Is Non-Disclosed pressing unethical?

[clayface]

What do all think? I think it is. Let's see how long we can keep this thread on an even keel.

[68 Guns]

I think pressing should be disclosed,and I will not buy from dealers/sellers that sell books without disclosing it.
Unethical may be too strong,but I'll leave that for others to decide.
I have bought books that I know were pressed,but I factored it into the price I was willing to pay.
I had three books pressed by Matt Nelson when he offered to show the CGC forum what pressing could do.I don't believe I'll have any others pressed in the near future.

[Red Hook]

I still have two of three books that Matt Nelson spot-pressed on the covers, when he made his offer on the CGC boards. He did a good job. Pressing of this type is the least invasive form imho. The other book, I sold, with disclosure.

[Mariner]

This is one of those gray areas because pressing is something which can occur naturally. In the best of all worlds everything, including pressing, would be disclosed, and in that world I don't think pressing would matter to most people all that much.

It's also a gray area because it's one of many, many things which theoretically could turn off a buyer. And I don't think you can ride a high horse about pressing while at the same time saying it's okay not to disclose that a non-pressed high-grade book came from a warehouse find when you know darn well that would also turn off some buyers. Neither do I think you can ride the horse on pressing while at the same justifying giving customers info you know is faulty (overstreet, anyone?), and calling them "suckers" for not doing their research. ("clueless old people.")

[The Charlton Guy]

As far as ethics go, what difference does it make?

Pressing is sanctioned and accepted by CGC as non-restorative, practiced by nearly every "restorer" with a shingle to hang, and has the blind eye of the majority of the buying and collecting world. The ethics are kind of a moot point at this point, don't you think?

My biggest issue with pressing is not so much with the ethics, but with the degradation of paper quality. I guess you could tie that to ethics. Intentionally degrading paper quality to boost a grade. That's a pretty rotten trade-off.

I am convinced that using a heat press or spot-iron on a comic book, particularly on already aged/toned interior sheets, has about the same effect as putting your comic in a sun-baked attic for a few years.

As for pure pressure (as in a tight long-box or a book-press), there is practically no paper degradation involved and the only effects are nearly immediately evident, and balanced by the improvement/flattening of creasing and surface rippling, so that seems like a good deal for all involved. Should a tightly packed or non-heat-pressed book be disclosed? Probably not. There are just way too many of them to bother.

Unfortunately, soon people will probably be saying the same thing about heat-pressed books.

[68 Guns]

Have you had a problem selling books that came from a warehouse find? I certainly haven't.
I have no idea what your last paragraph is about,or who you are referring to. Seems like a lot of pent up anger in there.Ever thought about getting a dog?

[arexcrooke]

I am convinced that using a heat press or spot-iron on a comic book, particularly on already aged/toned interior sheets, has about the same effect as putting your comic in a sun-baked attic for a few years.

.
Where is your evidence to support your theory?

[The Charlton Guy]

I don't have any, do you?

[The Charlton Guy]

Have you had a problem selling books that came from a warehouse find? I certainly haven't.
I have no idea what your last paragraph is about,or who you are referring to. Seems like a lot of pent up anger in there.Ever thought about getting a dog?


I really have no idea what you're talking about. Nor do I want to know.

[The Charlton Guy]

And I'm not angry.

[arexcrooke]

I don't have any, do you?
Well, depends on how much store you place in talking with people who do have experience and what they tell me.

[The Charlton Guy]

I'm listening.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Heating paper shortens it's life. Period.

[arexcrooke]

I'm listening.
You are no more listening than a man in the moon. Very few, if any of you here are listening.

I wasnt told what the temp used was.

But think about it this way:
I believe that the people who do press books care for the books themselves and the structure etc of them. So why would they want to do something to the book that would damage it.

[68 Guns]

CG,
My response was to Mariner,not you.
So you are convinced that pressing is akin to putting a book in a sun baked attic,but admit you have no evidence to support your opinion. Thats about par for the course,isn't it?
I'm against pressing,and would love to find proof that it is harmful to the book,but haven't seen enough evidence to back it up.

[arexcrooke]

Heating paper shortens it's life. Period.
No doubt. But it is all about how much.
Paper, in and of itself has a "life expectancy" so the book being exposed to heat in any form shortens its life span. Same goes with exposure to light, cold, moisture/humidity, storage conditions, critters.

But the question is, does pressing a book, INCREASE the rate of paper degredation at a rate faster than "normal"

[The Charlton Guy]

No doubt. But it is all about how much.
Paper, in and of itself has a "life expectancy" so the book being exposed to heat in any form shortens its life span. Same goes with exposure to light, cold, moisture/humidity, storage conditions, critters.

But the question is, does pressing a book, INCREASE the rate of paper degredation at a rate faster than "normal"

Good point.

Like any scientific evaluation, this requires experimentation.

And there isn't much out there.

That's why I am concerned (about heat-pressing).

[arexcrooke]

I don't have "proof" that will read or make any difference in your closed minds that I can parlay on a discussion board, so I won't bother.

But I do have over 30 years of experience in dealing with comic books and book and peridicals of all types, all ages, going back almost 400 years. My father has over 60 years experience in dealing and collecting the same, and I learned well from him.

I know my paper.

And I know that heat degrades paper.

That's all I'm saying.
The closed mind comment is amusing. As it can easily describe the people on the other side of the debate. In other words, you, and many of the board members here.

Of course heat degrades paper, but read my response to SShip.

[The Charlton Guy]

I'm just saying that you seem to have made up your mind that pressing has no averse effect on paper. Thus the closed mind comment.

Why are you so constantly on the on the attack and the defense at the same time?

[arexcrooke]

Based on the info that I have on pressing, it doesnt hurt the book. Until someone else convinces me otherwise, that is an opinion that I will hold.

I dont see myself as being on the attack. Just pointing out what i see to be the hypocritical aspecs of the views and practices here on these boards. Especially when it comes to CGC and the CGC forums.

[clayface]

You are no more listening than a man in the moon. Very few, if any of you here are listening.

I wasnt told what the temp used was.

But think about it this way:
I believe that the people who do press books care for the books themselves and the structure etc of them. So why would they want to do something to the book that would damage it.

I will agree with you that no one intentionally wants to degrade or damage a book while pressing it.

[DrWatson]

What do all think? I think it is. Let's see how long we can keep this thread on an even keel.
No, it isn't. It isn't illegal or immoral either.

[68 Guns]

Yes,heat degrades paper. So does extreme cold. Most books shipped via US mail travel in unpressurized cargo holds for hours and may sit in a non-climate controlled warehouse for several more.Is the exposure to that cold for hours any worse than being exposed to a high burst of heat?
I don't know, and the so called experts seem split on it.
A few years ago,Mile High Chuck loaded the Dallas Stephans into the non-climate controlled back of a U-Haul and drove it from San Diego to Denver in late July/early August.How hot do you think the back of that truck got. 120? 140? Was that hot enough and prolonged enough to damage the books? Some people think it was. Again,I don't know.
Will heat pressing affect a cream colored page more than a white page? Does the quality of the paper make a difference? 1970s books are printed on better quality paper than 1940s Timelys. Does that make a difference?
Last year,I bought a collection stored in a garage for several years.Most of the books had severe tanning on the inside cover and were cream to off-white. A few were white to off white. The heat conditions evidently affected different copies of the same book differently.If that is true over time,is it true when the heat is compressed into a flash pressing.

[The Charlton Guy]

Let's see how long we can keep this thread on an even keel.

Obviously, not very long.

[arexcrooke]

thats funny. What makes me an apologist CG?
Ive bashed CGC in the past. Ive criticized them.
What makes me a stooge? Because I collect HG CGC books?
Please explain to me as obviously so brainwashed i have no ability to think thoughts that are anti-CGC

[The Charlton Guy]

I'm sorry for that comment.

I need to go to bed.

[arexcrooke]

No worries. Although we can discuss it. Via pm would probably be better. that way the thread can get back to its intended purpose.

[DrWatson]

Your brain has been slabbed by CGC and Borock's a Skrull.

[arexcrooke]

Hey, here comes another stooge/apologist #woohoo#

[68 Guns]

Your brain has been slabbed by CGC and Borock's a Skrull.

Not that there is anything wrong with that!

[DrWatson]

I agree. Just like undisclosed pressing isn't unethical. All it takes is three little words: Is it pressed?

[arexcrooke]

Hooray Individual Responsibility
how about those three little words?

[68 Guns]

I agree. Just like undisclosed pressing isn't unethical. All it takes is three little words: Is it pressed?


As I said,I'm not sure it's unethical either. But I won't buy from people who don't disclose it up front.Tis my money and I spend it as I like.
At last years National,I walked by Nelsons booth examining the Avengers 4 I just traded for,and had a extremely HG Showcase 60 with me,as well.
I stopped to look at his homemade Action #1 and he asked if he could help me with anything. "Sure can",I replied" How about disclosing which books here are pressed?" Conversation took an unseemly lull.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Good point.

Like any scientific evaluation, this requires experimentation.

And there isn't much out there.

That's why I am concerned (about heat-pressing).


This is what it all boils down to NO? Who knows, once again I ask how much damage is done by scanning a book. And the shipping question is valid as well. Does anybody know? Who knows?.......C'mon one of you comic geeks lighten the mood with a little old school comic theme love.

[DrWatson]

As I said,I'm not sure it's unethical either. But I won't buy from people who don't disclose it up front.Tis my money and I spend it as I like.
At last years National,I walked by Nelsons booth examining the Avengers 4 I just traded for,and had a extremely HG Showcase 60 with me,as well.
I stopped to look at his homemade Action #1 and he asked if he could help me with anything. "Sure can",I replied" How about disclosing which books here are pressed?" Conversation took an unseemly lull.
When you go to the fast food restaurant of your choice do you ask them to disclose exactly how they "made" that grilled chicken or what's in their "shake." Just curious, as they aren't disclosing that upfront either.

[68 Guns]

When you go to the fast food restaurant of your choice do you ask them to disclose exactly how they "made" that grilled chicken or what's in their "shake." Just curious, as they aren't disclosing that upfront either.


Thats pretty weak. I expect better from the stooge/apologist wing of the forum.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

I've learned my lesson, I'm outta here.

[DrWatson]

Thats pretty weak. I expect better from the stooge/apologist wing of the forum.
It's late and I am packing to go to Chicago in the morning. That's all you are going to get on the fly. BTW... if you really knew how Subway made chicken... #shock#

[clayface]

No, it isn't. It isn't illegal or immoral either.

Yes, yes it is unethical. How you can even think that way is beyond me. Your moral compass got lost somewhere.

[clayface]

I agree. Just like undisclosed pressing isn't unethical. All it takes is three little words: Is it pressed?

What's to stop them from lying? You're just creating your own morality Doc.

[habib]

Yes, yes it is unethical. How you can even think that way is beyond me. Your moral compass got lost somewhere.

The area of pressing definately has two sides to it......and both sides feel strongly about the stance they have taken.

Please respect each others stances and discuss the situation appropriately.

Sometimes it is just best to say "we are going to have to agree to disagree" and leave it at that.

#professor#

[DrWatson]

What's to stop them from lying? You're just creating your own morality Doc.
There is nothing to keep anyone from lying about anything, Vince. As one can plainly see from your recent threads, all you're doing is trying to stir up crap anyway, maybe you should find your own moral compass. I'm satisfied with my morals and ethics just fine. Perhaps you should examine your own as you seem to be the one with all the questions.

[clayface]

There is nothing to keep anyone from lying about anything, Vince. As one can plainly see from your recent threads, all you're doing is trying to stir up crap anyway, maybe you should find your own moral compass. I'm satisfied with my morals and ethics just fine. Perhaps you should examine your own as you seem to be the one with all the questions.

Oh Pffifle. When was the search for truth stirring things up? When it it gets too close.

[habib]

"we are going to have to agree to disagree" "we are going to have to agree to disagree" "we are going to have to agree to disagree"

#poke# If you say it three times in a row guys......it will come true!

[clayface]

The area of pressing definately has two sides to it......and both sides feel strongly about the stance they have taken.

Please respect each others stances and discuss the situation appropriately.

Sometimes it is just best to say "we are going to have to agree to disagree" and leave it at that.

#professor#
With all due respect, This exchange between me and Doc was pretty mild compared to some of the other exchanges here. If you don't want this discussed, then why have a section on Restoration and disclosure? Those topics go hand in hand with heated debate.

[stupidman]

I think some see "unethical" as too strong a word. What word works then? Devious? Tricky? Cunning? Sly?

[habib]

With all due respect, This exchange between me and Doc was pretty mild compared to some of the other exchanges here. If you don't want this discussed, then why have a section on Restoration and disclosure? Those topics go hand in hand with heated debate.

With all due respect back......heated debate is fine. Starting to call someone out on their "moral character" when they disagree with you is not OK.

This is going to the next stage of insults which get slung back and forth between members and add nothing to the discussion.

Why have a section on Restoration and disclosure? So we as adults can discuss topics that interest us and we care about. That is why we have this section.

[habib]

I think some see "unethical" as too strong a word. What word works then? Devious? Tricky? Cunning? Sly?

Stu #angry1#.....you aren't helping #oldie#

[Mariner]

Have you had a problem selling books that came from a warehouse find? I certainly haven't.
I have no idea what your last paragraph is about,or who you are referring to. Seems like a lot of pent up anger in there.Ever thought about getting a dog?

Had a dog but put it to sleep after it chewed up some comics. But then I pressed the comics and they look like new.

No problem selling warehouse books when they're at cover price or current price for a new comic. But if you want to sell it for big money you have to put it in a slab and say it's the highest possible grade, and not tell the buyer that you took it from a stack of more than a thousand just like it.

[Mariner]

I think some see "unethical" as too strong a word. What word works then? Devious? Tricky? Cunning? Sly?

I've lost track of what you're referring to.

Is it tricky or sly to put a bent corner book on the bottom of the stack knowing it will flatten out? Is devious not to tell a potential buyer it was a "bottom book'?

Or is it just tricky if a person uses heat to get the same result? (because it can damage a book)

And if either of those is cunning or sly, is it either cunning or sly to put a five or ten thousand dollar slabbed book in front of a buyer without disclosing that the book came from the bottom of a six foot stack of uncirculated copies?

[stupidman]

Stu #angry1#.....you aren't helping #oldie#

Ok, I'll go smoke a bowl #surrender#

[habib]

Ok, I'll go smoke a bowl #surrender#

#rockon# #cheers#

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Ok, I'll go smoke a bowl #surrender#

Wait for it.....On that one with you.

Look this is weird. Why are we so concerned with this? Why? These are the facts I see.

#1. $ and supposedly we determine that. We always have before, even when we were wrong. I've been wrong.
#2. We care about the preservation of the books, but we don't have a science to that yet. That is evident by the lack of knowledge, no offense to anyone here, of what actually degrades a book.
#3. These are cyclical arguments that will always degrade to insults when the facts that are not provable become debate.


STU, you seem to be arguing a debate without knowledge of what really deteriorates a book. I wonder if you and I could possible get some folks who actually know paper to post here?

I hope I don't offend, but really who knows, at the molecular level (beyond sight) on a scale progression what is worse;
#1. Pressing
#2. Poor storage
#3. Poor shipping (and I have to add here that as a person who has been involved with art transportation we do not take lightly the transfer of an art object from a humid low elevation area to a dry high elevation area. We create de-compression chambers that are regulated to the Nth degree. OK I admit, I'm just a schlep for art, but I do watch what they do.)
#4 Scanning, I say again, that is high light level on a piece of paper at close proximity. I can almost guarantee that that will be a criteria for high grade once a test is made.


The way I see it High grade has been and always will be temporal. We will have newer and better technology to use and that should not effect readability. As far as collectibility.....I just don't know. I know this. My full time buying ID lately is
http://myworld.ebay.com/dont_sell_me_undisclosed_restored_or_pressed_books/

I'm not trying to be an A-Hole, I'm just asking. If you are that kind of dealer, one who goes beyond the basic take it out of the bag and then do something to it, I'd like to know.

[68 Guns]

Had a dog but put it to sleep after it chewed up some comics. But then I pressed the comics and they look like new.

No problem selling warehouse books when they're at cover price or current price for a new comic. But if you want to sell it for big money you have to put it in a slab and say it's the highest possible grade, and not tell the buyer that you took it from a stack of more than a thousand just like it.

First off, allow me to apologize to you. My response to you earlier reads curter than it was intended to.
As far as the point you are making,I guess we should agree to disagree.I don't believe a seller has any obligation to inform the buyer if the book he is buying is the sellers only copy or if it is one of a thousand.
Why do you think he has? If I have two cases of X-Men 100,and you only have one,should I be obligated to sell my copy cheaper than you can sell yours?

[mordo]

When you go to the fast food restaurant of your choice do you ask them to disclose exactly how they "made" that grilled chicken or what's in their "shake." Just curious, as they aren't disclosing that upfront either.

When it comes to fast food restaurants, McDonalds is THE market leader. And, they believe in full disclosure too.

Here is what's in their Chocolate Triple Thick Shake:
http://app.mcdonalds.com/bagamcmeal?process=item&itemID=1801&details=true&imageSize=small

Or their Grilled Chicken Classic Sandwich:
http://app.mcdonalds.com/bagamcmeal?process=item&itemID=2213

Nutritional information can also be found underneath the containers of their popular Quarter Pounder and Big Mac sandwiches.

Okay, sorry for the interruption. As you were, guys. :)

[clayface]

With all due respect back......heated debate is fine. Starting to call someone out on their "moral character" when they disagree with you is not OK.

This is going to the next stage of insults which get slung back and forth between members and add nothing to the discussion.

Why have a section on Restoration and disclosure? So we as adults can discuss topics that interest us and we care about. That is why we have this section.

I guess I'm still finding it difficult to figure out protocol on these boards, especially after the bizarre way I was initially banned and the connection and/or collusion with Watson, his thread on the cgc boards about a thread I started here, the corral mods and the cgc boards ability to disrupt any pressing thread they want, with impunity. Now, hopefully I won't need to be afraid to bring things up that bother me, or worry about just another good old boy system like they have on cgc and the constant fear of banning and at the least, constant harassment. The attempts (successful) to disrupt pressing threads is quite disturbing and one has to wonder why these threads are gone after so fiercely? Questioning someones moral compass, who has the ability to fight back, seemed fairly mild to me, especially when that person can give as well as he takes. So I guess I still need to learn how to navigate what appears to be a fairly arbitrary mine field here. Hopefully, speaking my mind, searching for truth and questioning authority, isn't an automatic banning offense here.

[jaydeebee]

Could y'all maybe add a little more drama to your posts? Most of you aren't sounding nearly persecuted enough and this is an Internet message board after all, so you know everything that happens here is going to affect your life, well-being and ability to obtain affordable health-care.

(yes I'm being sarcastic!)

[clayface]

Could y'all maybe add a little more drama to your posts? Most of you aren't sounding nearly persecuted enough and this is an Internet message board after all, so you know everything that happens here is going to affect your life, well-being and ability to obtain affordable health-care.

(yes I'm being sarcastic!)
See, I thought you really meant it and was about to comply. Now if I could only figure out how to add music to play behind my post, they would be even more dramatic. As far as affecting our lives...well, they are only little moments in time, but if you live the moments... but all seriousness aside, what's wrong with a little drama? A little spice?

[DiceX]

I'm puzzled. How did the post you quoted directly insult you? I'm not going to respond because I imagine the moderaors are going to swoop in and chastise you the way they did me about civil discourse.

The one I just quoted did not. The myriad of other posts you've made in the last several days have.

[clayface]

The one I just quoted did not. The myriad of other posts you've made in the last several days have.

Show me some example, Dice.

[clayface]

I'm puzzled. How did the post you quoted directly insult you? I'm not going to respond because I imagine the moderaors are going to swoop in and chastise you the way they did me about civil discourse.
Anytime now....

[Mariner]

First off, allow me to apologize to you. My response to you earlier reads curter than it was intended to.
As far as the point you are making,I guess we should agree to disagree.I don't believe a seller has any obligation to inform the buyer if the book he is buying is the sellers only copy or if it is one of a thousand.
Why do you think he has? If I have two cases of X-Men 100,and you only have one,should I be obligated to sell my copy cheaper than you can sell yours?

I much appreciate the apology. Considering how people on some of these boards are allowed to act. that was unexpected.

I respect your saying you don't have to tell people if a book came from a warehouse find.

But I think that all non-disclosure is essentially equal, if it involves anything that might make a person less or more inclined to buy it.

So, my point is that if you got a warehouse book that's a 9.8 beauty and you describe it without saying it was found among a thousand just like it, then I suppose you can defend it with "buyer beware."

Just don't turn around and tell me that's okay, but somebody else is dishonest becuase they don't tell you up front they put a book at the bottom of a stack to flatten out a bend.

I have noted that the group which gets the most vocal about disclosure of pressing includes many people who describe books to create the impression they're rare in high grade condition, while knowing they really aren't.

And when the question comes up whether buyers should be told, the answer has always been a quick "no." (often followed by "f-k 'em" "the suckers deserve it." or some other variation of "screw the clueless"

Either you tell your buyer everything that might affect the value, or you don't.

I can see it either way. But there's people trying to have it both ways.

Which would you rather discover, after paying several thousand for a book?

1) You discover that your rare book was flatted out by being placed under a lot of other books?

2) You discover the slabbed 9.8 you bought as "the highest possible graded copy" turns out to be one of a thousand just like it?

[arexcrooke]

1) You discover that your rare book was flatted out by being placed under a lot of other books?

2) You discover the slabbed 9.8 you bought as "the highest possible graded copy" turns out to be one of a thousand just like it?
Two points you might be overlooking:
In point one, and it has been said numerous times, placing a book under a lot of other books is likely not going to do a lot to improve the book.

In point two, you slip in the word, POSSIBLE. that nullifies your point.

To answer your points:
#1-Doesnt matter to me.
#2-If you are playing in that end of the pool, you need to understand that there is most likely going to be more additions to the census than just yours.

[Mariner]

Two points you might be overlooking:
In point one, and it has been said numerous times, placing a book under a lot of other books is likely not going to do a lot to improve the book.

In point two, you slip in the word, POSSIBLE. that nullifies your point.

To answer your points:
#1-Doesnt matter to me.
#2-If you are playing in that end of the pool, you need to understand that there is most likely going to be more additions to the census than just yours.

I don't know the word possible "nullifies" the point. It's one of the words people use in describing 9.8 books when there are currently no copies higher graded. It creates the impression the item is more of a rarity than it actually is. And, clearly, lots of people are responding to those false impressions because they are paying lots of money for books, apparently NOT aware there is "most likely going to be more additions..."

And the point is that many of those transactions are being conducted wherein the seller knows it isn't rare, the seller knows there are likely to be more additions, but the seller has worded the listing to downplay that and carefully avoided telling the buyer any info to the contrary.

If you say that's okay and "buyer beware," then fine. But it's not consistent to say "let the uninformed be screwed" in some instances while maintaining it's a capital offense not to volunteer a book's been pressed (and I do know people who think that putting it under heavy weights amounts to pressing), because it does alter a book from the way it was "found."

[toz1960]

Are there any used car salesmen here?

[arexcrooke]

I don't know the word possible "nullifies" the point. It's one of the words people use in describing 9.8 books when there are currently no copies higher graded. It creates the impression the item is more of a rarity than it actually is. And, clearly, lots of people are responding to those false impressions because they are paying lots of money for books, apparently NOT aware there is "most likely going to be more additions..."

And the point is that many of those transactions are being conducted wherein the seller knows it isn't rare, the seller knows there are likely to be more additions, but the seller has worded the listing to downplay that and carefully avoided telling the buyer any info to the contrary.

If you say that's okay and "buyer beware," then fine. But it's not consistent to say "let the uninformed be screwed" in some instances while maintaining it's a capital offense not to volunteer a book's been pressed (and I do know people who think that putting it under heavy weights amounts to pressing), because it does alter a book from the way it was "found."
Fair points on some of it, and intelligent regardless.
Why is it a sellers responsibility to tell a potential customer that there may be more of a book show up in a certain grade? I dont think they have that responsibility at all.
And where have you seen listing/auctions/sites that do this? I peruse a lot of sites everyday and I am not seeing what you are talking about. Not saying it isnt there, just that I am not seeing it.
A buyer should be aware and should do thier homework. I cant figure out my words to express that it is the buyers responsibility without making it sound as though the seller should not bear any responsibility in dealing truthfully with a seller.
Without delving into pressing, putting a book under a stack of other books has negligable effects. It is not the pressing that gets discussed ad nauseum at CGC and to a lesser extent, here.

[toz1960]

Seriously though,If you check the gerber Photo-Journal Guide there is a very good article on what affects paper.The biggest culprit is...oxygen.The other factors are temperature and humidty.Heat,high humidity and oxygen will age paper very fast.That is why the outer edges turn color first.

Ever find a big stack of old newspapers? The ones in the middle will be much whiter the the ones on top.

AS for heating & pressing I tried it with an old comic from 1967(a true rag with water damage and a 3 inch hole in the back cover so don't worry) just to see any effects for my self.I probably did it wrong but it made the paper much more brittle.Yeah it took some of the wrinkles out but any creases were still there,plain to see.There was also a pronounced loss of gloss to the cover.

HOW it was pressed is the big issue.Like cg said,packed tight in a long box or stuck in a pile of hard backs is no where near as bad as putting the comic through the heat and press method.

The latter way MUST be disclosed because it has altered the paper so that it will age faster than normal.At the molecular level the chemical composition has been altered and selling a book this way is very unethical.

[MrBedrock]

Yes,heat degrades paper. So does extreme cold. Most books shipped via US mail travel in unpressurized cargo holds for hours and may sit in a non-climate controlled warehouse for several more.Is the exposure to that cold for hours any worse than being exposed to a high burst of heat?
I don't know, and the so called experts seem split on it.
A few years ago,Mile High Chuck loaded the Dallas Stephans into the non-climate controlled back of a U-Haul and drove it from San Diego to Denver in late July/early August.How hot do you think the back of that truck got. 120? 140? Was that hot enough and prolonged enough to damage the books? Some people think it was. Again,I don't know.
Will heat pressing affect a cream colored page more than a white page? Does the quality of the paper make a difference? 1970s books are printed on better quality paper than 1940s Timelys. Does that make a difference?
Last year,I bought a collection stored in a garage for several years.Most of the books had severe tanning on the inside cover and were cream to off-white. A few were white to off white. The heat conditions evidently affected different copies of the same book differently.If that is true over time,is it true when the heat is compressed into a flash pressing.
This is a great post!

And let's take this post and the concept of disclosure to their logical conclusion. From this point forward, a seller should disclose all known locales a comic has travelled to, what time of year said travel took place, what shipping method was used, what storage method was used in the interum, what room temperature a comic was known to be stored at, what humidity level etc.etc.etc. Obviously, in the future any comic that spent its entire life only in the mid-west will be much more desirable then a book bought and stored for years in Texas, then shipped via ground transportation during summer months to the Sunshine State of Florida.
The only ethical thing to do is to disclose this type of info. It is pertinent to the lifespan of the paper.

[stupidman]

:roll:

Ok, how's this: sellers should disclose any intentional alteration of which they made a conscious effort within their control to improve the appearance of a comic book.

[clayface]

:roll:

Ok, how's this: sellers should disclose any intentional alteration of which they made a conscious effort within their control to improve the appearance of a comic book.

That's too radical an idea and creates an unfair burden for the seller who's only trying to earn a buck. I think all the seller be required to say is: "Maybe..What's it to you, fanboy".

[stupidman]

You do make a point, my phrase is not specific enough. It does not cover someone re-selling a book who was told of the intentional alteration at the time they purchased it, but did not personally instigate or was not personally involved in said action.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Seriously though,If you check the gerber Photo-Journal Guide there is a very good article on what affects paper.The biggest culprit is...oxygen.The other factors are temperature and humidty.Heat,high humidity and oxygen will age paper very fast.That is why the outer edges turn color first.

Ever find a big stack of old newspapers? The ones in the middle will be much whiter the the ones on top.

AS for heating & pressing I tried it with an old comic from 1967(a true rag with water damage and a 3 inch hole in the back cover so don't worry) just to see any effects for my self.I probably did it wrong but it made the paper much more brittle.Yeah it took some of the wrinkles out but any creases were still there,plain to see.There was also a pronounced loss of gloss to the cover.

HOW it was pressed is the big issue.Like cg said,packed tight in a long box or stuck in a pile of hard backs is no where near as bad as putting the comic through the heat and press method.

The latter way MUST be disclosed because it has altered the paper so that it will age faster than normal.At the molecular level the chemical composition has been altered and selling a book this way is very unethical.


Dude that is so cool that you tried it. I suspect perhaps that maybe some others that have tried it could offer some insight? I really want to try it now.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

This is a great post!

And let's take this post and the concept of disclosure to their logical conclusion. From this point forward, a seller should disclose all known locales a comic has travelled to, what time of year said travel took place, what shipping method was used, what storage method was used in the interum, what room temperature a comic was known to be stored at, what humidity level etc.etc.etc. Obviously, in the future any comic that spent its entire life only in the mid-west will be much more desirable then a book bought and stored for years in Texas, then shipped via ground transportation during summer months to the Sunshine State of Florida.
The only ethical thing to do is to disclose this type of info. It is pertinent to the lifespan of the paper.

Sarcasm? I'm not sure. If not, doesn't this seem to be a bit ridiculous. Aren't you one of those pedigree collectors. If so and this statement is sarcasm, doesn't that seem a bit.....So, my question is, are you being sarcastic?

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

:roll:

Ok, how's this: sellers should disclose any intentional alteration of which they made a conscious effort within their control to improve the appearance of a comic book.

Yeah STU, I agree, but how far does the seller have to go. Do I have to ask? Even with an eBay name like Dont_sell_me_undisclosed_pressed_or_restored_books ? And if I ask will they say "Not to my Knowledge" or just not answer at all?

AND HERE'S THE BIG ONE, can I answer those questions for my books? No is the answer. I recently saw a book for sale on eBay and the guy stated that he was grading it lower due to the fact that he thought it might have some trimming. I thought that was way cool, but I can't say that I would be able to do that because I don't know if I could identify it.

Which brings up something else I've been thinking about. Doesn't the discussion (practice) of trimming, pressing, color touch etc. really profit the major long term dealers due to the fact that after I get burned a few times, I would rather not hunt for a "deal" than go to a major dealer right off the bat? And if they know this, would they be more inclined to keep the argument going? After all if we all say "yeah dude trim the book before you send it to me and do me a favor and press it too." Then we are just as good of dealers and all they can offer is a better pressing or trimming service.

Once again I need to say that I take no stance as of yet, other than that I believe that any added heat lowers the life of a book.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

Oxygen creates and destroys. Oxidation (rust) is basically the same thing that happens to all matter on this planet. Oxygen deteriorates anything. Now, what I don't know is if heat is a condensed form of oxidation. I'm sorry I'm not a chemist. But doesn't fire only burn with oxygen?

[Davenport]

Is Non-Disclosed pressing unethical?
What do all think? I think it is. Let's see how long we can keep this thread on an even keel.
Reading through this thread I didn't see much about how conservator "Code Of Ethics" answers that "is it unethical?" question.

Wouldn't that be the starting point? To see what conclusions Professionals, who've wrestled with the question, have established for themselves?

The American Institute for Conservation of Historic and Artistic Works
http://aic.stanford.edu/pubs/commentaries.html#15

"The goals of art dealing (buying and selling cultural property for profit), authentication and appraisal may differ or conflict with the goals of preservation of cultural property..."

"...may place the conservation professional in a situation where there is a conflict between the needs of the cultural property and the motive for profit. This may affect the choice of treatment, extent and nature of documentation, etc."

"When acting as dealers, conservation professionals must disclose all such information they possess."

More good reading on "the question"...

Ethics and Standards in the Conservation of Ephemera
Susan Cicconi and William Sarill
Harvard University Art Museum April 28-29, 1989
http://www.therestorationlab.com/article.php


Being governed by "Code Of Ethics" seems to be the core dividing line between Professional Conservator and Paper Mechanic. And "Fandom" doesn't seem to acknowledge there is a distinction between conservator and mechanic, so debates become an endlessly looped.

[Burntboy]

:roll:

Ok, how's this: sellers should disclose any intentional alteration of which they made a conscious effort within their control to improve the appearance of a comic book.

On the surface, this sounds pretty good.

BUT, (and i say this in all seriousness) things like booger removal, placement inside a Gerbers for a few months or unbending a corner with ones hands, fall under this definition and ALMOST everyone that i've ever seen discuss this topic, does NOT believe they are resto nor need to be "disclosed"...

It seems to be a basic matter of degree and the ability to agree on the "tipping point"...IMHO.

[68 Guns]

I,for one,am firmly in the pro-booger removal camp.

[Capitalrecoveryman]

It snot even a point for debate.

[jaydeebee]

I think anyone who would complain over the removal of a booger is just being too picky. :-|

[geezer]

If heat pressing causes no problems then where is the harm in disclosing?
Sure, not every collector is bothered by it but why not humour those who do? #dunno#

[spacecitycomics]

"we are going to have to agree to disagree" "we are going to have to agree to disagree" "we are going to have to agree to disagree"

#poke# If you say it three times in a row guys......it will come true!


My first post here at TCC, and it's just like reading the same
dull, bashfilled arguements at other forums. :p

My opinion, and I hope that I've been collecting comics as long
or longer than most, is that properly done pressing doesn't harm
a comic book, short duration time in extreme heat or cold won't
do comic books any extranious harm, scanning a comic book won't
knock too many atoms from the red background, and that proper
storage in proper surroundings is nothing but good !
Oh,
and NOT being able to answer a question on whether a comic has
been pressed is INDEED a little different than KNOWING whether a
comic book has been pressed.
While we are splitting hairs, I have comics that I know have been
pressed, comics I know have not been pressed, and some that I
think, but cannot prove have been pressed. With the exception of
about 10 people that I know of, there are not many that can, when
blindly presented with a comic book, can tell if it has been pressed,
by natural processes, or has been professionally pressed.
I'm in !#woohoo#

[The Charlton Guy]

Welcome SpaceCity!

A very astute post for your debut! #cheers#

I agree, it becomes problematic when trying to discern whether a book has been pressed or not. At the end of the day, does it really matter? Maybe one out of a thousand high grade books have been heat-pressed. Maybe less. So trying to spot them without disclosure is a needle in a haystack proposition.

But give it time, at the current rate, Matt Nelson and his ilk will have pressed most of the high grade Gold, Silver and Bronze books anyway, then it won't make any difference anymore.

[stupidman]

Yes, but would you disclose the pressing if you sold those comics you know to be pressed? That's the title of this thread...

[68 Guns]

Welcome SpaceCity!

A very astute post for your debut! #cheers#

I agree, it becomes problematic when trying to discern whether a book has been pressed or not. At the end of the day, does it really matter? Maybe one out of a thousand high grade books have been heat-pressed. Maybe less. So trying to spot them without disclosure is a needle in a haystack proposition.

But give it time, at the current rate, Matt Nelson and his ilk will have pressed most of the high grade Gold, Silver and Bronze books anyway, then it won't make any difference anymore.


On the one hand,you argue that CGC and its million plus books represent a drop in the bucket when it comes to the overall market,on the other you feel that soon all the books will be pressed.#blahblah##blahblah##blahblah#

[malaprop]

I'd answer, but I have pressing matters to attend to.

[jaydeebee]

STOP THE PRESSES! #oldie#

(I've just always wanted to say that...sorry)

[spacecitycomics]

Yes, but would you disclose the pressing if you sold those comics you know to be pressed? That's the title of this thread...
Yes, why wouldn't I ?

[The Charlton Guy]

On the one hand,you argue that CGC and its million plus books represent a drop in the bucket when it comes to the overall market,on the other you feel that soon all the books will be pressed.#blahblah##blahblah##blahblah#

That's right.

Because the first assertion is true and the second assertion is well on its way to becoming true.

[stupidman]

Yes, why wouldn't I ?


'Cause your not as greedy at Matt Nelson? (Good answer, btw #clap#)

[thirdgreenham]

Reading through this thread I didn't see much about how conservator "Code Of Ethics" answers that "is it unethical?" question.

Wouldn't that be the starting point? To see what conclusions Professionals, who've wrestled with the question, have established for themselves?

The American Institute for Conservation of Historic and Artistic Works
http://aic.stanford.edu/pubs/commentaries.html#15

"The goals of art dealing (buying and selling cultural property for profit), authentication and appraisal may differ or conflict with the goals of preservation of cultural property..."

"...may place the conservation professional in a situation where there is a conflict between the needs of the cultural property and the motive for profit. This may affect the choice of treatment, extent and nature of documentation, etc."

"When acting as dealers, conservation professionals must disclose all such information they possess."

More good reading on "the question"...

Ethics and Standards in the Conservation of Ephemera
Susan Cicconi and William Sarill
Harvard University Art Museum April 28-29, 1989
http://www.therestorationlab.com/article.php


Being governed by "Code Of Ethics" seems to be the core dividing line between Professional Conservator and Paper Mechanic. And "Fandom" doesn't seem to acknowledge there is a distinction between conservator and mechanic, so debates become an endlessly looped.

I, for one, really enjoyed this post. Thank you, Davenport! :p

Andy

[clayface]

Good post!

[Red Hook]

Davenport and Flaming Telepath (on the CGC boards) have had it right from day one.

Just remember that.


Red

[stupidman]

He's too humble to mention it, but I'd put Redhook on that list for a triple threat!

[Red Hook]

Susan Cicconi is a true restoration expert with a real sense of aesthetics.

The rest are just opportunists. :)