Is there a concerted effort to stifle dissent at CGC?

[clayface]

It seems that the same thing happens to every pressing thread, You'll get about five pro pressers who gang up on one anti pressing/pro disclosure person, using various tactics. Humor, personal attacks, diversion etc. Any thoughts?

[The Cooler King]

I would try taking this up on the CGC board, and see what happens

there. I find it better to take it to the source,rather than to outsource.

[Deathlok]

I was banned from there, so there must be a conspiracy.

[Quato]

It seems that the same thing happens to every pressing thread, You'll get about five pro pressers who gang up on one anti pressing/pro disclosure person, using various tactics. Humor, personal attacks, diversion etc. Any thoughts?

I discovered an interesting thing one day. If you read about cults and how they brain wash people, CGC advocates use similar tactics. Instead of the focus being an ethereal God, they use the ethereal comic book grade as their focus. if you are not pursuing the highest goals of that CGC 10.0, they try to reprogram you. I contend that the CGC advocates are essentially cult members.

Q

[clayface]

That is an interesting point.

[clayface]

I would try taking this up on the CGC board, and see what happens

there. I find it better to take it to the source,rather than to outsource.
I know exactly what would happen. Apologist would attack and misdirect the thread anywhere but in the direction of an honest debate. I do feel that it would be impolite to bring it up there, anyway.

[The Cooler King]

I know exactly what would happen. Apologist would attack and misdirect the thread anywhere but in the direction of an honest debate. I do feel that it would be impolite to bring it up there, anyway.


I see, you know this because you have tired, or is it that it is easier to

just#blahblah##blahblah##blahblah# than to put any real effort into action. I see no

reason as to your not taking this to the CGC boards, unless you had

no intention, other than to complain here. I say try it, if nothing else

you may be able to find out "who the dill-weeds" are.

[stupidman]

I see, you know this because you have tired, or is it that it is easier to

just#blahblah##blahblah##blahblah# than to put any real effort into action. I see no

reason as to your not taking this to the CGC boards, unless you had

no intention, other than to complain here. I say try it, if nothing else

you may be able to find out "who the dill-weeds" are.

Have you read this thread? He knows this because he HAS tried.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2455592&page=1&fpart=1

(I believe that thread prompted this thread)

[The Cooler King]

This is not the same as starting a thread that ask the question as it

has been asked here. I say take the fight to them, on their home turf,

or admit defeat and resign yourself to the sidelines. Doing anything else

is disingenuous.

[Red Hook]

Have you read this thread? He knows this because he HAS tried.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2455592&page=1&fpart=1

(I believe that thread prompted this thread)

Amazing how the wagons get circled by the same six or so individuals every time.

You know what my definition of pressing is at this point?

Free money.

(Now let's see how long it takes for the same gang of Press Club members to show up here...)

[clayface]

This is not the same as starting a thread that ask the question as it

has been asked here. I say take the fight to them, on their home turf,

or admit defeat and resign yourself to the sidelines. Doing anything else

is disingenuous.
So let me get straight...when a pressing thread or a thread questioning cgc board tactics gets started over there, it get squashed and diverted. So when someone starts a thread over here, they're told to go over there and talk about it? Excuse me, but who made you boss?

[clayface]

It's funny, I started a dill weed thread as purely a joke in another section and it got locked because people obviously didn't see the irony in it. That other board appears to have a long reach.

[razorz000]

I don't think any other forum board has a reach here UNLESS brought and as I recall this is the COMIC CORRAL not the CGC CORRAL..

If pressing books is an issue (to some it is) then bring up the subject at hand .. Just make you look stupid for stirring up muddy water that doesn't need to be stirred.

[clayface]

If you don't like it, tough.

[Mariner]

yes

[jaydeebee]

Well I did my best to get through that Pressing Thread on the CGC board, and now I have a headache...thanks. (Lord they must think everyone has the attention span of a gnat with all those quotes inside of quotes inside of quotes inside of....ahhH!) :eek:

Now where was I? *buzzzz buzzzz* Oh yeah! :o

On the issue of pressing comics, I have say that it would depend on the degree of pressing before it would become an important issue to me. For example, if it were simply a case of putting a comic between two heavy objects for a while to smooth out a crease or roll, I might not give a rat's A--. :)

However if it were a more severe action, such as disassembling, pressing and reassembling, I'd definitely want to know. It probably wouldn't stop me from buying it, assuming it was something I could afford, but I would want to know and the fact that some of the authenticity of the comic had been altered, I'd be less likely to pay a premium for it. JMHO #blahblah#

[68 Guns]

I have about 11,000 posts over there,and I don't think theres much stifling going on.In fact,my limited experiance here is that at least one moderator here has a much quicker trigger than any of the CGC board do.With a much larger audiance,they get a more varied group of posters. Some are pro- pressing,some are anti,and some prefer to take it on a case by case basis.There are a few who try to intimidate people that disagree with their views,but thats natural and I'm sure this board will attract some of that ilk as it grows,if it hasn't already.

[jaydeebee]

I have about 11,000 posts over there,and I don't think theres much stifling going on.In fact,my limited experiance here is that at least one moderator here has a much quicker trigger than any of the CGC board do...

Called a moderator out on the CGC forum lately? No? Ever tried agreeing with one, that can get you in trouble as well. 11,000 posts versus one post. I wonder still why I got banned. Want to see a "hair trigger" response, I got one for ya.

Lest we forget:


jaydeebee (banned)
Just got here
Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 1

Hi, never posted here before, but nobody picks on my buddy The Charlton Guy and gets away with it, other than myself.

A few posters have suggested that CG has been banned here, due to comments made on another message forum, independent of CGC, a board on which CG is himself a moderator.

I think most persons will agree that the CGC forum has the right to limit the discussions within their own forums. But they have no jurisdiction outside of these forums as to what can and cannot be said about them or their organization. It's called Freedom of Expression, yeah that's a cliche', but it also happens to be true.

Speaking as a moderator of the Comics Corral let me assure anyone who might think otherwise, that the content of the Comics Corral will not be dictated by anyone other than the Administrator(s) and the Moderators of the Comics Corral. Lest there be any confusion.

Long live The Charlton Guy, the only Chalton Guy who matters!

(by the way, you're all invited to stop by and say Howdy!) http://boards.collectors-society.com/images/graemlins/default/hi.gif








Hair Trigger Response:


Architecht (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;) http://boards.collectors-society.com/images/general/default/adm.gif
Web Architect
Registered: 01/25/02
Posts: 4582
Loc: Chicago area


Originally Posted By: jaydeebee
Hi, never posted here before, but


Buy a banner ad next time. Banned. (rolling eyes)
Now say whatever you please about the moderation team at the Comics Corral, but there has never, ever, been a response this heavy-handed or this wrong from a mod on this forum. And if there had been or if there ever is, it will be corrected, unlike that forum where mistakes are never owned up to or corrected, just swept under the rug.

I'll step down from my high horse now...:o

[geezer]

I missed the banning when it happened. If the CGC mods didn't like the content of the post, then a warning should have been sufficient. :neutral:

[geezer]

On the subject of pressing, why would any honest seller not disclose? And no, I'm not accusing any sellers of being dishonest.

[jaydeebee]

I missed the banning when it happened. If the CGC mods didn't like the content of the post, then a warning should have been sufficient. :neutral:


04/07/08 10:18 PM

One post.
No warning.
No reprieve.

What violation of CGC's precious rules did I commit I ask you? Answer...I wasn't in with the in-crowd obviously.

I wish someone would ask Architecht to get in touch with me or at least explain his actions. Maybe the team here at the Corral isn't perfect, but what was done to me smacks of arrogance. No excuse for it. :mad:

[oxbladder]

Oh good luck trying to get "Architect" to explain himself him and Dena are the most biased "moderators" you will find on a board. They have never followed "the rules" of the forum. The thing that is really funny though is that the mods don't really need to step in very often because there are TONS of apologists/brainswashed folks that will cut you down before you leave that burning bag on Steve's doorstep.

They are so convinced that CGC forums are THE comic forums that they don't even realize that there is a whole larger comic community out there that could care less about CGC and their cult members

[clayface]

I'm curious what makes a cgc apologist an apologist? Are they just brown nosers sucking up to the BSD's for a pat on the head? Or is there some type of self interest involved? Is it philosophical or financial...or a bit of both. There's one particular brown noser who tries to disrupt every pressing or resto thread in some of the most obvious and ridiculous ways. I'm pretty certain that there's a permanent brown stain on his nose. To tell you the truth, I have little problem with CGC itself, there's some philosophical differences and grading issues and I think for the most part they get used by a lot of unethical types and that's not their fault. It the apologist who I abhor, plus , nobody like a snitch and there are a lot of snitches over there who report thing to the moderators for personal reasons and not for legitimate reasons.

[Red Hook]

Oh good luck trying to get "Architect" to explain himself him and Dena are the most biased "moderators" you will find on a board. They have never followed "the rules" of the forum. The thing that is really funny though is that the mods don't really need to step in very often because there are TONS of apologists/brainswashed folks that will cut you down before you leave that burning bag on Steve's doorstep.

They are so convinced that CGC forums are THE comic forums that they don't even realize that there is a whole larger comic community out there that could care less about CGC and their cult members

Um, if you think the mods act autonomously, you are incorrect. They're paid employees of CCG. They take their orders from above. :p

[sckao]

04/07/08 10:18 PM

One post.
No warning.
No reprieve.

What violation of CGC's precious rules did I commit I ask you? Answer...I wasn't in with the in-crowd obviously.

I wish someone would ask Architecht to get in touch with me or at least explain his actions. Maybe the team here at the Corral isn't perfect, but what was done to me smacks of arrogance. No excuse for it. :mad:

I think what's missing is the context of your post. Charlton Guy had just essentially declared war on CGC. He had linked to this board (which linked directly to the thread with his declaration of war) in his signature and had put what looked like a banner ad in his signature as well. Thus, he was banned.

Then you came on and defended CG which is your right. Unfortunately, they took your post as a massive advertisement for this board. They (or rather I and others) also weren't sure if you were CG coming back as a shill and at that point, I'm pretty sure they just didn't want to deal with someone who claimed to have CG's back and probably, HIS AGENDA.

So do you deserve another chance there? Probably.

If you had come on at a different time, you probably would not have been banned. However, CG was banned partly because he was directing traffic to this site in his signature. You coming on there and inviting everyone to come over here in the thread discussing his banning was probably not the greatest idea... :roll:

Note: Let's be clear. CG was banned because he accused CGC of criminal activities and vowed "to continue to call these issues into attention both here and on the CGC Boards".

http://www.comicscorral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=32124&postcount=113

Apparently, there was another post that was edited which was worse than this one.

[jaydeebee]

I think what's missing is the context of your post. Charlton Guy had just essentially declared war on CGC. He had linked to this board (which linked directly to the thread with his declaration of war) in his signature and had put what looked like a banner ad in his signature as well. Thus, he was banned.

#oldie#Banned and rightly so, as I stated in that post.


Then you came on and defended CG which is your right.

:roll: Good to know that I had that right. (Read it again, I was only defending CG's activities on the Comics Corral, not anything he might have done wrong on the CGC forum.)



Unfortunately, they took your post as a massive advertisement for this board. They (or rather I and others) also weren't sure if you were CG coming back as a shill and at that point, I'm pretty sure they just didn't want to deal with someone who claimed to have CG's back and probably, HIS AGENDA.

:confused: A lot of assumptions going on there, since I still don't even know what CG's so-called "agenda" is/was. Especially in light of the fact that I had signed up for the CGC account several months eariler and the fact that anyone could have easily checked here or on eBay to see that I have been using the ID "jaydeebee" since 1998 (on eBay) and since 2005 on the Corral. I mean seriously, how long would that have taken and how difficult would that have been?


So do you deserve another chance there? Probably.

:oops: Should I start holding my breath now waiting for them to correct their error now that they see they've made one? (as we did when we erroneously banned clayface because we thought he was someone else)


If you had come on at a different time, you probably would not have been banned. However, CG was banned partly because he was directing traffic to this site in his signature. You coming on there and inviting everyone to come over here in the thread discussing his banning was probably not the greatest idea... :roll:

:? CGC members aren't allowed to visit other message boards, or allowed to invite others to visit their sites?


Note: Let's be clear. CG was banned because he accused CGC of criminal activities and vowed "to continue to call these issues into attention both here and on the CGC Boards".

http://www.comicscorral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=32124&postcount=113

Apparently, there was another post that was edited which was worse than this one.

#oldie# Let me be clear. CGC was within it's RIGHTS to ban CG for what he did. Perhaps CG knew it was going to happen and took it upon himself to do something that was CLEARLY AGAINST THE RULES and accepted the consequences for what he chose to do.

I on the other hand violated no rule, not even one. Yet I was banned anyway. So it's kind of amusing for someone to say that a mod here has "quick trigger" when clearly it is the CGC forum which he must be thinking of. #dunno#

[68 Guns]

You were banned because the moderators and most forumites thought you were a shill for CG. Plain and simple. Obviously,the mods made a mistake. It's not there first,nor will it be there last.
Bad timing on your part,bad decesion on their part.
You can move on or you can harp on it.
Yes,I have called out moderators there when I thought they were mistaken,and I've never been banned for it.

[jaydeebee]

You were banned because the moderators and most forumites thought you were a shill for CG. Plain and simple. Obviously,the mods made a mistake. It's not there first,nor will it be there last.
Bad timing on your part,bad decesion on their part.
You can move on or you can harp on it.
Yes,I have called out moderators there when I thought they were mistaken,and I've never been banned for it.

Right, and I am over it and wouldn't harp on it, except that it seemed that the direction of this thread begged that event to be revisited.

I'm simply making it clear that it is the CGC forum moderators which have a "quick trigger" not the Comic Corral mods.

It's one thing to make a mistake, it's quite another to compound that mistake by not correcting it when it's pointed out. One can be forgiven, the other, not so much.
:zapd:

[sckao]

I've been on the CGC boards for about 5 years... I've been lurking on this board for a while before I actually registered (to play the games. :?)

(Although, I think I've reached the limits of my ability or patience with the games... Some are just too painful to keep playing to get a high score. Others, I've clearly been surpassed by superior players.)

It's my opinion that some of the mods here ARE pretty trigger happy. I've seen a lot of people allowed on, then summarily kicked off. I've seen a lot of threads locked and deleted. I've seen some quick bannings and temporary bannings. (Deletion of threads is a major point on all boards as it leaves no trail for others to decide if the action was warranted or not.)

Certainly more so than the CGC boards in the same time period. (Especially considering the lower traffic here.)



BTW, while it may look like I'm a mod on the CGC board if you look at the moderator list... I'm not. I'm only a very limited moderator for the VCC section.

[jaydeebee]

I've seen a lot of people allowed on, then summarily kicked off.

No you haven't. That simply is not true.

In the three year history of the current incarnation of the Comics Corral, there have only been 46 permanently banned members.

26 of those were spam-bots/spammers for mobile phones, Viagra and etc.

5 of those were shill ID's created by previously banned members.

The remaining 15 were the only "real" members who were banned in just three years. How many were banned on CGC in 3 months?

And those temporary bans you referenced are the only temp bans that have ever been issued here, I believe those members did receive some warnings prior to their banning.(although I could be mistaken there)

[jaydeebee]

Certainly more so than the CGC boards in the same time period. (Especially considering the lower traffic here.)



BTW, while it may look like I'm a mod on the CGC board if you look at the moderator list... I'm not. I'm only a very limited moderator for the VCC section.


How do you know what our traffic count is? Currently only Hoss knows that, and I'm pretty sure you aren't Hoss. You only know how many registered members we have.

And it really doesn't matter to me if you're a mod at CGC or not or if you're the CEO of CGC or VIP of PGX or UHF. I look at everyone who comes here as a new being when they arrive. I welcome everyone who comes and encourage them to have fun and that's what I want them to do. Unfortunately, over the past few months, some new members have not come here for that purpose, and it has something to do with some hard feelings from another website.

That's really too bad, because the Comics Corral really wasn't created for the purpose that a handful of people seem to think it was.

And if I seem a wee bit testy, it's because I and lot of other people have put a lot of time and effort into creating and maintaining this site, and I for one don't like people coming in here casting aspersions on that hard work. But you know what, even doing that probably won't get you banned. :o

[The Charlton Guy]

I think what's missing is the context of your post. Charlton Guy had just essentially declared war on CGC. He had linked to this board (which linked directly to the thread with his declaration of war) in his signature and had put what looked like a banner ad in his signature as well. Thus, he was banned.

Then you came on and defended CG which is your right. Unfortunately, they took your post as a massive advertisement for this board. They (or rather I and others) also weren't sure if you were CG coming back as a shill and at that point, I'm pretty sure they just didn't want to deal with someone who claimed to have CG's back and probably, HIS AGENDA.


I really need to set you straight on this one because you are way off base.

I never "declared war" on CGC.

I don't have an "agenda" that involves CGC in any way, shape or manner.

And I most certainly did NOT call CGC criminals.

I did say that I believe that they give preferential treatment to big-money players, dealers and press-meisters. And I still believe that. But so do a lot of other people. And a lot of other people have said the same thing, time and time again on multiple forums, including the CGC Forum. So yes, I said I would continue to question this preferential treatment and blind eye toward pressing and other restoration both here and on the CGC boards.

I said nothing more "horrific" than that, even in the post I deleted.

The link was set up not to attract attention to the Corral, but to attract attention to the accusations of Greg Eide, who at the time was claiming that CGC graded the books in the Eide/McDevott buy. That was obviously a bad call on my part, but I thought these accusations, if proved valid, would have serious ramifications for the hobby. The fact that these accusations have likely proved baseless is still a matter of conjecture, because CGC saw fit to ban both Eide and yours truly and we saw fit to ban Greg Eide before this could be fully discussed. Whatever.

And yes, as a couple of the more astute people on the CGC Forum guessed, I did it to provoke Eide into disclosing further information. He did not, and I got banned. Again, a big ol' whatever.

So please stop making me out to be some big "CGC-basher", because frankly, I could give a rats ass if people want to pay ridiculous prices to CGC for someone else's grading opinion on a book that may or may not be a Frankenbook.

[sckao]

No you haven't. That simply is not true.

In the three year history of the current incarnation of the Comics Corral, there have only been 46 permanently banned members.

26 of those were spam-bots/spammers for mobile phones, Viagra and etc.

5 of those were shill ID's created by previously banned members.

The remaining 15 were the only "real" members who were banned in just three years. How many were banned on CGC in 3 months?

And those temporary bans you referenced are the only temp bans that have ever been issued here, I believe those members did receive some warnings prior to their banning.(although I could be mistaken there)


Hey... I only know what I see. I came onto these boards when CG started moving discussions over here. I saw Hammer (or someone who might be Hammer) allowed on. Then banned? Then re-allowed on? Then banned again? (Maybe the order is incorrect.)

Then I saw someone else banned regarding another issue that originated on the CGC boards and which migrated here (also because of CG?) That long thread regarding trimmed books and what happened when it was brought in for purchase, etc. etc.

Then I see Watson temporarily banned. I see Bedrock getting threatened.

It gets so bad that Bedrock THINKS he's banned because he can't log on. Clearly, if that were not part of the atmosphere here recently, no one would THINK that they were banned when they were not.

Also, I don't know how many hits this board gets, but I CAN SEE THE NUMBER OF VIEWS a particular thread get.

And I checked the CGC boards. Most of those banned in the last three months were shills. It appears the only people who were banned that were not shills (as far as I know) were Kent Meredith, Goonchild (who had numerous accounts although not necessarily shills), RedHook, CG, and EIDE?

Many of the people banned in the last three months deserved to be banned in my opinion.

I'm not saying all of the mods are trigger-happy, I'm just calling it like I see it. Whether it's because of the influx of new members or something else. I can appreciate the sentiment that this is the anti-EBay board (or whatever.)

Maybe you shouldn't have invited everyone over if you didn't actually mean it?

[The Charlton Guy]

Maybe you shouldn't have invited everyone over if you didn't actually mean it?

Wrong again.

We didn't invite one single person from CGC to come here.

They came on board here of their own volition and were made welcome.

I'm sure each of them has their own reason.

Those that weren't made to feel welcome were being a pain in the ass and pissing off long-time Members here, including me.

It's really as simple as that.

[jaydeebee]

We didn't invite one single person from CGC to come here.


Um....actually, I think maybe I did. :o

[The Charlton Guy]

Whatever...#poke#

[clayface]

You know, it's funny. I really don't have a beef against cgc, other then some of their grading and changes they have made every year or so to encourage resubmissions. and the fact that I think they cheapened the hobby and turned it into a speculators greedfest. It's more the nasty little sycophants the bug me and believe me they can be downright cruel and nasty, thus my obvious contempt for them. I dislike snitches and people who gang up on one person. I think pressing without disclosure is despicable and highly unethical. The way people try to divert attention away from that is incredibly deceptive. I sometimes feel that their is an effort to disrupt threads that hit too close to home about pressing and two or three of the sycophants will go after one of the anti-pressing/full disclosure people. It happens with NOD threads too. I hate snitches and bullies and there seems to be a lot of those types involved in this effort. There is of course, honest disagreement among some but most of it is just greed heads and their sycophants protecting their turf.

[The Charlton Guy]

Hey... I only know what I see. I came onto these boards when CG started moving discussions over here. I saw Hammer (or someone who might be Hammer) allowed on. Then banned? Then re-allowed on? Then banned again? (Maybe the order is incorrect.)


And as far as Hammer/Ace goes, that was all entirely my doing.

I invited him on the first time around, banned him when his excessive baggage started getting aired out, and brought him back on to hash it out with Greg Eide. I would like to think that having him here, regardless of what are perhaps two of the longest, most convoluted threads anywhere on any discussion board, brought a lot to light.

Interestingly, Ol' Hammer has a bit to say about the whole CGC banning and shill scenario too. Take him with a grain of salt if you will, the guy can be pretty damn astute from time to time. Here, he posted this little assessment recently on Shawn's Goldcomics.com forum:

"That message board (CGC) wasn't initially set up as a "favor" to collectors. There was nothing altruistic about CGC providing the bandwidth.
This was a necessary part of their strategy. To monitor the opinions of their consumers and closely keep an ear on what their consumers suspect, then use their moles (CGC forum members who are CGC shills, yet thought of as "one of the boys" by the rest of the pack) to step in and defuse. As a control measure. Nothing more.
I've maintained this since its inception."

[stupidman]

And I checked the CGC boards. Most of those banned in the last three months were shills.

Hell yeah, 3 or 4 of them were mine!


Goonchild (who had numerous accounts although not necessarily shills), ?

Oh, then I guess mine weren't shills either, LOL! :)

[jaydeebee]

Hey... I only know what I see. I came onto these boards when CG started moving discussions over here. I saw Hammer (or someone who might be Hammer) allowed on. Then banned? Then re-allowed on? Then banned again? (Maybe the order is incorrect.)

Then I saw someone else banned regarding another issue that originated on the CGC boards and which migrated here (also because of CG?) That long thread regarding trimmed books and what happened when it was brought in for purchase, etc. etc.

Then I see Watson temporarily banned. I see Bedrock getting threatened.

It gets so bad that Bedrock THINKS he's banned because he can't log on. Clearly, if that were not part of the atmosphere here recently, no one would THINK that they were banned when they were not.

Also, I don't know how many hits this board gets, but I CAN SEE THE NUMBER OF VIEWS a particular thread get.

And I checked the CGC boards. Most of those banned in the last three months were shills. It appears the only people who were banned that were not shills (as far as I know) were Kent Meredith, Goonchild (who had numerous accounts although not necessarily shills), RedHook, CG, and EIDE?

Many of the people banned in the last three months deserved to be banned in my opinion.

I'm not saying all of the mods are trigger-happy, I'm just calling it like I see it. Whether it's because of the influx of new members or something else. I can appreciate the sentiment that this is the anti-EBay board (or whatever.)

Maybe you shouldn't have invited everyone over if you didn't actually mean it?

Let's check the record on permanent bans...

Permanent bans on the Comics Corral in 2008
FOR SPAM:
youbuy - 6/2/08
tayyab - 5/6/08
suplliers12 - 1/9/08
simon900 - 1/19/08
seller001 - 3/7/08
salmauq - 5/30/08
perkins 4/24/08
openmobiles - 3/1/08
muaz - 5/26/08
mobilenet - 4/24/08
mamanu - 2/29/08
CrazyGhost - 5/25/08
Kay123 - 4/4/08
Jeanette 0 1/17/08
henryte21 - 2/7/08
hataish 1/23/08
exesecret - 1/19/08
daustin2008 2/2/08
Alan - 5/9/08

Total - 19

Permanent bans on the Comics Corral in 2008
For RULES VIOLATIONS: (other than Spam)

wonderwoman - 5/6/08
Mrs. Clueless (shill for WW) - 5/26/08
ryan_elliott - 5/19/08 (trolling)
Robojo33 - 3/8/08
Bruno Di Gradi - 5/16/08
KWM: The one and only VoR - 6/6/08
Kabila - 2/6/08
Eide - 4/15/08
Amazing Fantasy - 5/11/08


Total - 9
but really only eight because wonderwoman and Mrs. Clueless were one in the same.

The temporary bans were for temporary problems and guess who argued for them not to be permanently banned? #hello#

Bedrock is not banned, if he's having issues signing on to the Corral, it must be a problem on his end! #dunno#

[Quato]

Well I did my best to get through that Pressing Thread on the CGC board, and now I have a headache...thanks. (Lord they must think everyone has the attention span of a gnat with all those quotes inside of quotes inside of quotes inside of....ahhH!) :eek:

Years ago I stumbled upon a messageboard dedicated to teach people how to troll. I laughed incredibly when one of the methods they suggest is pick apart a post and respond point for point and to put quotes within quotes. It is a tactic of trolls.

Q

[Quato]

Called a moderator out on the CGC forum lately? No? Ever tried agreeing with one, that can get you in trouble as well. 11,000 posts versus one post. I wonder still why I got banned. Want to see a "hair trigger" response, I got one for ya.

Lest we forget:
Hair Trigger Response:

Now say whatever you please about the moderation team at the Comics Corral, but there has never, ever, been a response this heavy-handed or this wrong from a mod on this forum. And if there had been or if there ever is, it will be corrected, unlike that forum where mistakes are never owned up to or corrected, just swept under the rug.

I'll step down from my high horse now...:o

That response sounds like he thought you were just advertising this site. Enough people do advertise their sites. It's not like you are selling backing boards and starting a thread on comic supplies every week to hock your wares. I do see people doing that.

Q

[Quato]

And as far as Hammer/Ace goes, that was all entirely my doing.

I invited him on the first time around, banned him when his excessive baggage started getting aired out, and brought him back on to hash it out with Greg Eide. I would like to think that having him here, regardless of what are perhaps two of the longest, most convoluted threads anywhere on any discussion board, brought a lot to light.

Interestingly, Ol' Hammer has a bit to say about the whole CGC banning and shill scenario too. Take him with a grain of salt if you will, the guy can be pretty damn astute from time to time. Here, he posted this little assessment recently on Shawn's Goldcomics.com forum:

"That message board (CGC) wasn't initially set up as a "favor" to collectors. There was nothing altruistic about CGC providing the bandwidth.
This was a necessary part of their strategy. To monitor the opinions of their consumers and closely keep an ear on what their consumers suspect, then use their moles (CGC forum members who are CGC shills, yet thought of as "one of the boys" by the rest of the pack) to step in and defuse. As a control measure. Nothing more.
I've maintained this since its inception."

I'd agree with him on that.

http://www.factnet.org/coercivemindcontrol.html

TACTIC 6

Create strong aversive emotional arousals in the subject by use of nonphysical punishments such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques.

Q

[68 Guns]

04/07/08 10:18 PM

One post.
No warning.
No reprieve.

What violation of CGC's precious rules did I commit I ask you? Answer...I wasn't in with the in-crowd obviously.

I wish someone would ask Architecht to get in touch with me or at least explain his actions. Maybe the team here at the Corral isn't perfect, but what was done to me smacks of arrogance. No excuse for it. :mad:


There is no record of you being banned. Strange.

[jaydeebee]

There is no record of you being banned. Strange.

Well there is this message from the moderator.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2314195&page=0&fpart=11#Post2314582

And then there is this message when I attempt to log in to my account on CGC.


Your account has been banned or locked. This is a permanent ban. If the Administrator has specified a reason for this ban, you will find it below.

Please use your back button to return to the previous page.Please note that there is no reason listed. :?

As to why there is no record of my banning, I cannot say. I can only tell you that my account is indeed banned.

[clayface]

I get a kick out of the courage a keypad gives people and how it breaks down good manners and kind behavior. . I have to wonder if some of these people would talk this way to each other in a public gathering? I tend to think not. Myself, mostly because I'm not as quick as I can be online, where I get some time to think about a response. The thing that bothers me the most about the way some of these people behave online is that I've probably behaved the same way at times and if I have, I'm certainly not proud of it.

[Quato]

Note: Let's be clear. CG was banned because he accused CGC of criminal activities and vowed "to continue to call these issues into attention both here and on the CGC Boards".

I've brought this up before. If you read all of the CGC's legal disclaimers, they are essentially selling you nothing. They are taking responsibility for nothing. You are paying them to give you an opinion which at their discretion can be based on whatever they want it to be based upon.

Why anybody would repeatedly use their service simply amazes me. I don't agree with their opinions, so that alone is grounds for me to not use their service. If I ever do get something graded, it will be too exploit all the people who revere their opinion. I will essentially be exploiting the people who have no confidence in their own opinion.

Q

[sckao]

I've brought this up before. If you read all of the CGC's legal disclaimers, they are essentially selling you nothing. They are taking responsibility for nothing. You are paying them to give you an opinion which at their discretion can be based on whatever they want it to be based upon.

Why anybody would repeatedly use their service simply amazes me. I don't agree with their opinions, so that alone is grounds for me to not use their service. If I ever do get something graded, it will be too exploit all the people who revere their opinion. I will essentially be exploiting the people who have no confidence in their own opinion.

Q

This is an interesting tangent. You're basically saying that you don't agree with their grading standards. What a shock.

However, to say that they give you nothing is simplistic. You're getting an informed opinion. You're getting a restoration check. They're counting the pages. They're supplying you with a protective case and 2 pieces of microchamber paper.

If your personal grading skills are such that you are capable of being more "accurate" than three other graders and a restoration check, then I applaud your clearly superior grading abilities. However, you haven't demonstrated your skill to me and I have no examples of your product. (While there are hundreds of thousands of examples out there of the CGC product.) Hence, your credibility with me, at least, is wanting.

That's the key to their service.

They're trying to be a neutral third party and trying to provide an accepted public grade. They don't know you're buying or selling a particular comic. They're just removing the local bias from the equation. (The local bias meaning that you think your comic grades higher because you own it... the local bias meaning I grade your comic lower because I don't want to pay as much for it.)

If an informed opinion is worthless, then the medical profession is doomed. As is the legal profession. And the engineering profession... or basically ANY PROFESSION.

You get the idea I hope.

[68 Guns]

Why would anyone use their services?
Because,like it or not,they have become the market maker.
Sell a X-Men 94 on ebay. Call it NM,and have the biggest scans allowed. A CGC blue label 9.4 with small scans will get a better price 99% of the time.
I bought an Avengers 4 off ebay,with a huge scan. Seller called it a VF. I had it slabbed and it came back a 7.5 Bought it raw for $460,slabbed it and sold it for $775.
Why do people use CGC? Because it makes them money.It's really not rocket science.
Try selling a HG key book with it being CGC'd. You'll end up leaving quite a bit of money on the table.
You are paying for their opinion and the slab itself. Rightly or not,the majority of buyers trust their opinions and are willing to pay a premium for it.

[The Charlton Guy]

Rightly or not,the majority of buyers trust their opinions and are willing to pay a premium for it.

I find that highly doubtful.

I would be willing to bet that the "majority of buyers", the vast majority (of comic book buyers that is), is made up of people who like to read comics.

[The Charlton Guy]

As opposed to the few who like staring at the cover through a plastic slab with visions of dollar signs dancing in their heads...#poke#

[oxbladder]

The thing I find funny is that I can essentially accuse CGC of buying off support by throwing CGC dinners at conventions and only get a suspension while CG didn't even go that far and he gets banned.

My issue with CGC is they are not a properly accredited assurance company yet that is what they profess to be. I have mentioned many of the problems that this brings up for me on probably every single board I have been on. Basically we have their word that they do what they say and don't have any shady things going on in the background. For all I know they may do all that they say but there is absolutely zero proof of this because they are their own police. I have no reason to take their word over any other of the big names out there in the industry because I have zero experience with them. To me with no accreditation body behind their word their words ring pretty hollow and the doubt that the many conspiracy theories bring in cannot be put to sleep and therefore remain as possibilities.

I have also seen what they have done to those people who have publicly criticized them even though they might have supported them at first. Let us not forget how this very same company now appears to have the last word on grading and restoration in the Overstreet guide even though the majority of the books out there have not been through their doors nor ever will be.

As for them just giving an opinion and not trying to influence the market ... I seem to recall some CGC ads which promote what a "value added" service they are by showing prices for certain books before and after being graded by them. If they were neutral they would avoid this regardless of the extra business it can bring them. They HAVE to know that this great fuels speculation buying and feeds the mindset that CGC is a value added service and not just three guy's opinions.

Like clayface though most of all what bothers me with the forum itself is the apologists and zealots ganging up on those who express their valid concerns. I personally would use CGC if they addressed some of my concerns since they are shared by a great number of people. They don't though and this makes me believe that they are not all that they claim and if I cannot trust their precious words how can I trust their grading opinions and service? I want them to be more than they are but as long as books come through the door and cash fills their drawers they never will change because they feel that it is the dollars that confirm their beliefs/arguments. Well they are leaving lots of money on the table and blackening lots of hearts along the way.

[68 Guns]

I find that highly doubtful.

I would be willing to bet that the "majority of buyers", the vast majority (of comic book buyers that is), is made up of people who like to read comics.


If I want to read my early Avengers,I'll read the Masterworks editions.
If I want to read my JLA,I'll break out my hardcover editions.
I can't imagine the number of original Action #1 owners that break out their copy for a good read.
I love to read comics,but thats not what I buy HG SA books for.If you are buying books simply to read,then you have no use for CGC.If you are involved in the buying and selling of books for profit,it's an essential tool.I wish it wasn't,but I also wish I hadn't sold my X-Men hoard for a new Camaro back in '81.

[The Charlton Guy]

I have no problem with anybody reading or speculating on whatever they want. Whatever floats your boat.

I was just pointing out that it is ridiculous for you to say that the majority of buyers trust CGC's opinion and their practices.

[Mariner]

This is an interesting tangent. You're basically saying that you don't agree with their grading standards. What a shock.

However, to say that they give you nothing is simplistic. You're getting an informed opinion. You're getting a restoration check. They're counting the pages. They're supplying you with a protective case and 2 pieces of microchamber paper.

If your personal grading skills are such that you are capable of being more "accurate" than three other graders and a restoration check, then I applaud your clearly superior grading abilities. However, you haven't demonstrated your skill to me and I have no examples of your product. (While there are hundreds of thousands of examples out there of the CGC product.) Hence, your credibility with me, at least, is wanting.

That's the key to their service.

They're trying to be a neutral third party and trying to provide an accepted public grade. They don't know you're buying or selling a particular comic. They're just removing the local bias from the equation. (The local bias meaning that you think your comic grades higher because you own it... the local bias meaning I grade your comic lower because I don't want to pay as much for it.)

If an informed opinion is worthless, then the medical profession is doomed. As is the legal profession. And the engineering profession... or basically ANY PROFESSION.

You get the idea I hope.

He could be saying that this particular opinion is worthless. You can agree or disagree but the same could be said about a legal firm or an individual physician without it necessarily m eaning that ANY PROFESSION is worthless.

All the things you describe are reasonable services. But when people complain about the service what I hear more often is not that the grading is too loose or too tight, but that's inconsistent, and that it seems some people consistently get better results than others with books that look to be the same grade as some others who got lesser results. That is even true of the designation restored; it is felt, because examples indicate it, that some books, and some people, get different results, than others. Some variation is inevitable. But the more variation, and the more it seems to help the boosters and knock the knockers, the more people are going to question it. There is a cult on that board which suggests people THINK they will get favorable treatment if they praise the company and its founders while flame warring anyone who criticizes. Whether it's actually true that people get favorable treatment is open to debate. But the evidence is very strong some people on that board, rightly or wrong, feel they will earn favors by heaping praise on CGC and celeb status on its founders, while going after any critics with the zeal of a scientologist.

Whether CGC or its founders have done anything to create or nurture that is open to question and debate. But there's no doubt it's happening, and that's worth questioning why.

[68 Guns]

I find that highly doubtful.

I would be willing to bet that the "majority of buyers", the vast majority (of comic book buyers that is), is made up of people who like to read comics.

Put two books side by side. One is a CGC 9.4. The other is a book you claim is a 9.4.
It is my opinion that the majority of buyers will choose the CGC over the unslabbed one. If you believe otherwise,thats your opinion.Unless you have some facts to prove you are right.
What is ridiculous is the obsession some of you have with CGC.

[oxbladder]

What is ridiculous is the obsession some of you have with CGC.

I could ask the same question. If you had two books side by side in front of you and one was CGC 9.4 and the other a 9.4 graded by the seller why would you dispute the grade unless you could not inspect either book? Why would people trust a CGC book over a seller whose grading they trusted?

Why should I trust CGC's grading over a long time dealer with a good reputation? Why are valued dealers paid LESS for a book that the buyer agrees is a certain grade while they have to pay MORE for a CGC'd copy?

Many CGC fanboys make such a big deal out of restoration and scammers ... that they are out there that you can't trust a book that is raw that you can handle and assess yourself. They play down everyone's ability to grade and that only CGC's word counts.

So I ask you who is obsessing about CGC? I buy my books RAW and prefer raw to graded. Yes this opens me up to be scammed but I am careful and when I buy online I am sure to buy from specific auctions or make sure that the seller or store has a return policy. So why the hell should I pay more for three guys opinions over one I can confirm myself? I think people have been conned into thinking there is a scammer just waiting to pounce whether online or in meatspace where one can actually handle a book of interest and confirm the grade.

Imo whether you buy raw or CGC you have to be careful and just because you may disagree with a grade doesn't mean that dealer was out to intentionally scam. Sheesh.

I think people that trust CGC opinion so much that they shut their brains off, drop their guard and open their wallets to the fullest are nuts and the ones that should be questioned over those of us questioning CGC's business model and its related market. It just gets really ridiculous sometimes what people can be made to believe in the CGC camp.

[DiceX]

My vote for the most bizzare thread ever.
Is it April 1st already?
Tell me this thread is humor and I'm totally missing it.
#shock#

[jaydeebee]

My vote for the most bizzare thread ever.
Is it April 1st already?
Tell me this thread is humor and I'm totally missing it.
#shock#

Shhhhh! Don't spoil it! :D

[sckao]

He could be saying that this particular opinion is worthless. You can agree or disagree but the same could be said about a legal firm or an individual physician without it necessarily m eaning that ANY PROFESSION is worthless.

All the things you describe are reasonable services. But when people complain about the service what I hear more often is not that the grading is too loose or too tight, but that's inconsistent, and that it seems some people consistently get better results than others with books that look to be the same grade as some others who got lesser results. That is even true of the designation restored; it is felt, because examples indicate it, that some books, and some people, get different results, than others. Some variation is inevitable. But the more variation, and the more it seems to help the boosters and knock the knockers, the more people are going to question it. There is a cult on that board which suggests people THINK they will get favorable treatment if they praise the company and its founders while flame warring anyone who criticizes. Whether it's actually true that people get favorable treatment is open to debate. But the evidence is very strong some people on that board, rightly or wrong, feel they will earn favors by heaping praise on CGC and celeb status on its founders, while going after any critics with the zeal of a scientologist.

Whether CGC or its founders have done anything to create or nurture that is open to question and debate. But there's no doubt it's happening, and that's worth questioning why.

Ridiculous. Please name the members of the cult.

What you're probably referring to is the "Nik" bump. This is a running joke that you may have misinterpreted.

CGC supposedly grades books without knowing who the submitters are. This may not be possible with known SUPER-RARE or HG books like an Edgar Church book or an Action #1, but I doubt they would know that a particular regular comic belongs to a specific person. (or would care.)

Clearly, it's an assembly line process. After seeing a new book every few minutes for days/weeks/months/years on end, I doubt they would care if a book came from you or from anyone else. They grade the book in front of them.

So again, please name the cult members. #popcorn#

[DiceX]

Shhhhh! Don't spoil it! :D

Oh, I was being nice.

[68 Guns]

I could ask the same question. If you had two books side by side in front of you and one was CGC 9.4 and the other a 9.4 graded by the seller why would you dispute the grade unless you could not inspect either book? Why would people trust a CGC book over a seller whose grading they trusted?

Can you inspect books sold on eBay or consignment sites? I can't

Why should I trust CGC's grading over a long time dealer with a good reputation? Why are valued dealers paid LESS for a book that the buyer agrees is a certain grade while they have to pay MORE for a CGC'd copy?

Many CGC fanboys make such a big deal out of restoration and scammers ... that they are out there that you can't trust a book that is raw that you can handle and assess yourself. They play down everyone's ability to grade and that only CGC's word counts.

So I ask you who is obsessing about CGC? I buy my books RAW and prefer raw to graded. Yes this opens me up to be scammed but I am careful and when I buy online I am sure to buy from specific auctions or make sure that the seller or store has a return policy. So why the hell should I pay more for three guys opinions over one I can confirm myself? I think people have been conned into thinking there is a scammer just waiting to pounce whether online or in meatspace where one can actually handle a book of interest and confirm the grade.

Imo whether you buy raw or CGC you have to be careful and just because you may disagree with a grade doesn't mean that dealer was out to intentionally scam. Sheesh.

I think people that trust CGC opinion so much that they shut their brains off, drop their guard and open their wallets to the fullest are nuts and the ones that should be questioned over those of us questioning CGC's business model and its related market. It just gets really ridiculous sometimes what people can be made to believe in the CGC camp.


Again,you can think whatever you want.
When was the last time a super HG key went on the market raw?
Either you deal with CGC or you can buy raw. Your choice.Guess it all depends what kind of books you are buying. If you are buying 1976 Yangs or Doomsday 2000,I guess you can buy raw.If I'm dropping a few hundred or more on a book,I feel safer buying a CGC book. I know the people I sell to do.

[The Charlton Guy]

Put two books side by side. One is a CGC 9.4. The other is a book you claim is a 9.4.
It is my opinion that the majority of buyers will choose the CGC over the unslabbed one.

Not if the slabbed copy costs $500 and the raw copy costs $100 and there is no discernable difference.

That would be just stupid.

As for "proof", I don't need any, because there is simply no getting around the fact that the vast majority of comic book buyers buy raw comics. Whether new or vintage.

The one million comics that CGC has graded to date is a drop in the bucket even compared to just one year's worth of comic publications.

[Mariner]

Ridiculous. Please name the members of the cult.

What you're probably referring to is the "Nik" bump. This is a running joke that you may have misinterpreted.

CGC supposedly grades books without knowing who the submitters are. This may not be possible with known SUPER-RARE or HG books like an Edgar Church book or an Action #1, but I doubt they would know that a particular regular comic belongs to a specific person. (or would care.)

Clearly, it's an assembly line process. After seeing a new book every few minutes for days/weeks/months/years on end, I doubt they would care if a book came from you or from anyone else. They grade the book in front of them.

So again, please name the cult members. #popcorn#

I said people on their board ACT like they think they will be rewarded for unadulterated praise for CGC and for bashing anyone who doesn't do the same. I do not know the names of all those people. Just look at the board however and you will see them. Anytime a person states anything less than total obeisance, someone quickly logs on with a charge that anything less than total obeisance is "ridiculous." Sort of like... well sort of like you did.

[68 Guns]

Oh, I was being nice.


We're trying to build our posts counts,to play in the arcade.
Besides,while these folks are bashing CGC,they aren't doing any harm to themselves or the nearby furry animals.

[The Charlton Guy]

I'm not bashing anybody. I'm just trying to point out how ridiculous some of your assertions are.

[DiceX]

We're trying to build our posts counts,to play in the arcade.
Besides,while these folks are bashing CGC,they aren't doing any harm to themselves or the nearby furry animals.


I don't mind someone bashing CGC if it is warranted. Lord knows I bash them. However, their service is a useful tool. To say it is all bad is shortsighted and childish. Is it silly to pay 10x guide for a Marvel comic printed in the '80s? Not my call to make, but that is the fault of 2 bidders with more money than brains, not the fault of CGC, and if they want to spend $50k on an ASM #300, they can knock themselves out.


To insinuate that the people that post on the CGC message boards are a mindless cult is comical to the point that I take offense to it. If there is a beef with a particular poster, so be it, bring it out in the open, but to lump everyone in to one pile is retarded. There is a lot of knowledge on that board. If someone here has a problem with the posters there, why the hell do they spend time reading it? Just like people that complain about how much money someone else spends on something. It's not you, your parents, or your kids, so why would anyone give a flying shit?


And for the record...I don't hide anything behind the keyboard. I pretty much say what I would say here. I'm just as quick witted in real life as I am with a little ponder time that the internet allows me. I have couth, but anyone that knows me, knows I have no problem making a fool out of someone if they are such a stooge to try to put me on the spotlight.

[Mariner]

I don't mind someone bashing CGC if it is warranted. Lord knows I bash them. However, their service is a useful tool. To say it is all bad is shortsighted and childish. Is it silly to pay 10x guide for a Marvel comic printed in the '80s? Not my call to make, but that is the fault of 2 bidders with more money than brains, not the fault of CGC, and if they want to spend $50k on an ASM #300, they can knock themselves out.



To insinuate that the people that post on the CGC message boards are a mindless cult is comical to the point that I take offense to it. If there is a beef with a particular poster, so be it, bring it out in the open, but to lump everyone in to one pile is retarded. There is a lot of knowledge on that board. If someone here has a problem with the posters there, why the hell do they spend time reading it? Just like people that complain about how much money someone else spends on something. It's not you, your parents, or your kids, so why would anyone give a flying shit?



And for the record...I don't hide anything behind the keyboard. I pretty much say what I would say here. I'm just as quick witted in real life as I am with a little ponder time that the internet allows me. I have couth, but anyone that knows me, knows I have no problem making a fool out of someone if they are such a stooge to try to put me on the spotlight.


Couldn't agree more that the service is useful in some ways. And no way is it "all bad," but I think the question is correctly raised. Is criticism of CGC in any way whatsoever met with determined resistance by some people who act as if they are either afraid of CGC being criticized or hoping that defending CGC or attacking its critics will somehow be rewarded? And the answer to that is easily found on the board sponsored by CGC. As well as here. Criticism of one or two aspects is deemed criticism of all of it. Pointing out that some people working for CGC or supporting CGC act like scientologists whenever somebody criticizes the company is not a slight of all of its customers or its employees. It's a fairly accurate comparison. If, like me, you've seen both in action then you will quickly understand.

But even if you haven't seen scientologists in action... if you think it never happens that SOME people supporting CGC SOMETIMES go off the deep end, then you may be one of those people.

And if you haven't seen it before, just wait until some of them weigh in on this post. Look for words like "ridiculous" and "crazy," etc.

[68 Guns]

Not if the slabbed copy costs $500 and the raw copy costs $100 and there is no discernable difference.

That would be just stupid.

As for "proof", I don't need any, because there is simply no getting around the fact that the vast majority of comic book buyers buy raw comics. Whether new or vintage.

The one million comics that CGC has graded to date is a drop in the bucket even compared to just one year's worth of comic publications.


Are you afraid to compare the two side by side,at the same price?
You have actually proven my point,in trying to say people will choose the raw book if its 5 times cheaper.Thanks.

[68 Guns]

I don't mind someone bashing CGC if it is warranted. Lord knows I bash them. However, their service is a useful tool. To say it is all bad is shortsighted and childish. Is it silly to pay 10x guide for a Marvel comic printed in the '80s? Not my call to make, but that is the fault of 2 bidders with more money than brains, not the fault of CGC, and if they want to spend $50k on an ASM #300, they can knock themselves out.



To insinuate that the people that post on the CGC message boards are a mindless cult is comical to the point that I take offense to it. If there is a beef with a particular poster, so be it, bring it out in the open, but to lump everyone in to one pile is retarded. There is a lot of knowledge on that board. If someone here has a problem with the posters there, why the hell do they spend time reading it? Just like people that complain about how much money someone else spends on something. It's not you, your parents, or your kids, so why would anyone give a flying shit?



And for the record...I don't hide anything behind the keyboard. I pretty much say what I would say here. I'm just as quick witted in real life as I am with a little ponder time that the internet allows me. I have couth, but anyone that knows me, knows I have no problem making a fool out of someone if they are such a stooge to try to put me on the spotlight.



If it weren't for the threads bashing CGC,this place would be a ghost town. Its a shame but true.

[jaydeebee]

If it weren't for the threads bashing CGC,this place would be a ghost town. Its a shame but true.

Now why do you have to keep saying stuff like that? :(

[clayface]

Because an apologist like to call debate "bashing".?

[Mariner]

Because an apologist like to call debate "bashing".?


I's ironic and revealing when people try to demonize or belittle anyone who suggests there might be ongoing attempts to...

demonize or belittle anyone who dissents.

[stupidman]

Why would anyone use their services?
Because,like it or not,they have become the market maker.
Sell a X-Men 94 on ebay. Call it NM,and have the biggest scans allowed. A CGC blue label 9.4 with small scans will get a better price 99% of the time.
I bought an Avengers 4 off ebay,with a huge scan. Seller called it a VF. I had it slabbed and it came back a 7.5 Bought it raw for $460,slabbed it and sold it for $775.
Why do people use CGC? Because it makes them money.It's really not rocket science.
Try selling a HG key book with it being CGC'd. You'll end up leaving quite a bit of money on the table.
You are paying for their opinion and the slab itself. Rightly or not,the majority of buyers trust their opinions and are willing to pay a premium for it.

A sad state of affairs, to be sure. Is there any way to reverse this? How can I help?

[clayface]

I's ironic and revealing when people try to demonize or belittle anyone who suggests there might be ongoing attempts to...

demonize or belittle anyone who dissents.

Yeah! What he said.....I think.....

[DiceX]

And if you haven't seen it before, just wait until some of them weigh in on this post. Look for words like "ridiculous" and "crazy," etc.

So until they show up, I'll have to pacify my time by wading through the "cult" and "scientologist" posts.

Again...who exactly is calling the other side names? I guess it's perfectly acceptable for you to sit on this side of the fence and toss insults at the evil capitalist empire and their "apologists" on the other side of the fence.

[Capitalrecoveryman]

Pro-CGC or Anti-CGC, any fan of Gene Simmons is all right in my book.

[68 Guns]

I'm reminded of a story of Marco Polo's journey thru China. Upon arriving at The Great Wall,he remarked" Ah,The Great Wall. Its magnificence is the stuff of legend.I understand it was built to keep out the barbarians. Turning to the local chief,he asked "When did you build this and how long did it take." Looking down and answering in a very small voice,the leader replied "I don't know,you'd have to ask the people on the other side. They are the ones who built it."

[Hoss]

If it weren't for the threads bashing CGC,this place would be a ghost town. Its a shame but true.

I might be wrong, but I don't think that even the CGC boards started with 13000+ members. We all gotta start somewhere!

[68 Guns]

I might be wrong, but I don't think that even the CGC boards started with 13000+ members. We all gotta start somewhere!

Agreed. I just wish people would post about what they love about the hobby instead of bashing CGC so much.After a month,I know an awful lot about how many posters feel about CGC but haven't a clue about what they collect,like or are looking for.

[stupidman]

Pro-CGC or Anti-CGC, any fan of Gene Simmons is all right in my book.

Gene Simmons would love CGC. He'll do anything to make a buck.

[clayface]

Agreed. I just wish people would post about what they love about the hobby instead of bashing CGC so much.After a month,I know an awful lot about how many posters feel about CGC but haven't a clue about what they collect,like or are looking for.

Well then, why don't you start threads about things you enjoy and maybe people will chime in.

[oxbladder]

We're trying to build our posts counts,to play in the arcade.
Besides,while these folks are bashing CGC,they aren't doing any harm to themselves or the nearby furry animals.

See this is the wonderful world of CGC zealotry. Afraid to actually debate or bother to differentiate "bashing" and criticism. It is exactly what I expect from someone uneducated in assurance/certification systems. Take some courses on international certification and get back to me. I am tired of spelling out why CGC is a niche market. It may have the dollars behind it but is a niche just the same. Until you and the other zealots can prove to me that CGC has touched the majority of books and actually talked to J6P for their opinion you will fail to convince me that they are an authority or speak for the majority.

Of course you strongly support them because in the end they make you money. This current market difference is also a big incentive to own graded books becase the owner assumes they are sitting on a jackpot and have a UNIVERSALLY recognized graded book. Sadly though even CGC doesn't guarantee their opinion because, as they say and zealots say, their opinion is subjective. So what does that mean? Nine time out of ten that pretty 9.4 you own may be graded a 9.4 but at the same time it could grade higher or LOWER. Why do you think people play the resub game? It means their book stands a chance of going up in grade (or down) and you yourself say that that means money in the bank if it goes up.

The fact that you can't see how perilously CGC is positioned means when the crash comes it is gonna be a hard one. And you know what? CGC doesn't care because they don't guarantee their product. They can play lip service to "protecting" consumers, it's all about the books, or whatever but their main interest, lest they want to be unemployed, is about selling their product and that ALWAYS means compromising ... unless they are a CERTIFIED assurance company.

I could sell people all sorts of wild claims and services. Then I could walk away and you know what if I didn't guarantee my claims/service and adhere to strict EXTERNAL standards no one could get their money back.

I absolutely guarantee you the floor will fall out from under CGC and the sad thing is NEVER has to but supporters are to blind and uneducated to see just how tenuous their grasp on the market is.

In the end I really don't care because I DON'T need them to grade books for me, to sell books for me, or to tell me how to treat any of my customers (if I was looking for any). CGC counts on people being uneducated or unsure of themselves. They keep their business under wraps because they know that it really doesn't take that much to do what they do and if people actually put some effort into it they could grade for themselves.

As for the criticisms of buying raw and assuming that is I am not buying CGC I must be buying crap. Well yes I do buy a range of grades, titles, and I spend a wide range of prices. So what? For those of you who wonder why HG collectors get criticized there you go read 68 Guns' responses. It is a bunch of elitist, snotty, BS.

When was the last big HG raw sale? I don't know and I don't care. What does it matter? Does it make you more anyone more right or wrong?

Here is one for you. Why is it that people are getting books ALREADY IN HIGH GRADE restored or "conserved"? Books in such grades should have any structural compromises that need it. Why is it that books existing in one grade be worked on then get a HIGHER GRADE not be considered restored?

Heck other people can dream up a hundred other valid questions but no matter how nicely we framed them or even if we are getting into graded books (or want to get books graded) be considered "bashing" CGC? What if someone bought a graded book and disagreed with the grade and wanted questions answered?

I also find it extremely hilarious that here you try and argue from the moral high ground and you do nothing but insult this forum, its members, and the content of posts here. Then you make this wild and crazy accusation that this forum only exists because of the CGC bashing. You are so wrong your comments make you look like a whiny four year old that got vanilla ice cream instead of chocolate for desert. This forum has always had decent traffic and until Hammer was invited here there was virtually zero talk about CGC at all. You know why? Because none of really give two sh!ts about them. We love comics and talking comics and you sure as hell don't need CGC to do that. Heck until Hammer came here other than banning spammers there was virtually zero bad blood here. Now though that some disenfranchised CGC forum members have landed here as well as some whom wished to at first counter Hammer's comment s and now defend CGC against the disenfranchised has more bad blood come out.

Now we get regular visitors like you who wish to do nothing but raise hell. It sucks because we don't need or want it and it drives the good folks who could give a sh!t away. When the war dies down the traffic is gone.

I could go on but it is just not worth it.

[sckao]

I's ironic and revealing when people try to demonize or belittle anyone who suggests there might be ongoing attempts to...

demonize or belittle anyone who dissents.

You mean like what Mariner is doing? Each of Mariner's passive-aggressive posts is a thinly veiled insulting insinuation which I find extremely distasteful.

[68 Guns]

You can repeat the same drivel over and over,it still doesn't make it right.
I've been a collector since the early 70s,and a store owner/ dealer various different times since the mid-80s.The market I currently deal with is driven by CGC. I can adapt or I can get shut out of it.I can sell high grade CGC books for big money or I can sell sell raw books and have everyone question why I won't submit my books for slabbing and a restoration check.
Is restoration in comics rampant? From my experiance,it is.I've come across hundreds of SA and BA books that have been slightly color-touched or micro trimmed. I'm good at detecting,but no expert. Again- If you aren't buying hi value books,it's not a concern for you. It is for many of us.Can you get as much pleasure out of a comic with little collector value- Yes,but thats not the question.
Why does it matter when the last raw HG book sold? Perhaps it doesn't matter to you,but again,this is more than a hobby to me.
As far as the rest of your post,or your insults- wow. I'm deeply wounded.Or maybe I'm not.
Perhaps you should go back and look at your last hundred posts. See how many were about your love of comics.

[DiceX]

Now though that some disenfranchised CGC forum members have landed here as well as some whom wished to at first counter Hammer's comment s and now defend CGC against the disenfranchised has more bad blood come out.

You're right, ox. I'll keep my comments over there, and you can sit here on your throne and never have to read them again. You're opinion is always so cutting edge that they should take applications from other member hopefuls, so a community can be built around the cornerstone that is you.

I would toss a few clever insults at you, but you're such a cranky old dick, I don't really have to call you out. Congrats on making these boards a better place by running off the scum from the other board.

I feel like I'm in Jr. High again. :?

[clayface]

Let me get this straight. All we're supposed to talk about here is our love of comic? That's it? How's about you right out some guidelines on what we should post.

[Hoss]

Okie doke.

That's it for this one.

You can talk about what you want, but do it nicely.