Should we be afraid?

[clayface]

First....Let us all try to keep this civil for the sake of honest debate. Okey dokey?
There's a perception out there that the only safe way to buy a comic book today is to buy one that been certified. I myself have never really had too much of a problem buying raw books and spotting resto. Are the consequences of buying raw as severe as the pro certification collectors and dealers believe it to be?

[Red Hook]

If you're buying a big ticket item (for me it's a couple hundred and up), you have a better chance of getting an unrestored book if you buy certified.

Red


How's that for civil? ;)

[Ijiwaru Sensei]

If you are buying on-line, buying an uncertified book can be quite the crap shoot.

[clayface]

Whereas a major auction house or a reputable dealer like Metropolis, you would be safer.

[Ijiwaru Sensei]

Yes. You get a feel for how tight certain dealers are once you've ordered from them. I have had pretty good luck with Metropolis. My Comics Shop, not so much.

The real crap shoot is trying to buy on e-bay.

[Hoss]

I've never really considered resto or anything like that when I purchase comics. Of course, I don't really ever spend more than a few bucks on a comic! As I am now thinking of starting exclusively on back issues for my collection, I may want to start learning about detection and what not. As a buyer, I am comepletely clueless about this sort of thing.

--

[68 Guns]

Whereas a major auction house or a reputable dealer like Metropolis, you would be safer.


I'd feel much safer buying from Metropolis than buying on ebay.I've seen too many hinky things coming out of Heritage to say the same for them.
Buying an unslabbed high dollar book of ebay is too much of a gamble for me,and I'm a professional gambler.There are a few(a very few) dealers that I'd buy an unslabbed book from without seeing it in person,but thats because I know I can return it if the guys at CGC find restoration.My skills at sighting restoration I'd say are above the average fan,but no where close to the guys in Sarasota.

[AussieRuss]

First....Let us all try to keep this civil for the sake of honest debate. Okey dokey?
There's a perception out there that the only safe way to buy a comic book today is to buy one that been certified. I myself have never really had too much of a problem buying raw books and spotting resto. Are the consequences of buying raw as severe as the pro certification collectors and dealers believe it to be?

Good topic Clayface.

If its to fill slots in my reading copies I will not purchase a certified book for obvious reasons.

1. They are not high grade.
2. I read them.

With regard to my Pedigree'd books I will always have them certified or purchase them certified.

I believe that it's of some importance to retain knowledge of a pedigreed books history and the more they change hands the harder this becomes if they are not certified.

Russ...#cheers#

[clayface]

Good topic Clayface.

If its to fill slots in my reading copies I will not purchase a certified book for obvious reasons.

1. They are not high grade.
2. I read them.

With regard to my Pedigree'd books I will always have them certified or purchase them certified.

I believe that it's of some importance to retain knowledge of a pedigreed books history and the more they change hands the harder this becomes if they are not certified.

Russ...#cheers#

That's a great point about the Pedigreed books.

[btdhome]

course any of this is based solely on the word of the certifier.
good rep is key, but sooo many have been tempted...

[malaprop]

My collection is probably 25% raw books bought on E-Bay. If I remember to follow a few simple rules, I don't get burned.

- read their feedback
- read the ENTIRE book description
- read the return policy
- deal only with reputable sellers, don't shop for Action #1 or Tec #27

Of courses the fact that my target is VG GA, maybe it's easier for me.

[68 Guns]

My collection is probably 25% raw books bought on E-Bay. If I remember to follow a few simple rules, I don't get burned.

- read their feedback
- read the ENTIRE book description
- read the return policy
- deal only with reputable sellers, don't shop for Action #1 or Tec #27

Of courses the fact that my target is VG GA, maybe it's easier for me.

Out of curiousity,how do you know you aren't getting burned? Are you an expert at detecting color touch or pressing?I find a lot more CT on VG GA than on similar condition SA. GA books are cut so badly at the printers that I'd imagine detecting micro-trimming would be very tough.

[jaydeebee]

Out of curiousity,how do you know you aren't getting burned? Are you an expert at detecting color touch or pressing?I find a lot more CT on VG GA than on similar condition SA. GA books are cut so badly at the printers that I'd imagine detecting micro-trimming would be very tough.

So no one can determine for themselves whether something is worthy of collecting unless it's been given the thumbs-up by an "expert"? Surely not.

Some of us just collect books for the sake of owning them. A spot of color here and a nip with the scissors there isn't necessarily going to back me down off of a comic that I want, especially a GA. Price would be a lot more likely to chase me off. We all collect differently and for different reasons, my primary reason is for fun, not for profit. (although profit would be nice sometimes! :))

[Capitalrecoveryman]

Me, I get my rocks off bidding VG prices on small scans hoping for Fine books. Win some and lose some.

[68 Guns]

So no one can determine for themselves whether something is worthy of collecting unless it's been given the thumbs-up by an "expert"? Surely not.

Some of us just collect books for the sake of owning them. A spot of color here and a nip with the scissors there isn't necessarily going to back me down off of a comic that I want, especially a GA. Price would be a lot more likely to chase me off. We all collect differently and for different reasons, my primary reason is for fun, not for profit. (although profit would be nice sometimes! :))

If you are paying for a non-restored book,and you recieve a restored one,in my opinion you got burned. As someone who actively buys peoples collections,I see restored books that the owner had no idea were restored all the time.Its not a matter of being ' worthy' of collecting,its a matter of did you pay too much for a book with a hidden defect. If your only goal is to buy comics to read,thats not a problem. If you entertain the thought of someday selling your collection,it is.
In the late 70s thru the mid 80s,color touch was fairly acceptable in our hobby and quite a few books were given that treatment. Nowadays,a CT book will sell for 30-45% of a non-CT book.
So,yes,IN MY OPINION,you can pay $50 for a book,be very happy about your purchase,and still have been ripped off.
Others may feel differently.

[malaprop]

I don't believe a minor color touch is going to knock a book out of VG. Tape, on the other hand, I do avoid. If I pay half of OPG for my VG GA book, I'm happy if it's really VG or better.

[68 Guns]

You should be able to buy non-restored VG books at 50% guide all day long.Paying 50% guide for books with color touch or trimming is silly.You'd be better of buying slabbed PLODs,which rarely go for 30% guide if a non-key.

[malaprop]

Most sellers on E-Bay have no idea what color touch or trimming is. Most of the books I buy are in the $10 - $30 range. Very few people think it's worth their time to work on a $10 comic, and it really doesn't bother me if they do. If I like what I see in the scans and I can get it for 50% I will. Have you got any Ken Shannon's for sale?

[Mariner]

If you are paying for a non-restored book,and you recieve a restored one,in my opinion you got burned. As someone who actively buys peoples collections,I see restored books that the owner had no idea were restored all the time.Its not a matter of being ' worthy' of collecting,its a matter of did you pay too much for a book with a hidden defect. If your only goal is to buy comics to read,thats not a problem. If you entertain the thought of someday selling your collection,it is.
In the late 70s thru the mid 80s,color touch was fairly acceptable in our hobby and quite a few books were given that treatment. Nowadays,a CT book will sell for 30-45% of a non-CT book.
So,yes,IN MY OPINION,you can pay $50 for a book,be very happy about your purchase,and still have been ripped off.
Others may feel differently.


I feel ripped off when I buy a book that's got names and date marks on it, but it costs 70% more just because the marks aren't considered color touch.

(And, of course, if the cover writing is part of its pedigree, you have to multiply that many times)

[Quato]

Yes. You get a feel for how tight certain dealers are once you've ordered from them. I have had pretty good luck with Metropolis. My Comics Shop, not so much.

The real crap shoot is trying to buy on e-bay.

I've ordered maybe 5 books from Metropolis and all look pressed to me. They are abnormally flat for a book with the defects they had. I was pleased with them, but if they are pressing them I think it should be disclosed.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Quato2/Charlton/001_Cartoon_Spice_uncropped.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Quato2/Charlton/003_Cartoon_Spice_uncropped.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Quato2/Charlton/004_Cartoon_Spice_uncropped.jpg

Q

[68 Guns]

When did you buy them?I think Metro announced a year or so ago that they had stopped pressing books and would disclose books that were pressed.

[Mariner]

I'd feel much safer buying from Metropolis than buying on ebay.I've seen too many hinky things coming out of Heritage to say the same for them.
Buying an unslabbed high dollar book of ebay is too much of a gamble for me,and I'm a professional gambler.There are a few(a very few) dealers that I'd buy an unslabbed book from without seeing it in person,but thats because I know I can return it if the guys at CGC find restoration.My skills at sighting restoration I'd say are above the average fan,but no where close to the guys in Sarasota.


I guess it's easy to be the best at spotting resto when it's your own standard you're applying. It's resto if you say it is and not resto if you say it isn't.

I've seen slabbed books with glue in purple and blue, and books with all kiinds of intentional markings on them, again sometimes in blue and sometimes in purple. And yet, though both books appear to me to have identical alteration by human hands, one says it's resto while the other says it's not.

So, when I see that I have to admit I can't "spot" the "difference" the way they can. I get too distracted by the fact they both have been altered in the same way.

[Quato]

When did you buy them?I think Metro announced a year or so ago that they had stopped pressing books and would disclose books that were pressed.

Time flies when you are getting old, but I think it was 6 months ago. I get their email and I've never seen them either admit to pressing or say they were stopping. I used to never buy comics by mail, but Atlanta simply has no serious Silver or Gold back issues in their local stores. Being a travel hub I think it's been picked over too well. The shows have nice items, but it's hit and miss to get something specific you want.

I only have two gripes with Metropolis.

1) They forced me to sign for a comic and I had to take half a day off work to be at home when it arrived. That pissed me off. They didn't make me sign for the first delivery, so I was taken off guard when I had to sign for the second one.

2) They are slow and unresponsive. I inquired about a comic they have on their site. In the past 6 months it's still got the "Please Inquire" picture up. I'm not begging for it. After a couple of months I dropped it off my want list. I know now that I'm not going to waste my time inquiring upon comics if they aren't processed yet. As far as I'm concerned they don't have it and I don't care if they do. I'll shop with people who care about their customers time and requests.

Another retailer says you have to nag them. I refuse to do that.

Q

[Quato]

If you are paying for a non-restored book,and you recieve a restored one,in my opinion you got burned. As someone who actively buys peoples collections,I see restored books that the owner had no idea were restored all the time.Its not a matter of being ' worthy' of collecting,its a matter of did you pay too much for a book with a hidden defect. If your only goal is to buy comics to read,thats not a problem. If you entertain the thought of someday selling your collection,it is.
In the late 70s thru the mid 80s,color touch was fairly acceptable in our hobby and quite a few books were given that treatment. Nowadays,a CT book will sell for 30-45% of a non-CT book.
So,yes,IN MY OPINION,you can pay $50 for a book,be very happy about your purchase,and still have been ripped off.
Others may feel differently.

My Hulk #3 has amateur color touches all over it and it's low grade. It's still a pretty darn solid book and I'm exceedingly happy to own it. Then again it only cost me $10 in 1980. I might have overpaid, but I don't care.

Q

[jaeldubyoo]

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Or not.

It really depends on your comfort level in dealing with the different factors; price, condition, source, etc. Some people want some assurance they’re getting what they’re paying for, especially for high priced, high grade comics. If you want that assurance, you pay a premium for it. You can’t have it both ways most of the time. Either you pay for that assurance or are willing to take a chance that the raw comic is what it’s suppose to be.

If you are willing to buy raw, then you should be comfortable with the risk. If you’re going to lose sleep over it, then you’re probably better of not taking that chance.

[SILLYSHIP--pirate eye--]

I don't care about grade as much as I do undisclosed manipulation.

[Khumbu]

My problem is that the main comic dealer in my tower in the 80's and 90's used to do color touching all the time on all his backstock. I know this for a fact, since my best friend used to work for him and helped him do it. Now I have to be careful when I buy collection in town because most of the comics came from his store as he was the only source during that time. Some of you say that you can spot restoration, but what happens when you are in the situation that I had last year when I had a lady come to me with over 10,000 books that were obviously from this guys store (they were her dead husbands collection), she wanted to sell them right away. There were 10 House of Mystery 92, 10 Tomb of Dracula 10, 2 full runs of Conan, X-Men 94-145 plus Giant Size X-Men, a run of Tales of Suspense from 43 on up, I know that there is restoration in the bunch but don't have time to check it out. But I know that I can't sell the restored books for full price, and if I sell a book that I don't think is restored and the customer finds out it is restored....well you know, even if you offer a refund, with this many books...Still you gotta buy something like that. Still the Lady doesn't quite understand about that, etc. Still, gotta bite the bullet. Kinda rambled on there.

[comicworkbench]

Don't try to hide the fact you suspect restoration. Pass the risk onto your potential buyers. I think if you are honest with buyers you will not have any trouble selling most of the runs you mentioned. I would factor the possible restoration into your investment and pay the lady what you think is fair while enabling you to earn at least a 30% profit. That is what I would do if I was running a business.

[jordanscott]

I don't have a problem with resto, really.

It's the disclosure that I have a problem with. Well, the lack of disclosure.

I'm not a high grade collector and I'm not a speculator so resto doesn't really enter into my decision making process right now.

Later on, when I start to expand my collection to some GA books, I fully expect i'll be looking specifically for well done resto books since there is such a negative stigma and that keeps the price lower.

I'd have no problem buying a GD All Star Comics #3 that has had some decent resto work bringing it up to an apparent VG as it's unlikely I'll every be willing to drop real VG $$ on a book that expensive.

But that's just me. I want the books, not the best possible example of the book. I generally collect in the F - VF range.

[Quato]

I don't care about grade as much as I do undisclosed manipulation.

Buy a black light with a magnifying glass. Learn all you can about restoration methods and treat these defects as you would any other. You can't assume that the seller even knows enough about restoration to detect it himself.

I've had some experience looking at paper mends and color touches. When all the dust settles, all that really matters is the you like the book and the price you paid.

Q

[arexcrooke]

There is an excellent thread on the CGC forums that discusses, at lenth, resto techniques and what to look for.

[tiptophimp]

I have no intrest in resto books.
What good are they?
#humantorch#