatson]

That is nothing but a laundry list of personal pet peeves and dislikes.

[stupidman]

That is nothing but a laundry list of personal pet peeves and dislikes.

Try looking at them objectively. And you did ask "why anyone would dislike CGC", and then you say the list is irrelevant because they're dislikes?

[Paratrooper]

That is nothing but a laundry list of personal pet peeves and dislikes.


#clap##clap#

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Thanks for the info Stu, it seems that you have spent a lot of time working hard to address the possible issues one might have with CGC and I appreciate it.

[stupidman]

#clap##clap#

I glad you agree with me that his statement is contradictory!

[DrWatson]

I glad you agree with me that his statement is contradictory!
It isn't contradictory. What you listed are personal pet peeves and personal dislikes.

[stupidman]

In all seriousness, why would someone dislike CGC? Is it a personal dislike for an individual involved? Do some people feel that CGC is costing them money? There has to be reason.

Do you remember posting this?

[DrWatson]

Do you remember posting this?
Sure do, but I am looking for valid reasons. Crying, "they won't tell me how they run their business" is not a valid reason.

[Catman]

I think CGC serves a good purpose in providing some assurance when buying online, especially on ebay where many folks couldn't grade to save their life. However, I dislike the whole notion of chasing a number grade, especially in the higher grades (9.4 and higher) where it is VERY subjective. This is where comics become a commodity IMHO.

I realize many folks like and collect the very high grades, and that is their perogative. All I'm saying is, is a book without a very minor spine crease or very minor color fleck really worth hundreds of dollars (or more) than a copy of the same book with that singular defect, assuming both copies are equivalent otherwise? Is there even a definitive (and published) set of guidelines for what the differences are between the highest grades (9.4 and up)? I know the guidelines have been debated on the CGC boards before. It is the quest to get the highest number grade which has resulted in pressing becoming a lucrative (and controversial) endeavor. I guess I'm just old school and don't see where grading needs to be (or can accurately be) more fine tuned than NM-, NM, NM+ for the high grades. I can probably accept Mint being a very rare grade reserved only for the truly exceptional copy (if one exists) with no discernable flaws.

As for stupidman's list, I think he raises some valid points. Again, I don't dislike CGC -- they provide a service that has many merits. It's some of the side effects which have become prominent in this hobby that I don't agree with.

Just wanted to share my opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree.

[DrWatson]

I agree with most of that, but why should CGC be held accountable for pressing or people paying large sums of money for the higher graded books? CGC provides a service and all the other factors are occurrences outside their scope.

[Davenport]

Sure do, but I am looking for valid reasons. Crying, "they won't tell me how they run their business" is not a valid reason.
How many other inspection/assessment services won't provide customers a written report based on some known criteria?

Imagine hiring an inspector you'd paid up front, who in turn said "I won't tell you how I run my business!" instead of providing a detailed inspection report. It's silly to think about.

So one can assume with 3rd party comic book grading you're paying for:
(A) 3 people to examine your comic and determine if its a counterfeit.
(B) they'll look for "restoration" (using their definition) and render a "grade" opinion.
That's it. Period. The criteria they'll use to get there is none of your damn business. No detailed report because you didn't pay for an inspection, you paid for the limited results of one.

Speaking of pet peeves... Mine is the use of the descriptive "independent" by CGC. My best guess is it's used in the context of a "independent" business entity, a legal distinction. Very clever.

It's use allows folks to assume it means "independent of marketing influences", as in "without bias". In the meantime CGC has stated they're awash in marketing partnerships with every influential major-marketer in the Hobby. Listening and adjusting to (seller) influences is THE cornerstone of their business, not to mention their acceptance.

[Mariner]

In all seriousness, why would someone dislike CGC? Is it a personal dislike for an individual involved? Do some people feel that CGC is costing them money? There has to be reason.

I think somebody can dislike the teat-sucking without there being any other reason.

And I think people have said here that they felt that some things, including grading, were not always consistent. I can't speak for their correctness but that would also be a reason. And anytime there is widely perceived teat-sucking people may naturally wonder what is the reason for the teat-sucking.

General rule in life; when people are excessive in praising someone, or excessive in going after anyone who fails to praise that person to the same extent, it is a good idea to question it.

[Catman]

I agree with most of that, but why should CGC be held accountable for pressing or people paying large sums of money for the higher graded books? CGC provides a service and all the other factors are occurrences outside their scope.

CGC's service, whether intended or not, is a driving force along with people with money burning a hole in their pockets and a desire to have the highest numerical graded book ("chasing the number, not the book")that makes pressing a book to it's "full potential" profitable. If there is a bias involved (as alleged earlier) that helps to fuel the "speculator mentality" that sometimes surfaces, then accountability is needed.

Please don't misunderstand - I like purchasing books in as high a grade that is both possible and affordable to me. If some folks want to have the highest grade at any cost, that's cool. My concerns are based on many of the alleged "bias" accusations that, if true, would result in nothing more than a manufactured collectible. Some high grade collectors (but definitely not all) seem to just throw big money at a high number on a slab without caring anything about the actual book. It's this behavior (especially if a "bias" actually exists on the part of CGC) which is detrimental to the hobby IMHO because it turns comics into a commodity and reduces the perceived fun of the hobby.

If a potential new collector mainly sees the "chasing of the high numbered slab" without seeing how the actual comic can be appreciated (story, art, etc.), they may get turned off and not want any part of this hobby.

I'm not laying sole blame for pressing and other ills affecting the hobby on CGC. Rather, I'm just trying to illustrate the ripple effects that occur (intentionally or not) as a result of CGC's service.

[stupidman]

Sure do, but I am looking for valid reasons.

That's not what you said but - none of those are valid? Not one? Then your question was disingenuous in the first place, you never wanted any "valid" (define valid) reasons. But we all knew that #blahblah#

Catman, you used one of my favorite phrases: "full potential". What a telling phrase. I bet Steve regets ever posting that, he's never heard the end of it, and rightly so.

[DrWatson]

It seems to me that most people have a problem with what occurs around CGC and not CGC itself.

That's like being pissed at Subway because a dessert shop moved in next door and you go there every time you get a sandwich for a piece of cheesecake and now you have gained 25 pounds instead of losing weight like Jared.

[stupidman]

It seems to me that most people have a problem with what occurs around CGC and not CGC itself.

Isn't my list mainly things that occur at CGC itself and/or are instigated by CGC itself, and not around CGC? #banghead#

[DrWatson]

I'm not laying sole blame for pressing and other ills affecting the hobby on CGC. Rather, I'm just trying to illustrate the ripple effects that occur (intentionally or not) as a result of CGC's service.
Ah, the ripple effect. I like that one. It's right up there with voodoo economics.

[DrWatson]

Isn't my list mainly things that occur at CGC itself and/or are instigated by CGC itself, and not around CGC? #banghead#
You are assuming that you have a right to certain information when you don't, Stuart.

[stupidman]

You are assuming that you have a right to certain information when you don't, Stuart.

Sez you!

But, one more time - not one of my points was valid? Not one?

[DrWatson]

Sez you!

But, one more time - not one of my points was valid? Not one?
Okay, I will give you number 7, but that's it.

[stupidman]

Wow, hey. I was just reading the CGC Board, and saw your "tattoo the books" thread. I agree, that or a black light ID # would be a great idea. I almost thought you were being sarcastic, reading these threads and then reading this one:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2425934&page=1&gonew=1#UNREAD

[clayface]

Try looking at them objectively. And you did ask "why anyone would dislike CGC", and then you say the list is irrelevant because they're dislikes?
Your list was a very intelligent, thought out list. Some people are just followers. The fact that CGC changes the rules as they go along tells me that their moral compass is set at "Whatever it takes".

[stupidman]

Thanks! I just wanted Doc to admit that at least one of them was valid :)

[clayface]

These reasons to dislike CGC have been on my Ebay ME page for years:


1. Take "Guaranty" out of their name. The only thing they guarantee is that what they slab is an authentic comic book, and that 3 graders will look at your comic.
2. Do away with different grading standards for different "Age" books.
3. Reveal their grading standards.
4. Reveal Pedigree requirements/standards.
Update - 1/19/07 - CGC has revealed the Pedigree standards (in conjunction with the Pedigree book one of their employees is working on).
5. Reveal restoration guidelines. CGC says - Pressing is not resto. Dry cleaning is not resto. Reattaching a centerfold isn't resto. Now Steve says disassembling and reassembling a comic isn't resto? They must be making this up as they go along...
5a. CGC let people argure disassembled pressing vs. intact pressing for a year, when all along they knew they considered both ok.
6. Put the grading notes back on the slab label. (When you're at that Con on a Sunday @ 10 am, can you call CGC for grading notes? No, CGC is closed Saturday and Sunday).
7. Put the alphabetical grade back on the slab label.
8. Keep the Purple label. (This was written when there was serious talk of doing away with it. So far, so good...
9. Use the word "restored" somewhere on the label on all books that have had work done on them that are in a Blue label. This would include any restoration removed by PCS. A book that had work and then had it removed is not in original condition. We all know the "books before 1950 can be in a Blue label but still have glue, etc" was a concession for the dealers selling Mile High copies.
10. Do something about Heritage's Jim Halperin's involvement with CGC (conflict of interest).
11. CGC needs to be more responsive and open. Ex: lackluster response from CGC on the Ewert problem. Steve Borock issues decrees of "free re-check of all Ewert books" but it's only posted on one thread on the CGC Boards. Why isn't it on their website? Or a press release to CBG or Wizard? Also, posting important info at 4:00 pm on a Friday isn't helpful.
12. Make a concise and informative statement re: PCS, Freisen's "conservation" venture and the apparent conflict of interest (info forthcoming in a week they said a month ago). (Update 5/1/2006 - PCS's work has been "indefinitely suspended" by CCG).
13. Put the date the book was graded on the label.
14. Stop pandering to speculators and Wizard fanboys (remember "Wizard First" and the 9.5 grade?) with their "The difference is CGC" ads. By doing this, they would stop perpetuating the belief that "if it's in plastic, it's worth more money." It's been confirmed that CGC wanted to call modern books "Wizard Age".
15. Don't put "From the collection of" (which CGC will do if you spend enough money) on the label and pretend people won't call it a pedigree. Ex: Nic Cage and Stan Lee books are a provenance, not a pedigree. The only way you tell the difference? Where this info is located on the label. In the case of the Don Rosa collection, not even this way. Fix this by only identifying Pedigrees, not Provenance.
16. Put both grades (2 of them) on Qualified books - the apparent grade and the actual grade.
17. Fix SCS (Shaken Comic Syndrome)/slab damage. Use the wedge in all slabs. (This one has pretty much been done, as far as I have seen).
18. Stop charging a Percent of "FMV" price for slabbing books (the prices they charge depend on what tier (value) your book has). Explain where they get "fair market value" from and how the bump up to higher tiers are determined.
19. CGC should stop recommending you get your books reslabbed after 7 years. They should just say "the microchamber paper becomes inert after 7 years". That's it, just say that.
20. Yellow label Signature Series - a QVC manufactured collectible.
21. Reinstate the full serial number look-up. After the Ewert scandal, several other trimmed Ewert books were identified through the use of the serial # look-up. CGC immediately put a stop to that for "confidentiality reasons". Sounds more like they suffer from "embarassment".
22. The Registry - pathetic marketing tool aimed at the lowest common denominator of the fanboy. Transparent.
23. Do what's RIGHT for the comic industry first, what makes you CGC money second.

Other good reasons listed here, such as have a 4.0 book can got to a 9.0, etc (Manufactured Gold thread locked), plus there are links to the Boards where these facts are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comics_Guaranty_LLC&oldid=109840013


This is a great list!

[stupidman]

Thanks! I will say I haven't updated it since 1/2007 (pedigrees), so if anyone sees anything that needs updating, please let me know. Has CGC made any known changes (linkable proof) that aren't reflected on the list? I do strive to be accuarate, even if some think it's in a douche bag sort of way.

Edit: Just remembered Davenport's "independent" post earlier. That's a good one I think I will include.

[DrWatson]

Thanks! I just wanted Doc to admit that at least one of them was valid :)
Sharon sends you lots of hugs.

[stupidman]

Sharon sends you lots of hugs.

Sky is great, isn't she? :) I've been lucky enough to go to her house and hang with her for the day, a day she just happened to recieve a huge lot of comics she bought. We had a great time going through them in her killer comic room. What a sweet lady. If she was on this Board, she could keep me in line, LOL!

[DrWatson]

Oh, just because I agree with number 7 doesn't necessarily mean that it is a valid point. It just means I can't remember what all those number grades represent without looking them up on the Internet.

[stupidman]

Alrighty then. Back to what this thread was about originally...

[clayface]

Sky is great, isn't she? :) I've been lucky enough to go to her house and hang with her for the day, a day she just happened to recieve a huge lot of comics she bought. We had a great time going through them in her killer comic room. What a sweet lady. If she was on this Board, she could keep me in line, LOL!
She is a nice person.

[Mariner]

It seems to me that most people have a problem with what occurs around CGC and not CGC itself.

That's like being pissed at Subway because a dessert shop moved in next door and you go there every time you get a sandwich for a piece of cheesecake and now you have gained 25 pounds instead of losing weight like Jared.

It seems to me people have largely been pretty reasonable. But it also seems you are in the category that suggests they are infallible and can do no wrong. People have fairly nicely pointed out that there is inconsistency; now maybe it's not possible to be totally consistent. But you sound like a denier that there's any inconsistency at all.

As for one of the other complaints -- People buying brand new 9.8 books for silly money isn't just because they did it on their own and CGC played no part in it. CGC encourages people to buy and encapsulte brand new books.

As for bronze age books selling for stratospheric numbers that also hasn't occured without encouragement from CGC. Check out their web site and their press releases where they say a bronze age 9.8 has been slabbed and they expect bidding to be aggressive etc etc. Now I am not even saying that's wrong. As the teat-suckers point out, they should be expected to do what follows the best business model for them. And getting lots and lotts of books slabbed is certainly one of the best ways to maximize their business. But to disclaim that any of these things has anything whatever to do with CGC is to walk with the teat-suckers.

[DrWatson]

So, it's CGC fault that people pay big money for 9.8 Moderns and HG Bronze books?

I guess that means that it's the brewery company's fault that there are alcoholics.

BTW... I am far from infallible. I just don't blame other people for my stupidity.

[The Charlton Guy]

I agree with most of that, but why should CGC be held accountable for pressing or people paying large sums of money for the higher graded books? CGC provides a service and all the other factors are occurrences outside their scope.

From the CGC website:

“...CGC has shown integrity, good intentions, and above all, the desire to improve by listening to the people they serve.”
— Matt Nelson
Classics Incorporated

That's just one good reason.

[jaeldubyoo]

That is nothing but a laundry list of personal pet peeves and dislikes.

I share many of the same concerns Stu posted. I’m sure others do too. There are some points that are major concerns. It’s more than a just a petty list of personal dislikes if more than one person shares the same concerns.

I’m not anti-CGC. It’s just that I, as well as many others, think CGC can and should do better. Being the industry leader (a monopoly, actually) CGC should be held to higher standards. It's not like they don't have any room for improvement.

[DrWatson]

From the CGC website:

“...CGC has shown integrity, good intentions, and above all, the desire to improve by listening to the people they serve.”
— Matt Nelson
Classics Incorporated

That's just one good reason.


I can't read between the lines. Plus, pressing isn't restoration. I like Matt. I may name my first child after him.

[The Charlton Guy]

There's no need to read between any lines here. It's pretty clear.

Matt presses books, Matt submits books to CGC, Matt gets grade bumbs, and down the road the buyer isn't any the wiser.

And I suppose you want to tell me that CGC doesn't know when they get a weekly load of books from Matt? #rofl#

And you say that flash-heat-pressing with the intent to get a grade bump isn't restoration? #rofl#

[DrWatson]

Nope. I don't believe Matt gets a grade bump. However, believe what you want to, free world and all that.

[clayface]

I think somebody can dislike the teat-sucking without there being any other reason.

And I think people have said here that they felt that some things, including grading, were not always consistent. I can't speak for their correctness but that would also be a reason. And anytime there is widely perceived teat-sucking people may naturally wonder what is the reason for the teat-sucking.

General rule in life; when people are excessive in praising someone, or excessive in going after anyone who fails to praise that person to the same extent, it is a good idea to question it.


Great post.

[The Charlton Guy]

Nope. I don't believe Matt gets a grade bump. However, believe what you want to, free world and all that.

So you're telling me that Matt takes a VF/NM book, presses it, submits it, gets a 9.6 from CGC, and that's not a grade bump?

[CurrinComics]

My thread has been bucthered to death....it was about two viable..alibet seperate markets from my POV.....sheeesh, you people are brutal. So, this is the "raw" board and the CGC is well the....slabbed board?? Give me a fuggin break..stick to the point of the post and give opinons, or Hoss pull this puppy, as it's way off-line.

[The Charlton Guy]

I know we got off track of your OP.

That tends to happen when CGC is discussed around here, I agree.

As for Hoss pulling the thread, not likely. First off, he hates this kind of thing, and second, I'm the Mod in charge of this particular Area.

As usual, I'm between a rock and a hard place on this one.

But look, you are probably correct that you are not going to get much sympathy or a free pass from me or several other Members if you want to discuss CGC. Like I have said on numerous occasions, I will question them until doomsday if I have to because I disagree with many of their policies. Particularly regarding what they decide is restoration and what is not.

And Stu will probably hang in there right through Purgatory.

And part of the problem (our problem, not yours), is that we haven't had the chance to question and discuss these issues lately. I guess I should just keep my mouth shut and let the slabs roll merrily along, and be a good listener, but I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to speak up and speak my mind.

And you are welcome to do so too.

I'm rambling...

Anyway, just know that this thread devolved so quickly because on the one hand, you have me (Mr. Grassy Knoll) and Stu (Mr. Live Slab-Free or Die) around to try and keep things two-sided.

If you want to just post at CGC and hang with the shills and yes-men like the Doc, you're welcome of course to do whatever you want.

But I would rather you stay and speak your mind too.

I think in time, as more threads get started in this Area, there will be more of a chance to discuss these issues without rancor or potential flame wars. But as long as Doc keeps spouting "party line" in such an antagonistic and BS fashion, I have no recourse for now but to respond in kind.

Anyway, stick around and chat up your OP all you want.

I'll shut up for now.

[The Charlton Guy]

By the way C.C....it is a great OP and deserves discussion.

A lot of it.

Thanks!


I have been into comics for quite some time, and it is my true beleif that there is a split market between raw and slabbed books. The raw book has it's value mainly based on the OSPG, where as many slabbed books can better be tracked with other services such as GPA etc. Also, the grading issue, while always subjective, is different between what is laid out by OS and the system CGC use's, and to back this please read this years OSPG edition 38 page 1052, where it states that OS was just the foundation and they then added there own number of "subjective" interpretations. So, that right there setteles it for me, as I can only grade using OS standards and their grading guide etc., as one can easily see pictures in the OS grading guide with pictures supplied for what they feel is a 8.0 to 9.0 that would never grade that high if sent in to CGC-just wont happen. What OS shows as a VF 8.0 many times...may pull an FN+ 6.5 maybe a FN/VF 7.0 if sent into CGC, as the grading standards are not the same, hence truly IMHO seperating the raw vs slabbed books into to entirely seperate markets with different values to go along with them as well. I truly hope that a much more definenative line is drawn in the future between raw and slabbed books, as I feel the time has already come for this to be in place. Plus, no matter where you come from in the hobby, all grading is subjective and as far as "professional graders" are concerned, please let me know what school/academy etc one goes to obtain this certification? Hint-it does not exsist....third party yes....right to say "professional" absolutely not-Peace CC.

[clayface]

I know we got off track of your OP.

That tends to happen when CGC is discussed around here, I agree.

As for Hoss pulling the thread, not likely. First off, he hates this kind of thing, and second, I'm the Mod in charge of this particular Area.

As usual, I'm between a rock and a hard place on this one.

But look, you are probably correct that you are not going to get much sympathy or a free pass from me or several other Members if you want to discuss CGC. Like I have said on numerous occasions, I will question them until doomsday if I have to because I disagree with many of their policies. Particularly regarding what they decide is restoration and what is not.

And Stu will probably hang in there right through Purgatory.

And part of the problem (our problem, not yours), is that we haven't had the chance to question and discuss these issues lately. I guess I should just keep my mouth shut and let the slabs roll merrily along, and be a good listener, but I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to speak up and speak my mind.

And you are welcome to do so too.

I'm rambling...

Anyway, just know that this thread devolved so quickly because on the one hand, you have me (Mr. Grassy Knoll) and Stu (Mr. Live Slab-Free or Die) around to try and keep things two-sided.

If you want to just post at CGC and hang with the shills and yes-men like the Doc, you're welcome of course to do whatever you want.

But I would rather you stay and speak your mind too.

I think in time, as more threads get started in this Area, there will be more of a chance to discuss these issues without rancor or potential flame wars. But as long as Doc keeps spouting "party line" in such an antagonistic and BS fashion, I have no recourse for now but to respond in kind.

Anyway, stick around and chat up your OP all you want.

I'll shut up for now.
God, this place is growing on me.

[DrWatson]

So you're telling me that Matt takes a VF/NM book, presses it, submits it, gets a 9.6 from CGC, and that's not a grade bump?
You implied he got a grade bump just because he's Matt Nelson. That's not true. The book received a grade bump because hard hit defects are no longer present.

BTW... I'm not a yes-man and I'm not antagonistic. I just don't agree with your line of BS.

[Davenport]

By the way C.C....it is a great OP and deserves discussion.

A lot of it.

Thanks!
I think one possible factor that impacts a split-market between raw and graded is (for lack of a better term) the Halperin-Loop.

That's the CGC/Heritage/GPA circular feed. CGC bases Fair Market Value (fees) on GPA, Heritage (which can bid on their auction items) is a direct "sold for" feed (including buyer's premiums) to GPA, which in turn some consumers use to determine "price" for CGC product. Toss in all the grading caveats that have evolved with CGC (The Crack Out Game) , and it's a sweet up-to-the-minute "price you should pay" influence-loop.

It's sophisticated and kind of tough to wrap my head around, especially when compared to old Overstreet Price Guide market report method.

[CurrinComics]

Fair enough, as the views put forth do in a may also lead to a split market alibet through a split view-points. Like I said before, I collect both raw and slabbed and have absolutely no leaning one way or another, I do view my slabs as more commodoties/investments and I enjoy being able to re-BB my raw books and tend to my SA and BA collection like a curator. These view-points are nothing new to me and as said, my main beef is I'd just like full disclosure on CGC's grading parameters. CGC will pull people into the hobby for mere speculative motivations and I would not classify them as "collectors" but "speculators", and that is fine as longas they know that the market for slabs will eventually level-off and stabilize itself do to buyers having the books in HG they want etc. I still love haggling at my LCS over what I consign books for and trying to work him down in price for books he has in his personel collection. I guess that the hobby truly is much mor diversified than ever before....which is also OK, as it will keep it from getting stale....at least for me.

[comicstock]

CGC will pull people into the hobby for mere speculative motivations and I would not classify them as "collectors" but "speculators"

I'd undoubtedly add "investers' to that short list.

I thought I read a month or so ago that CBG is creating an almost "real time" price guide. I have no idea when it'll be ready. Don't remember where they'd get the "sold price data" from...

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Currin, I'm sorry your thread got derailed, although I don't exactly understand how. What path were hoping this would take?

Doc. I'm sorry but I've read your posts and they don't make sense to me. I may be crazy but at least I'm wishy washy and therefor open to new ideas and changing my mind. EVERYTHING on Stu's list is a valid question and your responses make no sense what so ever. Most of the time you just post two sentences that say "Your wrong" with no explanation of why. Why would you think that ANY INSPECTION SERVICE ANYWHERE, in any field, that you pay for is not open for disclosure of their practices. Can you name one business like that?

I don't know who you are Doc or why you support CGC so ferociously

JDB- "I share many of the same concerns Stu posted. I’m sure others do too. There are some points that are major concerns. It’s more than a just a petty list of personal dislikes if more than one person shares the same concerns."
Isn't that all that needs to be said?

I'm just glad that this can be discussed at the corral and I want to thank STU, CG and everyone else for making me aware of all the possible issues. I will continue to use CGC, although I've only submitted three books, & know HOW to use the service better due to the information here.

CAT- I agree with you about
"Some high grade collectors (but definitely not all) seem to just throw big money at a high number on a slab without caring anything about the actual book. It's this behavior (especially if a "bias" actually exists on the part of CGC) which is detrimental to the hobby IMHO because it turns comics into a commodity and reduces the perceived fun of the hobby.
If a potential new collector mainly sees the "chasing of the high numbered slab" without seeing how the actual comic can be appreciated (story, art, etc.), they may get turned off and not want any part of this hobby.
I'm not laying sole blame for pressing and other ills affecting the hobby on CGC. Rather, I'm just trying to illustrate the ripple effects that occur (intentionally or not) as a result of CGC's service."

I think others don't see it that way and/or don't want to discuss that aspect. Collecting comic books like they are one of a kind art pieces due to their status (condition) compared to all the other similar books (same issue) makes sense....But also doesn't. But I'm not paying for them, so why should I care.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

I'm curious what has the leading expert on comic restro Ciccione (sp? did I get that right?) said about CGC's policy on not disclosing restro?

[Red Hook]

http://www.therestorationlab.com/article.php?article_id=1

For the record, Susan does not single out CGC for criticism.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

I just want to throw out a little bit that I know about restro. I'm an artist and I worked for a high end antique handler for over a year. Although we worked on detail down to the head of a pin level, he told me that the rule was 6 inches, 6 feet. You should be able to see the restro at 6 inches and not 6 feet. I think the most typical example of why this rule came about is Macedonia, where they tried to restore the buildings to look like they did new.

So, knowing that, is the issue that CGC does not disclose the restro, or that they encase restored books in a slab, not stating that they have been restored and therefor making it an issue if a prospective buyer would like to inspect the book? In other words, are they hiding the restoration?

I'm not stating an opinion on this either way, just curious?

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

By the way Currin, two markets means two different types of collectors and while that does exist it seems that the majority of people want to experience a little of everything. This is America, home of the alll you can eat banquet after all.

[clayface]

I'm glad that there's a place to discuss this, without getting gang-trolled by the usual suspects at CGC. It's such an obvious effort and if it's not controlled by the powers there, then that's even sadder. What if coca-had a chat board , do you think there would be sycophants who stuck up for the company because of their business practices, who didn't work for the company or own stock? It's almost like the poor guy earning minimum wage and renting from a slumlord, who votes for tax breaks for the very, very wealthy and against those for the middle class. Unfathomable! When CGC started defining and dumbing restoration down, when grading and PQ started changing....when these things happened so as to allow for resubmissions, I felt that it was a concern for the whole hobby and needed to speak about it. I think Redhook got set up and hosed when they booted him from the cgc boards and I'm happy to see such strong voices over here, because any watchdog movement over there, has been totally neutered.

[Red Hook]

Plus, pressing isn't restoration.

What is it, then? Conservation?

[DrWatson]

What is it, then? Conservation?
Pressing is pressing.

[Red Hook]

That's a non-answer. Do better. ;)

[stupidman]

Well, I was serious about one on-topic question I had. RE:
"the CGC comics collection compared to a raw collection would be worth more ( even if just a little ), based on tons of sales data for both raw and graded copies of similar books"

Where is the proof for this statement? Is there actually a website that has this comparative data? Is there a website that compares slabbed vs unslabbed prices for comics in similar condition? (And I reject any answer that says they can't be compared as conveniently dismissive).

AFAIK, Comics Price Guide is the only site that lists prices for both slabbed and unslabbed in the same condition, and I know how most feel about CPG's prices (myself included). I haven't bought a Wizard in years, do they list both?

[DrWatson]

In a nutshell, CGC provides a service. You either use that service or you don't. They are not responsible for what happens to a graded book once it leaves their facilities. They have no control over who buys or sells it or the amount that is paid for it. For every high dollar book that sells there is another one that doesn't even sell for enough to cover the grading fees. Pro-CGC or con-CGC it makes no difference. They provide a service. That's it.

[DrWatson]

That's a non-answer. Do better. ;)
I'm tired of that merry-go-round. It makes me dizzy.

[Red Hook]

I'm tired of that merry-go-round. It makes me dizzy.

Come on Doc...as soon as I ask a serious question, you get dizzy?

Very simple, non-cute, non-insulting, non-abrasive question... if pressing isn't restoration, what is it?

Use those gray cells! #oldie#

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

I agree with that. Use it or don't. But even if I don't use the service it still affects me.

STU, it seems obvious that the high prices mentioned are for high dollar books on eBay & other auction sites. Would CGC be one tenth their size without eBay?

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Is pressing standardized?
Because I've heard the idea that putting your books in stacks is also pressing, so what is the point of differentation?

[DrWatson]

Come on Doc...as soon as I ask a serious question, you get dizzy?

Very simple, non-cute, non-insulting, non-abrasive question... if pressing isn't restoration, what is it?

Use those gray cells! #oldie#
Pressing is pressing, Brad. I don't have a fancy answer. I don't a funny lyrical pearl of wisdom. As far as I'm concerned, that's what it is. You're welcome to call it whatever you would like. Restoration, conservation, preservation, mutilation, it doesn't matter. As I said a long time ago, I'm not here to change anyone's mind and nor do I expect to.

[Red Hook]

Pressing is pressing, Brad. I don't have a fancy answer. I don't a funny lyrical pearl of wisdom. As far as I'm concerned, that's what it is. You're welcome to call it whatever you would like. Restoration, conservation, preservation, mutilation, it doesn't matter. As I said a long time ago, I'm not here to change anyone's mind and nor do I expect to.

Doc, with all due respect, that's a total cop out. I'm not asking for a fancy answer, or a pearl of wisdom.

And I am absolutely here to change people's minds, with serious debate, not wiseguy quips. And I expect to get people thinking and make new collectors aware of the issues, as I have in the past.

On this particular topic, it's clear you have no real answer. I'll have to accept that for now. If you ever do come up with an answer, I'd love to hear it.

Red

[clayface]

Pressing is pressing, Brad. I don't have a fancy answer. I don't a funny lyrical pearl of wisdom. As far as I'm concerned, that's what it is. You're welcome to call it whatever you would like. Restoration, conservation, preservation, mutilation, it doesn't matter. As I said a long time ago, I'm not here to change anyone's mind and nor do I expect to.

Pressing is a mechanical manipulation of a comic book in order to return it to it's original, flat and unwrinkled state.
What I'm curious about Doc, is if you're not here to change anyones mind, then what is your purpose in this debate?

[DrWatson]

Pressing is a mechanical manipulation of a comic book in order to return it to it's original, flat and unwrinkled state.
What I'm curious about Doc, is if you're not here to change anyones mind, then what is your purpose in this debate?
I could ask the same about everyone else's posts?

[Catman]

In a nutshell, CGC provides a service. You either use that service or you don't. They are not responsible for what happens to a graded book once it leaves their facilities. They have no control over who buys or sells it or the amount that is paid for it. For every high dollar book that sells there is another one that doesn't even sell for enough to cover the grading fees. Pro-CGC or con-CGC it makes no difference. They provide a service. That's it.


I don't think anyone disputes that CGC provides a service and that that service does provide some benefits. However, it's part of their business model to encourage as much slabbing as possible (more slabs = more $$). As such, CGC is an enabler and cheerleader (either active or passive, depending on whether some of the allegations of collusion/favoritism with some submitters are true) for the high grade "chase the label" market, which is where some of the shadier practices (such as pressing and resubbing many times hoping for a higher grade) come into play.

As for the original topic of a split market, I think any discussion of this will eventually raise the issues that have been raised. At least here it has been pretty civil so far and hasn't turned into a flame thread.

[stupidman]

I could ask the same about everyone else's posts?

My purpose is to change minds also. Or at least make people think twice.
And to inform any noobs to comics as to what's really going on at CGC, and what has gone on in their past.

[clayface]

I could ask the same about everyone else's posts?
Another non-answer answer. Since I'm a comic collector and love the "Hobby" and since CGC has a huge influence on the direction the hobby takes, I want to make sure that the direction the hobby takes is not what I consider to be the wrong direction. I feel that CGC has been manipulative in some of it's practices and I wish to point this out and if possible make it stop.

[Red Hook]

As the owner of well over a hundred CGC slabs, I have only ever argued for the need for CGC to improve their business model. When you are selling trust, and claiming status as an independent third party company, then it behooves you to be as transparent as possible. And to make yourself beyond reproach.

CGC's failure in successfully managing pr problems (which any company will face from time to time) has made awkward situations worse. They have no serious competition, and I think they could successfully defend themselves against such if any appeared on the scene. I think there's plenty of room to open up and be more customer sensitive.

None of this is the fault of the graders, customer service people or other employees. It's a management problem. What they've got now is a bunker mentality as a result of not handling things with enough grace and transparency. I'm wishing them the best.

[Ijiwaru Sensei]

It seems to me that pressing is a type of restoration, but one that is less significant than other forms of restoration as nothing is physically added to a book. And this is the biggest problem--the difficulty in identifying books that have been pressed.

What are some of the clues for identifying when a comic book has been pressed? Is it all on an honor system? Or is that system a non-starter as many dealers/collectors who have their books pressed don't see pressing as restoration?

[Red Hook]

I believe there are different levels of pressing for sure. Spot pressing a small crease in a book's cover is one thing. Disassembly pressing (taking the book apart to press the spine area) is at the other end of the spectrum.

I do believe that all forms of pressing should be disclosed to a potential buyer upfront, when known.

[Ijiwaru Sensei]

I believe there are different levels of pressing for sure. Spot pressing a small crease in a book's cover is one thing. Disassembly pressing (taking the book apart to press the spine area) is at the other end of the spectrum.

I do believe that all forms of pressing should be disclosed to a potential buyer upfront, when known.

I agree completely with disclosure, but how can a collector tell when a book has been pressed? Must he or she rely on the integrity of the seller?

[Red Hook]

Yes, to an extent, especially if you are a less-experienced collector. I like to think the majority of dealers are trustworthy.

I've said many times, that if a collector is made aware of the pressing issues, and decides it just doesn't matter to them, then they have my blessing. It's all about awareness.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

I'm here because I'm one of the noob's that is getting educated and I appreciate it.

Restoration of anything is restoring the item to it's original like new state or better in some cases, it can mean adding or subtracting.

I ask again, how is this pressing process different than the pressing that happens to books in a stack? I know heat is involved, but to what temperature? Are chemical's or liguid's involved?

Does pressing reduce the papers life? If so that's not restoration, conservation or preservation it is just cosmetic manipulation.

[The Charlton Guy]

I know heat is involved, but to what temperature? Are chemical's or liguid's involved?

Does pressing reduce the papers life?

If heat is involved ( a hand-held flat-iron or flip-top heat press), the answer is yes.

[showcase-4]

What are some of the clues for identifying when a comic book has been pressed?

if done correctly, there can be no clues....that is part of the "mystique" surrounding pressing ....... some say it's restoration, some say it's not, but no matter what you say, you may or may not ( most likely not ) be able to detect it. The best way to know if a book has been pressed, is if you happen to have old scans of a book, but even then, since scans are 2 dimensional, you may see no difference between past and present images.

It is a complete anamoly when compared to other types of "sure thing" restoration, as color touch, glue, trimming, cover and/or page reinforcement, pieces added, staple cleaining, staple replacement and "wet" cleaning can be detected virtually 100% of the time ( trimming maybe not 100% ), and have no debate regarding their place in the hobby....they are universally considered / treated as restoration.

pressing is on an island all by itself.
Steve

[Theagenes]

If heat is involved ( a hand-held flat-iron or flip-top heat press), the answer is yes.

Really? What is your source for this assertion? I'm not being flippant - I would really like to see some evidence one way or another that shows whether or not intact pressing with a dry mount press (the most common form) is harmful or degrades the paper.

I have had several books with severe spine rolls pressed. By severe I mean they would barely fit into a magazine size mylar. Just opening these books put a tremendous amount of stress on the staples. After having them pressed, I can now open them, read them and enjoy them without having to worry about causing a staple pull. Now some please explain to me how that is not conservation.

Just for the record, I do believe that pressing is restoration, albeit the most minor and least invasive form of restoration. Like many types of restoration it can have both conservation and aesthetic benefits. I also believe that it should be disclosed to potential buyers. I do not, however, believe that pressing is inherently wrong as some people seem to think.
My newbie 2cents.
Jeff

[Theagenes]

pressing is on an island all by itself.
Steve

Actually I would say that dry cleaning is on that island as well.

[showcase-4]

Actually I would say that dry cleaning is on that island as well.

Hello Jeff :) ....still posting early in the morning as do I, I see. Funny you mentioned dry cleaning...I was thinking the same thing as I was typing my post.......

[clayface]

Really? What is your source for this assertion? I'm not being flippant - I would really like to see some evidence one way or another that shows whether or not intact pressing with a dry mount press (the most common form) is harmful or degrades the paper.

I have had several books with severe spine rolls pressed. By severe I mean they would barely fit into a magazine size mylar. Just opening these books put a tremendous amount of stress on the staples. After having them pressed, I can now open them, read them and enjoy them without having to worry about causing a staple pull. Now some please explain to me how that is not conservation.

Just for the record, I do believe that pressing is restoration, albeit the most minor and least invasive form of restoration. Like many types of restoration it can have both conservation and aesthetic benefits. I also believe that it should be disclosed to potential buyers. I do not, however, believe that pressing is inherently wrong as some people seem to think.
My newbie 2cents.
Jeff
I think that CGC should have different color labels for restoration....conservation....and preservation.

[stupidman]

If heat is involved ( a hand-held flat-iron or flip-top heat press), the answer is yes.
Really? What is your source for this assertion?

Because heat is involved.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

well what about scanning? You can't take flash pix of paintings in museums due to the damage they do. Does scanning hurt comics?

[flyingdonut]

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

[Theagenes]

Hello Jeff :) ....still posting early in the morning as do I, I see. Funny you mentioned dry cleaning...I was thinking the same thing as I was typing my post.......

Hi Steve #hello#

[Theagenes]

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

C'est la vie. :wink:

[Mariner]

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Vidi vici veni

copula, ergo sum

[MrBedrock]

Because heat is involved.
I farted.
There was heat involved.
Are my pants now pressed?

[MrBedrock]

... if pressing isn't restoration, what is it?


It is pressing. It is flattening a piece of paper. It is smoothing out non-color breaking, non-fiber breaking wrinkles or bends. It is pressing.
The paper is not being restored. No tears are mended. No dirt is removed. No color is added. No foreign substances are introduced and bonded with the paper. Nothing is there that wasn't there before. Nothing material is taken away that was originally part of the paper.
In my view, pressing is not restoration - it is pressing.

[showcase-4]

It is pressing. It is flattening a piece of paper. It is smoothing out non-color breaking, non-fiber breaking wrinkles or bends. It is pressing.
The paper is not being restored. No tears are mended. No dirt is removed. No color is added. No foreign substances are introduced and bonded with the paper. Nothing is there that wasn't there before. Nothing material is taken away that was originally part of the paper.
In my view, pressing is not restoration - it is pressing.

I 100% agree with Mr. Bedrock #oldie#

[Red Hook]

A classic dodge, Rich.

There is one thing that is definitely added... $$$$$......the reason for cosmetic improvement only pressing. It certainly isn't done for conservation. When Susan Cicconi a classically trained paper restoration and conservation expert considers it pressing, then I have to go with her opinion. Not a dealer's. Sorry.

[MrBedrock]

A classic dodge, Rich.

There is one thing that is definitely added... $$$$$......the reason for cosmetic improvement only pressing. It certainly isn't done for conservation. When Susan Cicconi a classically trained paper restoration and conservation expert considers it pressing, then I have to go with her opinion. Not a dealer's. Sorry.
So...If I give your question a valid answer it is a dodge.
And furthermore, if I answer your question with a valid answer the fact that I am a dealer invalidates my answer.

Let me think about that for a minute..........

Well, it has been great talking with you, Brad.
Obviously no need to continue.

[Theagenes]

A classic dodge, Rich.

There is one thing that is definitely added... $$$$$......the reason for cosmetic improvement only pressing. It certainly isn't done for conservation. When Susan Cicconi a classically trained paper restoration and conservation expert considers it pressing, then I have to go with her opinion. Not a dealer's. Sorry.

That is simply not true! Pressing can absolutely be done for conservation purposes in some cases, as I have done - read my post above. Money was the least of my considerations as the technical grade and value of those books changed very little.

[stupidman]

I farted.
There was heat involved.
Are my pants now pressed?

Your underwear is damaged.

[stupidman]

I 100% agree with Mr. Bedrock #oldie#

'Course you do, you're a dirty speculator.

[stupidman]

That is simply not true! Pressing can absolutely be done for conservation purposes in some cases, as I have done - read my post above. Money was the least of my considerations as the technical grade and value of those books changed very little.

Are you sure you conserved them, in the long run? Comics are stored in a cool, dry place, not in a hot humid attic. Why? Because heat ruins comics. How can any extra heat be good for a comic?

[Red Hook]

That is simply not true! Pressing can absolutely be done for conservation purposes in some cases, as I have done - read my post above. Money was the least of my considerations as the technical grade and value of those books changed very little.

I am talking more specifically about the scourge of pressing applied books simply for cosmetic improvement. And not disclosed.

Of course I understand that pressing can be part of a general "conservation" treatment applied to older books. Susan does that kind of work and always discloses in writing exactly what she did to the book. It's simply a more open approach.

[stupidman]

I think it was Davenport that had a great post about the fibers of the paper and what they go through when they are manipulated (with heat)? Or was it OldGuy? PovertyRow? Anyone remember this?

[Red Hook]

So...If I give your question a valid answer it is a dodge.
And furthermore, if I answer your question with a valid answer the fact that I am a dealer invalidates my answer.

Let me think about that for a minute..........

Well, it has been great talking with you, Brad.
Obviously no need to continue.

I simply don't consider "pressing is pressing" to be a valid answer, Rich. It's a superficial answer. A convenient answer from someone who wishes the whole discussion would go away forever.

I am more than happy to continue to discuss this with you. We'll have to agree to disagree. I didn't say being a dealer invalidates your answer, but being a dealer simply means you're not a restoration expert and you know less.

Be proud of being a dealer. It's a great career! #woohoo#

[Theagenes]

Are you sure you conserved them, in the long run? Comics are stored in a cool, dry place, not in a hot humid attic. Why? Because heat ruins comics. How can any extra heat be good for a comic?

What's worse - opening a book with a severe spine roll, tearing it a tiny bit each time until the the staple finally pops or fixing that problem by having a professional expose the the book one time to 160 degree heat for about 30 seconds? Are you really as dumb as you username suggests or are just trolling?

[showcase-4]

it's about time a comic book message boards website had a debate about pressing..... 1st time for everything I guess :roll:

[Theagenes]

What's worse - opening a book with a severe spine roll, tearing it a tiny bit each time until the the staple finally pops or fixing that problem by having a professional expose the the book one time to 160 degree heat for about 30 seconds? Are you really as dumb as you username suggests or are just trolling?

BTW, to answer your question truthfully, no I'm not 100% sure I did the right thing - I am not a zealot like some people here and I'd like to see more evidence on the long term effects of pressing. Throwing random anecdotes out there like "heat is bad, m'kay" just doesn't satisfy me. Sorry.

[MrBedrock]

I simply don't consider "pressing is pressing" to be a valid answer, Rich. It's a superficial answer. A convenient answer from someone who wishes the whole discussion would go away forever.
I don't wish the topic would go away. I tell anyone who is interested exactly what it is. I want everyone to know exactly what pressing is so they can be informed. That way when they go to sell their comics they can get as much money for them as they can. Or if they want their books to look better they have that option as well. Or if they get in a discussion with a group of folks who are just giving them the anti-side of the discussion they can have enough information to form their own opinion. If they decide that they don't like pressing that is cool too.


I am more than happy to continue to discuss this with you. We'll have to agree to disagree. I didn't say being a dealer invalidates your answer, but being a dealer simply means you're not a restoration expert and you know less.

That is a ridiculous assumption. But if you choose to believe it I guess that is your right.

[Red Hook]

What's worse - opening a book with a severe spine roll, tearing it a tiny bit each time until the the staple finally pops or fixing that problem by having a professional expose the the book one time to 160 degree heat for about 30 seconds?

Please, enough with the insults. That's not helpful.

Of course there is a place for treatments like the one you describe. It's just called restoration. Problem is, none of the current professonals will ever really describe what they do. Did someone somewhere say 160d for 30 seconds? Not trying to be smart, but how do you know this?

RH

[Theagenes]

I am talking more specifically about the scourge of pressing applied books simply for cosmetic improvement. And not disclosed.

Of course I understand that pressing can be part of a general "conservation" treatment applied to older books. Susan does that kind of work and always discloses in writing exactly what she did to the book. It's simply a more open approach.

Oops, I read your post too quickly and didn't catch all the qualifiers. #tomato#

[MrBedrock]

Please, enough with the insults. That's not helpful.


It was aimed at Stu. It goes with the territory, kind of a tit-for
-tat thing. I am sure he has heard it before.
Red, please stand up for me like that the next time Stu calls me cement head.

[Theagenes]

Please, enough with the insults. That's not helpful.

Of course there is a place for treatments like the one you describe. It's just called restoration. Problem is, none of the current professonals will ever really describe what they do. Did someone somewhere say 160d for 30 seconds? Not trying to be smart, but how do you know this?

RH

Sorry, but Stu started with the smartass responses to my posts from the beginning. As for the temperature - didn't you see the phantom presser vids. :)

[stupidman]

Are you really as dumb as you username suggests or are just trolling?

Aww, you went for the easy one, I always lose respect for people who do that. But to answer your question - trolling you? No. Trolling Showcase-4? Yeah, I'd say so. It's just so easy. But you're right, I need to cut back on that. It's not like he really adds anything to the conversation anyway, and at this point everyone's aware of the real Steve. Point taken.

[stupidman]

It was aimed at Stu. It goes with the territory, kind of a tit-for
-tat thing. I am sure he has heard it before.
Red, please stand up for me like that the next time Stu calls me cement head.

I think it was aimed at both of us, although I don't see where I insulted Theagenes.

[MrBedrock]

I think it was aimed at both of us, although I don't see where I insulted Theagenes.
You insulted my underwear!
(Run with that one...)

[stupidman]

You insulted my underwear!
(Run with that one...)

I never said your farts didn't smell like roses!

But yes, I did insult Steve. I'll try to be more objective and on-topic.

[Theagenes]

I think it was aimed at both of us, although I don't see where I insulted Theagenes.

No it was only aimed at you. Red Hook may be a little crazy, but I certainly don't think he's dumb. #hello#

[DrWatson]

I never said your farts didn't smell like roses!

But yes, I did insult Steve. I'll try to be more objective and on-topic.
Que pasa, Stuart?

[stupidman]

No it was only aimed at you. Red Hook may be a little crazy, but I certainly don't think he's dumb. #hello#

Actually I was refering to Redhook's post: "Please, enough with the insults. That's not helpful." and then Bedrock's response. Taking the easy bait says a lot.

[stupidman]

Que pasa, Stuart?

Nada. Adios.

[Theagenes]

In any case, I did stoop to an ad hominem attack and that was unnecessary - for that I apologize. I must be getting influenced by this darker, edgier forum where everthing isn't censored with a *spoon*.

[clayface]

It was aimed at Stu. It goes with the territory, kind of a tit-for
-tat thing. I am sure he has heard it before.
Red, please stand up for me like that the next time Stu calls me cement head.

You said tit......:)

[Red Hook]

It was aimed at Stu. It goes with the territory, kind of a tit-for
-tat thing. I am sure he has heard it before.
Red, please stand up for me like that the next time Stu calls me cement head.

A cement head? I missed that. Now you can be pretty stubborn, but hopefully, (and I've been as guilty as anyone in years gone by of losing it)...we can do things a with a little more civility.

You are definitely not a cement head! (Whatever that means!) #oldie#

[alecholland]

In a nutshell, CGC provides a service. You either use that service or you don't.

If it's this cut and dry to you, then why are you even engaged in this discussion at all? It makes no sense. You could have just said that at the beginning of this thread and been done.

There are posts in this thread that have raised what I believe are some geniune concerns regarding CGC's role as a very visible, aggressively marketed force in the hobby of comic collecting. I personally feel that some of them are legitimate issues that CGC should want to address as a company claiming to provide an impartial and reliable/trustworthy service to comic book collectors.

[MasterChief]

A cement head? I missed that. Now you can be pretty stubborn, but hopefully, (and I've been as guilty as anyone in years gone by of losing it)...we can do things a with a little more civility.

You are definitely not a cement head! (Whatever that means!) #oldie#
Cement Head = "Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set."

:p

[clayface]

A grading company like CGC needs some form of oversight!

[DrWatson]

If it's this cut and dry to you, then why are you even engaged in this discussion at all? It makes no sense. You could have just said that at the beginning of this thread and been done.

I am done. You boys will have to find yourselves a new target.

[Mariner]

I am done. You boys will have to find yourselves a new target.

I don't even know what you're arguing about, but I have never seen people targeted on a board only when they agree to be a target. You can leave, but the bullets will continue to fly.

[alecholland]

I am done. You boys will have to find yourselves a new target.

:confused: A target? Man, you've really got me confused Doc.

[Paratrooper]

A grading company like CGC needs some form of oversight!


You're Right! The Federal Government needs to get involved, because a comic grading company is soooooooooooooooooooo important to our American way of life. You are a tool here and a tool on the CGC boards.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

So excuse me if I'm wrong, but what you are actually arguing as far as whether or not pressing is restoration/conservation/preservation is the amount of time A book is pressed. Is it not obvious that putting the book under the same press that un wrinkles for a much longer time will damage the book? So how long can the book take heat and not be damaged? If as, I believe STU and RED will and have admitted, pressing is a legitimate form of restoration then when does it become a non restorative process.

Once the issue of how long a book can be pressed and to what temperature, then the issue will become whether the book is damaged at all and if not then disclosure is not really necessary, if so then it should be disclosed due to the fact that the book has had a process done that will make the book appear better with the overall life being shortened. Am I wrong?

You dealer's are saying it is not, but would you then be willing to let someone press one of your expensive 9.2 pedigrees to make it a little better? Do you press your own books?

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Time for some of that Whiskey Trooper? I'll have one with ya.