What's next?

[clayface]

What type of resto is cgc going to say is not restoration next? How is it that a for profit service, gets to write the rules for what is or isn't restoration?

[The Charlton Guy]

What type of resto is cgc going to say is not restoration next?

I predict disassembly and staple replacement.


How is it that a for profit service, gets to write the rules for what is or isn't restoration?

If one thing is certain when it comes to "Rules" for restoration in professional grading, it's this; there are no "Rules" anymore.

[stupidman]

I predict disassembly and staple replacement.

Disassembly and reassembly has already been deemed not resto, if done correctly.

Steve posted this:

"There is no restoration to be found here.

Obviously, someone opened the staples, switched the covers back to their original manufactured positions, put the staples back in their original positions, probably pressed the book, and someone, whether it was the one who did the work or someone who bought it, submitted it. As I have stated before, if nothing was added, CGC does not consider it restoration. There was no restoration (glue, reinforcement, color touch, etc) to be found on this book"

And here is the replies:
http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1433649/site_id/1#import

Staple replacement also, iirc, although I don't have a link handy.

[DrWatson]

I think staple replacement gets a green Qualified label as they are not original. I could be wrong, though.

[The Charlton Guy]

Disassembly and reassembly has already been deemed not resto, if done correctly.

Steve posted this:

"There is no restoration to be found here.

Obviously, someone opened the staples, switched the covers back to their original manufactured positions, put the staples back in their original positions, probably pressed the book, and someone, whether it was the one who did the work or someone who bought it, submitted it. As I have stated before, if nothing was added, CGC does not consider it restoration. There was no restoration (glue, reinforcement, color touch, etc) to be found on this book"

And here is the replies:
http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1433649/site_id/1#import

Staple replacement also, iirc, although I don't have a link handy.

#rofl#

I guess de Nile ain't just a river in Egypt anymore is it?

[stupidman]

I think staple replacement gets a green Qualified label as they are not original. I could be wrong, though.

Cleaned staples get a Green, so maybe replaced ones do too. I do know Overstreet says staple replacement is ok in certain grades, maybe that's what I'm thinking of. Page 224 2nd edition: "Any staple can be replaced on books up to Fine, but only vintage staples can be used on books from VF to NM. Mint books must have original staples" And since CGC had a large amount of input into this edition, it would follow that...

[The Charlton Guy]

They really are writing their own Restoration Gospel, aren't they?

[clayface]

They really are writing their own Restoration Gospel, aren't they?
I don't even bother trying to have a serious debate with the CGC collaborators anymore. All they try to do is disrupt debate. It's pretty sad, really.

[The Charlton Guy]

...sad, really.

Watch out JDB, it's spreading...

[Paratrooper]

I think staple replacement gets a green Qualified label as they are not original. I could be wrong, though.
Staple replacement gets a purple label. I have a Rangers Comics that had only a staple replaced get slabbed with a purple holder.

[flyingdonut]

Married pages apparently get a Green. That's interesting.

[jaydeebee]

Watch out JDB, it's spreading...

:rolleyes:

[The Charlton Guy]

Staple replacement gets a purple label. I have a Rangers Comics that had only a staple replaced get slabbed with a purple holder.

It makes zero sense that disassembly is allowed but staple replacement isn't.

It also makes little or no sense that disassembly is allowed but married pages gets a Qualified label. What difference does it make at that point?

If the book is taken apart, interior sheets flattened/pressed, interior bindery tears/punctures flattened and closed up, spine fold aligned and flattend, cover pressed and re-folded/re-centered, and whatever else one can do without getting slapped on the wrist. At that point, does it make a hoot in hell difference if sheets are replaced from another book or if vintage staples are put in the place of the original?

[stupidman]

CGC's policy on staples? (From Steve)

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=4&Number=592175&Searchpage=1&Main=32363&Words=staple+sborock&topic=0&Search=true#Post592175

Does this contradict the disassembly is not resto argument? Or is Steve saying these people are incorrect when they say nothing was done to the staples?

[Davenport]

CGC's policy on staples? (From Steve)

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=4&Number=592175&Searchpage=1&Main=32363&Words=staple+sborock&topic=0&Search=true#Post592175

Does this contradict the disassembly is not resto argument? Or is Steve saying these people are incorrect when they say nothing was done to the staples?
That link is from 2004. Here's one from 2006:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=4&Number=1352614&Searchpage=13&Main=74068&Words=plitch&topic=0&Search=true#Post1352614

Read it as carefully as it's worded. The devil is in the details.

And here's the infamous "staples cleaned" FF3 that became a CGC Blue 8.5 courtesy of Ewert's paper mechanic:

http://comics.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=815&Lot_No=2419&src=pr

My best guess conclusion is if a paper mechanic swaps staples using the exact same vintage the odds of Blue Label are in their favor. In other words, staples from a cadaver that's the exact same year/publisher/title, if not exact issue number.

If that's wrong someone correct me. But I think "vintage" is the red-flag "tell". Such as putting 1960's staples in a GA book. The paper mechanic's goal would be a "from the manufacturer" dead-nuts match that'll slip under the radar.

[jaeldubyoo]

Aside from the disassembly issue, why would "marrying" get a green label and not a purple label. You're taking parts from another book and ADDING it to another. You're ADDING PARTS that were NOT ORIGINALLY there. Swapping or substituting is just another way of saying something was added that was not there originally. You've created a "Frankenstein Monster" of a comic even if it looks better.

[MasterChief]

Some good discussions taking place around these parts. Guess I should pay attention more often.

I see some familiar names and some not so familiar. Seems like new folk are interested in asking unpopular questions in an effort to gain knowledge and understanding, and some old folk are providing information to add in that discovery.

That's a good thing, IMO. Keep the dialogue following, present the information objectively, and let the reader draw their own conclusions.

So much has yet to be revealed about the events of the past, and the information is out there if you're of an open mind and have the mettle to conduct the necessary due diligence to enlighten the mind.

Education is the key and knowledge can be your guide. Let not the words of the apparent apologist or complacent communicator discourage discovery. Conducted your own research and ask the probing question. It's still your hobby so take an active roll. :)

[The Charlton Guy]

Thanks for the good word MC. #hello#

I look forward to hearing from you more often.

Best regards,

C.G.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

So, from what y'all are saying, a plod or Greenie slab are becoming less stygmitized due to the fact that a blue isn't that much different. I'm also looking at unslabbed books as not being much dif than blue labels since the whole point of buying a blue was to get a prefessionally graded book that doesn't have restro.

IMO, they are just hurting themselves by taking these stances.

[stupidman]

That link is from 2004. Here's one from 2006:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=4&Number=1352614&Searchpage=13&Main=74068&Words=plitch&topic=0&Search=true#Post1352614

Read it as carefully as it's worded. The devil is in the details.

And here's the infamous "staples cleaned" FF3 that became a CGC Blue 8.5 courtesy of Ewert's paper mechanic:

http://comics.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=815&Lot_No=2419&src=pr

My best guess conclusion is if a paper mechanic swaps staples using the exact same vintage the odds of Blue Label are in their favor. In other words, staples from a cadaver that's the exact same year/publisher/title, if not exact issue number.

If that's wrong someone correct me. But I think "vintage" is the red-flag "tell". Such as putting 1960's staples in a GA book. The paper mechanic's goal would be a "from the manufacturer" dead-nuts match that'll slip under the radar.

Good links! #clap# My mistake was looking for links that Borock commented on, forget all about Litch (and I shoulda went right to the Manufactured Gold thread anyway).

[clayface]

OK, I have a question. It seems that at the corral, we can speak much more freely about problems we have with CGC's grading and restoration policy. My question then, is, what can be done about it. I'm thinking that we can talk until we're blue in the face, as changes will not occur. The only changes that would occur at cgc are ones that make them and their collaborators more money. Am I right?

[MrBedrock]

OK, I have a question. It seems that at the corral, we can speak much more freely about problems we have with CGC's grading and restoration policy. My question then, is, what can be done about it. I'm thinking that we can talk until we're blue in the face, as changes will not occur. The only changes that would occur at cgc are ones that make them and their collaborators more money. Am I right?
The first thing that you can do to change CGC's stance is change the prevailing viewpoint of the marketplace. You can do this by presenting an argument that will change the opinions of collectors who don't feel that, for example, simple disassembly is restoration.

I don't feel that disassembly, in and of itself, is restorative.
There is nothing material present that wasn't there before the disassembly.
There is nothing material present that wasn't there at the time of manufacture.
One can only assume that an act other than the disassembly was performed. Until an act can be proven, there is no basis for calling something restored - unless you feel that the act of disassembly itself is restorative.

Present to me an argument strong enough to change my mind on disassembly. If you can then I would imagine it would be strong enough to change the minds of many. Heck, if it is that good I will help you shout it from the rooftops!

BTW - IMO A married page should get a green label. Especially since, in a vast majority of cases, the staple holes on a married page are not going to line up with the new staple set so an additional set of staple holes would then be present. This is hidden damage which must be considered when grading but not apparent on viewing through the holder (THE reason for a green label in the first place).

[jaeldubyoo]

BTW - IMO A married page should get a green label. Especially since, in a vast majority of cases, the staple holes on a married page are not going to line up with the new staple set so an additional set of staple holes would then be present. This is hidden damage which must be considered when grading but not apparent on viewing through the holder (THE reason for a green label in the first place).

A PLOD will tell you that. Whether the damage is hidden or not, is restoration not still restoration? My point is I consider marrying to be restoration, whether it's hidden or not in a case. Just because it's in a case and you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. Is it "what you can't see, won't hurt you?"

[Paratrooper]

Let's call pressing and dissassembly "Preventive Maintenance" sounds catchy.

[clayface]

I would call it conservation or preservation, but not quite restoration.

[Mariner]

A staple replaced should get a green label with red and white highlights (like the Staples stores). A married page should be denoted with a pink label (because of the recent legalizations of gay marriage). Dissassembly with restoration should get a label that is red on one side and blue on the other to denote the separation of the colors that constitute purple. Disassembly without restoration should get a blue label with cross-hatching white areas in between. In order to keep all the colors straight, there should be a separate guide which explains them, but the explanations should be achived not by words but with more colors and perhaps semaphor and musical symbols (B sharp for unrestored; D major for heavily restored; etc.)

[MasterChief]

Thanks for the good word MC. #hello#

I look forward to hearing from you more often.

Best regards,

C.G.
Thx, CG... and all the best to you too! :veryhappy:

[The Charlton Guy]

"Geez Gibert!"

"Say I have a book with serious spine roll...I pull the staples, I seperate the leaves. I don't know why in the heck I would want to do that, but let's just say I did it. For the sake of argument."

"Heck Gilbert! The only reason I can think of to totally disassemble a book is either to remedy spine roll via pressing or to replace rusty staples!"

"I would hate to go through all of that and then come back from CGC with a Green label!"

"Are you SURE about this Gilbert?"

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/the-charlton-guy/brothervsbrother.jpg

"Geez Beav, I don't know. Let's ask Doc Watson! He'll know for sure!"

[Davenport]

I don't feel that disassembly, in and of itself, is restorative.
There is nothing material present that wasn't there before the disassembly.
There is nothing material present that wasn't there at the time of manufacture.
One can only assume that an act other than the disassembly was performed. Until an act can be proven, there is no basis for calling something restored - unless you feel that the act of disassembly itself is restorative.

Present to me an argument strong enough to change my mind on disassembly. If you can then I would imagine it would be strong enough to change the minds of many. Heck, if it is that good I will help you shout it from the rooftops!

This won't change your mind, but its another point of view. Hopefully one worth your consideration.

Ask yourself why collectors are willing to pay hundreds and thousands of dollars for old comic books? Are they ONLY buying degrees of perfect paper? Of course not.

While many factors create the collectible value of a comic book, one of the prime factors is that they are cultural artifacts from another time. And to survive through time and circumstance in a highly preserved state is an unexpected rare miraculous happenstance. So unusual and rare that it didn't take fandom long to begin throwing heaps of money to obtain rare survivors.

Consider:
There is something immaterial present that wasn't there before the disassembly.
There is something immaterial present that wasn't there at the time of manufacture.

There is, in fact, a new history present. You CANNOT alter a book physically without also altering it's history as a collectible artifact. The prior history is lost, and what is refurbished creates a NEW history in the lifespan of the book. That lifespan IS highly valued (if it wasn't then perfect modern reprints would be just as valuable).


The Crack Out Game requires having it both ways. It requires an illusion, a sleight of hand, a confidence trick:

For Grading the criteria must focus only on the current state of the paper, the assembly/printing condition, and the presence of foreign subtances. Purely a physical exam.

But for Selling purposes it needs (abracadabra presto-change-o) the illusion of original lifespan to be factored back in. There's big money in books appearing to have survived, as long as they're indistinguishable from the ones that did.

[Duffman_Comics]

Excellent, well thought out post, Davenport. #clap#

Real food for thought. #cheers#

[The Charlton Guy]

Awesome post Davenport. Correct on so many levels.

I often think of a paralel to all of this...a great novel by Phillip K. Dick, "The Man in the High Tower".

One of the main characters is a Japanese dealer of American "antiquities" who discovers that most, if not all of his "antiques" he deals in are actually manufactured gee-gaws from modern manufacturers.

We are so there right now in this hobby of ours.

Any book that has been messed with in even the most inobtrusive fashion is still not truly authentic. Not even real. In the true sense of the definition of that word.

Any degree of restoration or tampering is still just that; restoration or tampering.

I will still take a one-owner mid-grade book and be proud to add it to my short or long-box over any form of Frankenbook.; Any day, any week, any month, any year.

[oxbladder]

The first thing that you can do to change CGC's stance is change the prevailing viewpoint of the marketplace. You can do this by presenting an argument that will change the opinions of collectors who don't feel that, for example, simple disassembly is restoration.

And who does CGC think the "prevailing marketplace" is? I have been around since 1979 and I don't ever recall being asked by any of the big fish my opinions on ANYTHING in the industry. IMO CGC's opinion does not come from the whole market only the market that buys their services and supports the professionally graded market. They talk to the big fish that handle the high profile books worth lots of money and attention. They are not talking to to the hundreds of regular store owners and thousands collectors that make up the majority of the marketplace.

Hell I doubt 90% of the collectors have any clue about what people have done and continue to do to comics to make more money or get more fame. This lack of knowledge is taken as indifference and used to make it look like people like myself that have a very broad opinion on what constitutes as that whacky minority. I don't know how many times the CGC/Nelson pundits have voiced that people who consider such and such work as restoration as "the vocal minority"


I don't feel that disassembly, in and of itself, is restorative.
There is nothing material present that wasn't there before the disassembly.
There is nothing material present that wasn't there at the time of manufacture.
One can only assume that an act other than the disassembly was performed. Until an act can be proven, there is no basis for calling something restored - unless you feel that the act of disassembly itself is restorative.

The staples will be changed and if actually removed straightened and re-bent into position there is absolutely zero chance that they will be exactly as before disassembly. Unless you straighten the forks of the staples right out there is zero chance that the openings will not be altered on replacement. Disassembly id a destructive process and while it can be done with virtually no detectable damage it is conceivable that the grade will not go down.

Other that restoration I don't know why anyone would disassemble a book. What other reasons are there? Just what is being done? Have parts been swapped out?

To me I would absolutely want to know if a book has been disassembled even if nothing has apparently been done to it. More than likely it would result in no sale because not know what was done or why the book was taken apart is more concerning than knowing restoration was done to it. Most importantly it is a destructive process and could point to concerns for the future structural stability of a book. I would treat a disassembled book entirely different than a exact same copy that has not been disassembled. (staple coatings may have chipped away or rebending stapled may have structurally weakened them (ie have you ever snapped metal by repeatedly bending it?) and opened them to rust easier.Putting the staples back in may have widened some of the staple holes making the pages more loose on the staples, making them more at risk of further loosening or detaching.

And so on. Disassembling is NOT a simple thing to do without some destruction.



Present to me an argument strong enough to change my mind on disassembly. If you can then I would imagine it would be strong enough to change the minds of many. Heck, if it is that good I will help you shout it from the rooftops!

See above. Personally I would like to know what is different about two or so years ago now that has changed them from disassembly is resto to well unless there is proveable resto then disassembly is not in itself resto since nothing has been added or taken away? The only thing I can see is that CGC changed their mind for whatever reason and Nelson agreed and what those two say goes. Oddly enough both are for profit interests so EXPANDING the criteria of what isn't restoration increases their business. And everyone knows what a huge difference a blue label means over a green or purple label.

Heck what better way to unstigmatize restoration than to essentially change the definitions of it? Thus you get the cute little catch phrases like "conservation", "Nothing was added or taken away", "proactive conservation", etc. All of this is complete and utter rubbish though. whether or not something added or taken away the book has been altered for an existing state to a PRESUMED original condition. Further because they are basically using visual indicators only as a means of detecting restoration they are ignoring possible microscopic changes in structure that may be taking place. Of course developing or improving procedures for the detection of restorative techniques cost time and money or possibly education they do not have it is much easier to just say something it not reliably detectable.

Take pressing for example, is any one going to say that heat, moisture, and pressure, no matter how carefully done, will leave absolutely no detectable signs? That's like saying that the perfect crime can be committed when in fact we all know that it is virtually impossible not to leave some clue that one was at a crime scene. Law enforcement would be a hopeless mess if scientists and law enforcement weren't aware of the nature of humans and their activity. Like I said though this would mean taking money out of their pockets since it is easier to be lazy and convince people that it is an impossible task and a unwinable battle than to be proactive.

Everyone know delisting resto means more money in the pocket for everyone and it is easy to make a convincing people of fantastic stories of nothing added or taken away. Cognitive Dissonance will take care of the rest. Heck that dissonance can be taken away too because they can go out into the raw world and argue about condition and resto that fits the real world, get the price down, then spend a few bucks taking it apart squishing it, etc sending it off to CGC and getting those extra bucks. Money does alot to take your worries away.

This whole current view on restoration reminds me of the movie Training Day. Denzel Washington's character cut some corners to get the bad guys, got the results, which made it easier to cut corners the next time. Soon the lines became so blurred that he didn't even realize he had cross them. Everyone feared Washington's character to him everyone became prey ... until Ethan Hawke's character came along and, even though it was hard, he did the right thing.

So IMO the only thing that can be done take your lumps and tell CGC and their pundits they are wrong. Get out there and prove that the real marketplace wants nothing to do with Nelson and his history destroying tactics. The current views of CGC and practices of Nelson are further dividing the community and destroying ANY chance of restoration gaining any acceptance in the hobby. This is a bad thing because formally trained restoration experts will be needed if we want our books to survive the ages.

[Mariner]

Awesome post Davenport. Correct on so many levels.

I often think of a paralel to all of this...a great novel by Phillip K. Dick, "The Man in the High Tower".

One of the main characters is a Japanese dealer of American "antiquities" who discovers that most, if not all of his "antiques" he deals in are actually manufactured gee-gaws from modern manufacturers.

We are so there right now in this hobby of ours.

Any book that has been messed with in even the most inobtrusive fashion is still not truly authentic. Not even real. In the true sense of the definition of that word.

Any degree of restoration or tampering is still just that; restoration or tampering.

I will still take a one-owner mid-grade book and be proud to add it to my short or long-box over any form of Frankenbook.; Any day, any week, any month, any year.


What you like is one thing. But something is "Not even real" if it's counterfeited, which is the case in the story you reference. Walk around the homes of the truly rich and you will see many antiquities which have been "messed with". You may prefer a mid-grade untouched book to a repaired pre-columbian statue, but that doesn't make it a "manufactured gee-gaw" to anyone but you.

[Mariner]

And who does CGC think the "prevailing marketplace" is? I have been around since 1979 and I don't ever recall being asked by any of the big fish my opinions on ANYTHING in the industry. IMO CGC's opinion does not come from the whole market only the market that buys their services and supports the professionally graded market. They talk to the big fish that handle the high profile books worth lots of money and attention. They are not talking to to the hundreds of regular store owners and thousands collectors that make up the majority of the marketplace.

Hell I doubt 90% of the collectors have any clue about what people have done and continue to do to comics to make more money or get more fame. This lack of knowledge is taken as indifference and used to make it look like people like myself that have a very broad opinion on what constitutes as that whacky minority. I don't know how many times the CGC/Nelson pundits have voiced that people who consider such and such work as restoration as "the vocal minority"



The staples will be changed and if actually removed straightened and re-bent into position there is absolutely zero chance that they will be exactly as before disassembly. Unless you straighten the forks of the staples right out there is zero chance that the openings will not be altered on replacement. Disassembly id a destructive process and while it can be done with virtually no detectable damage it is conceivable that the grade will not go down.

Other that restoration I don't know why anyone would disassemble a book. What other reasons are there? Just what is being done? Have parts been swapped out?

To me I would absolutely want to know if a book has been disassembled even if nothing has apparently been done to it. More than likely it would result in no sale because not know what was done or why the book was taken apart is more concerning than knowing restoration was done to it. Most importantly it is a destructive process and could point to concerns for the future structural stability of a book. I would treat a disassembled book entirely different than a exact same copy that has not been disassembled. (staple coatings may have chipped away or rebending stapled may have structurally weakened them (ie have you ever snapped metal by repeatedly bending it?) and opened them to rust easier.Putting the staples back in may have widened some of the staple holes making the pages more loose on the staples, making them more at risk of further loosening or detaching.

And so on. Disassembling is NOT a simple thing to do without some destruction.




See above. Personally I would like to know what is different about two or so years ago now that has changed them from disassembly is resto to well unless there is proveable resto then disassembly is not in itself resto since nothing has been added or taken away? The only thing I can see is that CGC changed their mind for whatever reason and Nelson agreed and what those two say goes. Oddly enough both are for profit interests so EXPANDING the criteria of what isn't restoration increases their business. And everyone knows what a huge difference a blue label means over a green or purple label.

Heck what better way to unstigmatize restoration than to essentially change the definitions of it? Thus you get the cute little catch phrases like "conservation", "Nothing was added or taken away", "proactive conservation", etc. All of this is complete and utter rubbish though. whether or not something added or taken away the book has been altered for an existing state to a PRESUMED original condition. Further because they are basically using visual indicators only as a means of detecting restoration they are ignoring possible microscopic changes in structure that may be taking place. Of course developing or improving procedures for the detection of restorative techniques cost time and money or possibly education they do not have it is much easier to just say something it not reliably detectable.

Take pressing for example, is any one going to say that heat, moisture, and pressure, no matter how carefully done, will leave absolutely no detectable signs? That's like saying that the perfect crime can be committed when in fact we all know that it is virtually impossible not to leave some clue that one was at a crime scene. Law enforcement would be a hopeless mess if scientists and law enforcement weren't aware of the nature of humans and their activity. Like I said though this would mean taking money out of their pockets since it is easier to be lazy and convince people that it is an impossible task and a unwinable battle than to be proactive.

Everyone know delisting resto means more money in the pocket for everyone and it is easy to make a convincing people of fantastic stories of nothing added or taken away. Cognitive Dissonance will take care of the rest. Heck that dissonance can be taken away too because they can go out into the raw world and argue about condition and resto that fits the real world, get the price down, then spend a few bucks taking it apart squishing it, etc sending it off to CGC and getting those extra bucks. Money does alot to take your worries away.

This whole current view on restoration reminds me of the movie Training Day. Denzel Washington's character cut some corners to get the bad guys, got the results, which made it easier to cut corners the next time. Soon the lines became so blurred that he didn't even realize he had cross them. Everyone feared Washington's character to him everyone became prey ... until Ethan Hawke's character came along and, even though it was hard, he did the right thing.

So IMO the only thing that can be done take your lumps and tell CGC and their pundits they are wrong. Get out there and prove that the real marketplace wants nothing to do with Nelson and his history destroying tactics. The current views of CGC and practices of Nelson are further dividing the community and destroying ANY chance of restoration gaining any acceptance in the hobby. This is a bad thing because formally trained restoration experts will be needed if we want our books to survive the ages.


"Everyone know delisting resto means more money in the pocket for everyone."

I don't see how you reach that conclusion. The number of books restored is nothing compared to the number of books unrestored. And grading companies make money off volume more than anything else. At every convention, and on ebay, you see people chasing encapsulated books with high label numbers, even if the book is still available new in their LCS. One of the easiest things to impart to a new collector/investor is not to buy restored comics. So, the wider the definition of resto, the more likely they will buy comics that are high grade and untouched without taking the time to learn and consider many other factors.

[oxbladder]

"Everyone know delisting resto means more money in the pocket for everyone."

I don't see how you reach that conclusion. The number of books restored is nothing compared to the number of books unrestored. And grading companies make money off volume more than anything else. At every convention, and on ebay, you see people chasing encapsulated books with high label numbers, even if the book is still available new in their LCS. One of the easiest things to impart to a new collector/investor is not to buy restored comics. So, the wider the definition of resto, the more likely they will buy comics that are high grade and untouched without taking the time to learn and consider many other factors.

Yes the number of books unrestored are greater than one not unrestored. There is money to be made in delisting resto because if it is not resto it is not disclosed or noted and all those books that are ALREADY in high grade can get a little nip and tuck and be passed off as a higher grade. Drop it in a hard plastic cover and add a blue label with a higher grade and voila it is manufactured gold.

What worse is with CGC okaying certain techniques you have opened the door to amateurs applying this to their books then throwing them up on eBay and unsuspecting people buying them. Say they detect the work once they have the book in hand. What results? Much anger, etc and resto becomes even more stigmatized which makes it harder for legitimate sellers to make money and formally trained restoration experts to work in the hobby. Right now the market has been manipulated into a position to where long time dealers cannot even sell books for what they are worth because people have been conned into thinking you can't trust anything that is not in a slab because it has likely been worked on. A lovely double standard and a beautiful way for Nelson and CGC to make wads of cash as well as those who can afford to play these games.

These amateurs may also ruin books with their unprofessional practices. Heck even "the pros" like Nelson have ruined press jobs. So the chances are that we could lose a great many books to these "simple" nip and tuck jobs. How much would that suck?

I personally would NEVER encourage anyone to NOT buy a restored book because that is their choice and I believe that we need formally trained restoration professionals in this hobby because frankly there is no way that our books are going to survive long into the future without them.

The problem is now that you have some people that say delisting certain techniques makes sense because nothing is added or taken away when that may not be entirely true because they have done no research to prove this fact. They have not done everything necessary to make these determinations including actually getting out there to talk to J6P or your regular LCS that are not part of the power clique in the industry. Since the power clique and their supporters don't have issues with the delisting assume that these guys are representative of the whole hobby and don't do what they need to back up their POV. Their profit margins, quantity of submissions, and how the books are received on the market are the measures. However, with admittedly many folks not knowing about resto they have no clue that they might be buying books that have had work done to them when their goal was to have all original.

The funniest thing is things like pressing are supposed to be impossible to catch on a regular basis but so are things like solvent cleaning, trimming, and a few other techniques but yet those remain as either resto or destruction that are duly noted with different colour labels and remain steadfastly on resto lists. So while they are more than willing to try and better detection on some things they have thrown up their hands and changed the rules on other techniques simply because they believe nothing was added or taken away even though they have not absolutely confirmed this.

I say buy restored books if you like. I have no issue with professional restoration. I have a problem with people TELLING me that changing a condition of a book is not restoring it. Heck I firmly agree that certain techniques should be weighted very differently. I personally would have no issue with buying pressed books, for example, as it happens incidentally all the time in my collection just from storing books but I would still like to know what has been done intentionally so I can be aware of how to handle the book in the future. Like i said if a book has been disassembled and pressed I would treat it far differently than another book in the same grade that is all original simply because I know that it has had stressful procedures applied to it.

And so forth.

[oxbladder]

So, the wider the definition of resto, the more likely they will buy comics that are high grade and untouched without taking the time to learn and consider many other factors.

So you are saying throw our hands up in the air and narrow the definitions because it is just easier? That is exactly why I say there is money to be made. Turning your back on an issue never solves it. My goal is to educate people and through this education earn more respect for restoration. Narrowing the definitions of restoration are not the way to do it, throwing our hands up in the air is not the way to do it, and definitely telling people to not buy restored books is not the way to do it ... especially when they have no idea what restoraion is and how to look for it.

I would rather people be made aware of it and the differing views on it and letting them make up their own minds on how they value the different techniques. Education and experience goes a hell of alot further than ignorance.

[68 Guns]

What type of resto is cgc going to say is not restoration next? How is it that a for profit service, gets to write the rules for what is or isn't restoration?


CGC sets the rules for what it considers restoration.They apply to books CGC slabs,not to the overall market.
If work is done that they don't consider restoration,but you do,then you can consider the book restored.A CGc label is not the end all/be all of the market. If a book is in a blue label,but has had work done that you consider resto,then treat it as a PLOD and pay accordingly.

[MrBedrock]

Disassembling is NOT a simple thing to do without some destruction.

Neither is reading.

[Mariner]

Neither is reading.

:p

Good point. Some of these posts sound really reasonable, and then suddenly the guy will just go off and spew a stream of consciousness hate-filled rant about books that have been "touched," and I just go whoa, where did that come from? Some people like things that have never been read, or never touched. Some guys are like that about women, too, but in my experience the untouched ones are not always the most desirable. (just as with high grade comics)

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Wow OX good to see you. That was way over worded, but I am with you. Especially
"They have not done everything necessary to make these determinations including actually getting out there to talk to J6P or your regular LCS that are not part of the power clique in the industry."

I am feeling more like the matter is not restro and the value, that is at this time attached to PLOD (and how does CGC let PLOD become Purple label of death) and Green as HOW LONG WILL IT LAST? And what is acceptable to allow the book to live. Right now we have CGC stating what the book is and Ciccione? (SP, sorry) as the expert on what is best for the books. Hell, this is kinda funny because I remember when it was simply Plypropylene vs the other bags.


The big question is what is best not for the holder of the book, but what is best for the book. And are they the same? The books need to last, our hobby is dying, how do we protect it for prosperity?

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

The real problem is that soon ALL books will be readable. I am trying to build a run right, and at any moment it can be reprinted. The value of said run or just the #1-3 or the keys will appreciate, but the stories are still great right? How do you know? The old school answer is you don't until you have the run. I didn't agree with STU on the G.A. art and stories being different until I read the G.A. Marvel Milestones. Now I have no interest in those books except as "keys" & $. The stories may be classics but not to my taste. My opinion now is part of the market place (and I doubt I'm alone) and is delineated by my having read the books I couldn't before, the untouchable $ books. What makes them collectible to me? Do I really need to have a book that is before my time, for instance a GA Cap or Gl? No, not really, they are just Keys. Just antiques. Coins or stamps. Do y'all ever think how silly it is to collect stamps or coins or wicker furniture?

So it all comes down to worship of the comics that lasted and the HG collectors comics are worth more because and only because they will last longer. But not longer than the person who collects them. Maybe that's the reason for the pedigree collector's being so important?

Once again we get back to COLLECT WHAT YOU LOVE. Well I love a lot of stories that aren't worth a dang. And it hurts me if, and I'm not saying this is true, that the books during the period when I read and collected are now garbage. Not worth 1/10th cover. To have really been above the curve I would have had to be into EC or Charlton or be pro actively collecting the $ books. But I enjoyed my comic purchases, at least then, when I got home with the light coming in the window and plenty of time to read.

I'd rather pass those many books I read, to be read many more times, and die poor than hold onto a book that means nothing to me and sacrifice the library I've built, & invested in at the loss of the many I could have bought. And I'm pretty damn sure that the G.A. collectors feel the same. Even if they can afford the books they loved there are still those book, maybe reprints, maybe even modern or GN that they want close when it all gets dark. I have books in slabs that mean nothing and are worth more than most of my runs, but what is worth more? What's more precious?

It's not about CGC restro or $ It's about worship. What do you love?
I love DD, but I also once loved other things and they are gone. I loved the Miami Dolphins at one time, but the team now has nothing to do with what I knew. The DD I know is Miller's. The early DD run I've been building means nothing to me. Why should I collect it? It's pattern recognition, market placement, share recognition, Should I slab my CD's? My art books? My Spectrum books? My atari cartridges? My albums? How long until CGC albums?

I know what you big $ collectors are now, your just collectors. Like me. Nothing more, nothing less. I'll keep my books to pass on and y'all do the same. You love the old books and recognize your place. Many of you have gotten caught in this current re franchising and are unsure of your place in it. I am envious and feel sorry for you at the same time. At any point these words and opinions you have may be the words of history.


And that's all I have for tonight. If I offended you PM me. And I'm sorry ahead of time.

[MrBedrock]

I'll keep my books to pass on and y'all do the same.
Words of wisdom!

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

OX


DAVENPORT


Thanks.

[oxbladder]

Neither is reading.

Of course. Especially when your cat jumps on the book you are reading.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Thanks BEDROCK.

And I said OX was being wordy, geez, that's the pot calling the kettle black.

OX - or your new puppy is constantly trying to eat them.

[oxbladder]

Right now we have CGC stating what the book is and Ciccione? (SP, sorry) as the expert on what is best for the books.

Actually it is CGC and Matt Nelson as the big voices. Susan Ciccone has very different views from Matt Nelson and CGC ... very different.

[toz1960]

I like my books to be original.If it is perfect,so much the better.

Lost of good arguments here both ways but lets compare the comic collecting hobby to a couple of "other" areas of collecting.

Take furniture,probably the first thing anyone ever collected.It's functional so you can sit in a 17th century chair.If it has been used that increases the value as long as it HAS NOT been "altered" or "restored".Strip off that original finish or replace a piece of wood and the price drops by over half.The key word here is "original".It is or it isn't.

Now look at antique cars.Once again an item that you can actually use.A 1957 Bel Air can have a 100 point restoration with numbers matching "new old stock" or it can have reproduction parts.The car will still preform the same but the one that has the NOS parts will be worth more.(As a byline,you can build a 1957 Bel Air without having 1 original part on it,but it won't be a REAL Bel Air).Then there is the survivor,a 100% original car with even the original tires on it.This doesn't happen too often but it has happened.

Now which car does the collector want?That depends.Just to drive around and cruise in the one that has been built with aftermarket parts would do fine.The trophy hunter wants the one "restored" with NOS parts.The museum wants the survivor that is all original.( One thing I always hated to see was a nice old Fords rebuilt with a Chevy 350 in it.I understand why but I still hated to see it.I also hated to see someone take a 1939 Zeypher that was all original and make a Custom Hot Rod out of it.It would fetch BIG bucks but it is still a travesty).

Does restoration have a place in comic book collecting? Yes,but,only to a certain degree.And it should be FULLY disclosed.

Preservation? Yes,but see above and only in the most needed cases.

Any work done to a comic means that it is no longer original,it has been "altered" and needs to be fully disclosed.

If it is not noted by the seller,that seller is therefore a crook,plain and simple(If said seller knows,another can of worms here).

cgc needs to add another label for altered books.Anything else means it's just about the money and there is no reason not to have an "altered" label.

Baby poo orange would work.

[stupidman]

Does restoration have a place in comic book collecting? Yes,but,only to a certain degree.And it should be FULLY disclosed.

Preservation? Yes,but see above and only in the most needed cases.

Any work done to a comic means that it is no longer original,it has been "altered" and needs to be fully disclosed.

If it is not noted by the seller,that seller is therefore a crook,plain and simple(If said seller knows,another can of worms here).

cgc needs to add another label for altered books.Anything else means it's just about the money and there is no reason not to have an "altered" label.


#clap#

[arexcrooke]

#rofl#

I guess de Nile ain't just a river in Egypt anymore is it?
I guess im too stupid to not reply to this but here it goes:
1-What has been added to the book?
2-Would you rather CGC ass around and make guesses on what might or might not have been done to a book?
If you cant tell anything was done, how can you CONCLUSIVLY (sic) call it restoration.

Im not saying I agree with it. In fact, i consider dissasembly to be resto. However, how can you lael something and not be 100% sure that that technique was or was not done?

[Mariner]

I like my books to be original.If it is perfect,so much the better.

Lost of good arguments here both ways but lets compare the comic collecting hobby to a couple of "other" areas of collecting.

Take furniture,probably the first thing anyone ever collected.It's functional so you can sit in a 17th century chair.If it has been used that increases the value as long as it HAS NOT been "altered" or "restored".Strip off that original finish or replace a piece of wood and the price drops by over half.The key word here is "original".It is or it isn't.

Now look at antique cars.Once again an item that you can actually use.A 1957 Bel Air can have a 100 point restoration with numbers matching "new old stock" or it can have reproduction parts.The car will still preform the same but the one that has the NOS parts will be worth more.(As a byline,you can build a 1957 Bel Air without having 1 original part on it,but it won't be a REAL Bel Air).Then there is the survivor,a 100% original car with even the original tires on it.This doesn't happen too often but it has happened.

Now which car does the collector want?That depends.Just to drive around and cruise in the one that has been built with aftermarket parts would do fine.The trophy hunter wants the one "restored" with NOS parts.The museum wants the survivor that is all original.( One thing I always hated to see was a nice old Fords rebuilt with a Chevy 350 in it.I understand why but I still hated to see it.I also hated to see someone take a 1939 Zeypher that was all original and make a Custom Hot Rod out of it.It would fetch BIG bucks but it is still a travesty).

Does restoration have a place in comic book collecting? Yes,but,only to a certain degree.And it should be FULLY disclosed.

Preservation? Yes,but see above and only in the most needed cases.

Any work done to a comic means that it is no longer original,it has been "altered" and needs to be fully disclosed.

If it is not noted by the seller,that seller is therefore a crook,plain and simple(If said seller knows,another can of worms here).

cgc needs to add another label for altered books.Anything else means it's just about the money and there is no reason not to have an "altered" label.

Baby poo orange would work.

For the most part, you had me. But you lost me again at "baby poo orange."

Of course you may be joking, but it seems like very often you'll hear a guy say something like it's up to the buyer whether he likes a book even if it's restored, but then you want them to be forced to put their books in a "poo" label.

[toz1960]

The "Baby Poo" orange comment refers to the color cgc could use for an "altered" label.Use any color you see fit,it's just the color that came to me.(Probably because I was riding my 2 year old grand daughter on my shoulders right before I posted that line and she farted).

[Mariner]

The "Baby Poo" orange comment refers to the color cgc could use for an "altered" label.Use any color you see fit,it's just the color that came to me.(Probably because I was riding my 2 year old grand daughter on my shoulders right before I posted that line and she farted).

Oooh, that brought back happily buried memories of my own kids.

As for what to put on a label to let a person know something's been added to a book or changed about a book, I would go for the radical suggestion of using not colors but letters. You know, like in a combination of letters that form... words.

[stupidman]

Oooh, that brought back happily buried memories of my own kids.

As for what to put on a label to let a person know something's been added to a book or changed about a book, I would go for the radical suggestion of using not colors but letters. You know, like in a combination of letters that form... words.


We all know why CGC won't do that - because newbies are stupid:

"CGC used to put some grading notes on the label, but hasn't done this since 2001, when dealers asked for the notes to be removed from the label. The argument was that dealers were saying that it was confusing for customers, and customers were complaining. These customers thought that the grade given was not the final grade, that it was before you subtracted the grading notes from the stated grade. Why anyone would think CGC would operate in this manner is unknown, but apparently it occurred so frequently that CGC did what the dealers asked.

CGC does not put the traditional alphabetical grade on the label anymore, the alphabetic descriptive grade (NM = near mint, VG = very good, etc.) was dropped when they revised their labels in 2004. Here's Steve Borock's explanation for the change: "The quick answer and bottom line here is that the grade needed to be bigger so people could see it from far away. It was a pain, at conventions, to see the grade on the label on a sellers wall from in front of their table. Also, Nomenclature was removed, not only to make the grade bigger but it was fast becoming absolete to many buyers of certified comics. When we give out grades over the phone we don't say 3.5 VG minus, we just say 3.5. It is very rare that I hear a customer talking to me about a grade and saying very fine to near mint, they just say 9.0. Finally, and you may not believe this, but we have gotten calls from people who are new to comics and hate anything with a minus next to it. One guy did not care that his book was a 3.5, he just did not understand why he had a minus sign, what he called a negative, on his book"

[Davenport]

I guess im too stupid to not reply to this but here it goes:
I'll give these questions a shot. All in the spirit of friendly open discussion.


1-What has been added to the book?
A new history is added. An impact to a book's historical and physical life.


2-Would you rather CGC ass around and make guesses on what might or might not have been done to a book?
The simplest thing to do would be to ask. Have a space on the submission form with a direct "Was this item altered prior to submission?" question.

For expert examiners there should be indicators of whether or not a treatment was applied. Add up the indicators, and with enough indicators present "probably not" becomes "probably".

A "probably" might warrant a phone call to the submittor. Get a "yes, work was done" and "probably" becomes definitely. A " I just bought it and don't know" response and you're still left with "probably".

Maybe a probability scale could be developed for various Treatments. It couldn't be any more subjective than the "grade" scale currently in use.


If you cant tell anything was done, how can you CONCLUSIVLY (sic) call it restoration.
Then don't. Describe alterations by their Treatment name. Consumers can take it from there.


Im not saying I agree with it. In fact, i consider dissasembly to be resto. However, how can you lael something and not be 100% sure that that technique was or was not done?
With a consensus about indicators present. The exact same way "grade" is concluded. "Grade" is never 100% either, as we all know.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Could they even do that? I mean aren't they saying that certain things such as re assembly not restoration because they cannot 100% detect these things?

As far as a probability rating, I'm not a business man, but I don't think that ever stating that your "Professional service" cannot be certain about anything within the realm of said service is a positive. The more obvious strategies to follow as far as problems (for a young and building entity)are considered is to:
1. Deny it exists
2. Down play it's existence
3. Deny that it's existence effects the system it adheres to.
4. Segregate the population through rewards & punishments.
5. And finally to ostracize the "Radicals" that don't agree with the set rules.

From what I know that's pretty basic politics, although I'm sure I missed many many additions to the list as far as tactics go. But that seems like basic strategy to me.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

It's worked for the big Governments of the world since there have benn "Big Governments."

[toz1960]

Could they even do that? I mean aren't they saying that certain things such as re assembly not restoration because they cannot 100% detect these things?

As far as a probability rating, I'm not a business man, but I don't think that ever stating that your "Professional service" cannot be certain about anything within the realm of said service is a positive. The more obvious strategies to follow as far as problems (for a young and building entity)are considered is to:
1. Deny it exists
2. Down play it's existence
3. Deny that it's existence effects the system it adheres to.
4. Segregate the population through rewards & punishments.
5. And finally to ostracize the "Radicals" that don't agree with the set rules.

From what I know that's pretty basic politics, although I'm sure I missed many many additions to the list as far as tactics go. But that seems like basic strategy to me.

Defination of Politics: poli in Latin means many,tics are blood sucking insects.That's what government is made of.

[Davenport]

Independent 3rd party grading should have the intent and will to be thorough and unbiased. Submittors should understand there'll be a high degree of scrutiny for any and all alterations.

Maybe something like this (if you insert "comic books" where it says "currency").
http://www.pcgscurrency.com/g_overview.html

At least they give the impression that there's no green-light for Paper Mechanics to have a go at gaming their system. That's a start.

[Mariner]

We all know why CGC won't do that - because newbies are stupid:

Stupid newbies are also the reason so many encapsulated copies of valiant comics, modern age and freshly printed comics are sold.

[stupidman]

Stupid newbies are also the reason so many encapsulated copies of valiant comics, modern age and freshly printed comics are sold.

Right. That's why the labels have to be dumbed-down, to accomodate them. Much easier than actually educating them on the hobby.

[Mariner]

Right. That's why the labels have to be dumbed-down, to accomodate them. Much easier than actually educating them on the hobby.

"Accomodate" them how?

Seems like the most common result of the "dumbed-down" labels is to make the stupid newbies clamor for anything blue label 9.8 no matter how worthless it really is. Seems like this doesn't accomodate the stupid newbies so much as it accomodates people selling to stupd newbies.

[clayface]

#allhailme#That's about right.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Wait a minute, why are modern 9.8's so valueless. You guys seem to be de-valuing my Books of Magic 9.8's.

[toz1960]

Wait a minute, why are modern 9.8's so valueless. You guys seem to be de-valuing my Books of Magic 9.8's.


If you like it then that's fine.Kinda like collecting what you like to read.The point is that a brand new comic that is not a key or special for any reason,is not,I repeat,IS NOT worth more in 9.8 cgc than it is in 9.8 raw.The only reason it is higher is that it cost around $20 to have it graded and slabbed.The price of an Action #1 that has been slabbed does not have $1000 tacked onto the price.

Now I'm not knocking new books that hace been graded.I have some myself.I have several Liberty Meadows graded,a Thor,Son of Asgard,a Dreadstar Annual #1 and some others.

Just don't lose sight of what it is and the motivation behind it.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Dude, I know. I was just saying what you re-said. Yeah it's not worth the price of slabbing, but I bought the plastic case. Why, why not? I like the stories. If the poop hits the fan, those are the books to hang on the wall next to the animal fat candles. If the poop never makes it to the fan, I've got a nice collection of stories for someone to widdle through.