Capt's 9/11 Thread

[capt.steel]

Don't worry, I'm not going to do a long diatribe you've all heard before.

Write what you want.

I just wanted to say that I'm STILL waiting for our murdered dead to be avenged.

And I'm sorry no one liked my idea for the monument at Ground Zero: two spikes the same height as the World Trade Center Towers on which we stack Islamic Terrorists one on top of the other, saving a spot on top of each spike - one for Osama Bin Laden and one for Ayman al-Zawahiri. (Of course I'm not really serious - the smell would be terrible - but this concept displays the rage I still feel at both the terrorists and at the ever increasing apathy of the rest of the world.)

[malaprop]

My thoughts are you're a day early.

[capt.steel]

More like a few hours early! I'm just staying one step ahead of the secret U.S. government complex that my friend "Joe" told me orchestrated, carried out and covered up the 2001 attacks!

(Funny how "Joe" accused George Bush of being the world's biggest ignoramous and YET, when it came to 9/11, Bush was able to plan, commit and get away with one of the world's most devastating attacks!)

[malaprop]

I know, I'm just quibbling. I don't like to give the "Truthers" any more attention than they deserve, which is very close to none. It is done by people, like the Holocaust deniers, who want to diminish the emotional impact of important events. Like trying to turn the 9/11 monument into a "green" issue.

[capt.steel]

The 9/11 monument is a "green" issue? I haven't heard about that. Can you tell me more?

[malaprop]

Let's see if this works. It seems to be where the late Van Jones wanted to take the remembrance, so I hope it's now moot.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/08/30/2009-08-30_keep_faith_with_911_official_observances_must_n ot_obscure_days_true_meaning.html

[kenmacny]

Red, white and blue day today at my kids school in rememberence of what was lost on this day.

[pasnat54]

As I've said before, I was somewhat insulated from the full emotional impact of 9/11. My father had had a stroke five days before, so we were in the hospital round the clock. He was first and foremost on our minds.

On 9/11, I was awakened by a call from my sister, asking if I had been watching the news from New York. She found out about it from friends in another country; our friends in Rio de Janiero had called; they wanted to make sure she was okay because her job frequently took her to New York.

We watched the 9/11 coverage in one of the waiting rooms of Methodist Hospital of Arcadia. My father passed away 12 days later.

One of the stories I remember was that the death toll would be 50,000, almost what we lost during all of the Vietnam war. However, it turned out this wild estimate was based on the buildings' total daily traffic.

I also remember how other countries rallied in support and empathy. A German naval vessel painted a huge sign saying "We stand with you" and displayed it on their ship's side to let passing American vessels know we had a friend. I saw pictures of candlelight vigils in Sweden and London. How I wish we had been able to hang onto that international good will.

[oxbladder]

How I wish we had been able to hang onto that international good will.

As someone not from the USA I might be able to give some insight on how that good will was lost. Some of it should be obvious.

The good will went south almost immediately, in my mind when George Bush declared war on terrorism. Now there is nothing wrong with that but it was the manner in which it was done that was the problem. Bush essentially said that if you can't or won't help you will be considered enemy and will come after you. A completely irrational and shocking declaration. Without a doubt there are countries that are not in any position to provide much more than maybe moral or philosophical support.

Not to mention no one even knew at the time what "support" would mean. Over time we here have found out just what "supporting" has meant and, in the end, much it has cost this country alot of money or grief for very little return. In fact the more we do the more we have to do because pretty much everything we do is not enough.

There is also the ongoing issue of the persistent accusation that some of the terrorist came through Canada. This is false yet high levels of US administration continue to pull this out when they want the Canadian government to do something more. Yes a few years before 9/11 one terrorist tried to get from Canada to the US but he was stopped but that is it. Yet the US would have US believe that terrorist are common and streaming over the border.

After the "your with us or against us" speech it became clear that war meant basically walking into the Middle East with tanks and guns and forcing countries like Iraq, Iran, etc into democracy. No doubt there are many governments that are tyrannical in the Middle East but just walking in and sweeping them out is not always the best means of getting rid of terrorism.

It was clear to many outside the US that the basis for going into Iraq was bogus. Again that's not to mean that we did not want leaders like Hussein out of power but walking into a country on false premises is bound to cause more headaches in the end than good.

Canada chose to go to Afghanistan because there at least appeared to be a valid reason to go in but they had no desire to go into Iraq. I can tell you for a fact that Canada was burned on the stake for this decision at many levels of the American population (including government).

Now let me express again that I doubt there is a single person in Canada that does feel bad for what happened on this day back in '01 but how it was handled afterwords was unfortunate. However, it's not like it is an easy event to respond to. I can't even say with certainty that all Canadians would agree with my points above.

Personally, I don't know what the best response would have been because the history behind 9/11 is not a simple matter. All I know is that it was handled like it was a simple matter (and not just by the USA).

[pasnat54]

You're absolutely right about how we lost the world's goodwill. If we had just concentrated on Al Quada and the Taliban which gave them a sanctuary from which to operate, we would have still have the world on our side. But Bush was like a child, looking around for someone to hit after being hit himself, and he waaaaay overreached.

When you see the list of countries that joined the coalition, you can't help but think they were mostly trying to stay in the US's good graces, rather than supporting us on an idealogical basis. Some countries were intimidated into sending token forces.

That area is pretty much ungovernable... by western standards. It's foolish to even try. We should have expended all our efforts on getting Bin Laden and his stooges, made greater use of local intel, then left with the message that "This is all we want — the *(^$^&#$% who murdered our people. We're going... as you were."

I don't want this to become a Bush-bashing thread because the anniversary of 9/11 is what it's about.

So I'll share more memories. I remember reading in one of the newsmagazines that shortly after the second tower fell, the streets and sidewalks were full of women's shoes. They couldn't run in their high heels, and so they abandoned their shoes because getting the heck outta there was their first and only priority.

I recall seeing people who were so covered with dust that you couldn't tell their race — they were all grey.

And one thing that still brings a tear to my eyes is the Academy Awards presentation a few months later. (I think it was the Oscars, but maybe it was the Tonys or Emmys.) Whoppie Goldberg was the host and at the end, she spoke about 9/11... then she closed by saying, "Don't worry, New York. We got your back." And she turned around and on the back of her full-length coat were the logos of the NY fire and police departments. Very touching.

[Sgt Major Secrets]

I can still remember where I was when the plane hit the second tower. I was on my way to work, listening to the morning DJ's talk about the plane that had hit the first tower. At that point everyone thought that it was just a freak accident. Just as I was heading through the toll booth on the Garden State Parkway, the DJ's reacted to the 2nd plane hitting the tower.

At that moment, I think everyone realized that it was not just a random accident but we were under attack. And as I left that toll booth, I headed over a bridge that let you see the towers in the distance. I remember some idiot in front of me swerving all over the road as he tried to take a picture and I remember thinking, "you a$$hole, people are dying and you're taking a souvenier picture."

From my office at work, I could also see the towers and, while I didn't actually see them fall, I remember staring out after the first tower fell and not being able to comprehend that there was only one tower there.

I was able to get in touch with my friends over the next few days and found that all of them were all right. My girlfriend at the time had almost taken a job at the World Trade Center a few months back. Another friend was crossing the parking lot near the towers when the first plane hit and he was nearly flattened by falling concrete.

I also remember getting an work email from a recruiter from down South. I politely responded back that today might not be the best day to get people from the Northeast.

[capt.steel]

Hi Ox.
I have to agree with the last two posts that the U.S. invasion of Iraq was one of the biggest detriments to international relations under Bush. I've said that from the beginning before we even invaded.

However, I will defend the Bush speech just after 9/11.

The rhetoric was not intended to be literal and he never said "you're either with us or against us". I believe he said something closer to "if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists".

I believe at that time everyone understood what that meant. It did NOT mean "If you don't support the American government and all it's foreign policies then you must go join Al Qaida and become a radical suicide bomber."

It was not meant to be a threat saying that any nation who does not ally themselves with us militarily will be declared an enemy to be attacked and I don't think anyone listening to the speech in the context it was given would think that.

It meant that if you cannot see what has happened as a completely unwarranted, heinous act of senseless violence against fellow human beings and mass murder of innocents, then your mind set is as disturbed as that of those who would carry out such an act. If you're able to rationalize, defend or support this attack, then your heart must contain the same kind of hatred as the terrorists.

I give Bush credit for the speech he made after 9/11. I don't recall if it was the next day or during the next week, but it was exactly what the American public needed to hear at that time and was a great speech.

[jaydeebee]

I remember that Tuesday morning leaving for work and hearing on the radio about a "small plane" which had crashed into the WTC. Since I was still close to home, I returned home to see on TV what was going on. By the time I got home, the second plane had hit and it was of course obvious at that moment that this was not an accident. They were also talking about a fire at the Pentagon, and numerous jets were reported missing in the confusion of what was happening. By the time I got to work, armed with my tiny portable B&W TV, all H*** was breaking loose in NYC with estimates of 10's of thousands possibly being killed, that's when I suddenly realized the date...9.1.1.

Aside from the "emegency services" meaning of the numbers 911, Sept. 11th, 2001 was also the 30th anniversary of my Father's death, not a good day for my family especially knowing that it would now be a day of infamy for all time, it made the date which was already a very bad day...a very, very dark day indeed, not just for my family, but for thousands of others who would now share our personal day of infamy.

Tragically and ironically, even as I type this on Sept. 11th, 2009, another close family member lies near death and may not last the day.

Sept. 11th is just not a good day. :(

[oxbladder]

Hi Ox.
I have to agree with the last two posts that the U.S. invasion of Iraq was one of the biggest detriments to international relations under Bush. I've said that from the beginning before we even invaded.

However, I will defend the Bush speech just after 9/11.

The rhetoric was not intended to be literal and he never said "you're either with us or against us". I believe he said something closer to "if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists".

I believe at that time everyone understood what that meant. It did NOT mean "If you don't support the American government and all it's foreign policies then you must go join Al Qaida and become a radical suicide bomber."

It was not meant to be a threat saying that any nation who does not ally themselves with us militarily will be declared an enemy to be attacked and I don't think anyone listening to the speech in the context it was given would think that.

It meant that if you cannot see what has happened as a completely unwarranted, heinous act of senseless violence against fellow human beings and mass murder of innocents, then your mind set is as disturbed as that of those who would carry out such an act. If you're able to rationalize, defend or support this attack, then your heart must contain the same kind of hatred as the terrorists.

I give Bush credit for the speech he made after 9/11. I don't recall if it was the next day or during the next week, but it was exactly what the American public needed to hear at that time and was a great speech.


I don't dispute what he intended with his speech, and you are right with the the wording btw it is just easier to type and means the same thing as the way I typed it, but with the military might the US has and the emotion of the time certainly lended to that line being a far more serious threat than was intended. I wouldn't doubt many outside the US were frightened by that line. I would say too regardless what was intended it was taken literally by many within the US otherwise why would they have such a negative reaction to Canada not entering into the Iraq war? I mean really it is not like we are anything close to a significant military force.

I know what was intended by that line but I think different wording would have served the President much better. I really do think that is the start of good will going off the rails.

With respect to the anti-Bush comment earlier, I never intended it to be anti-Bush I tried to keep his name out of it for the most part. I tried to keep it general as possible because he was not the only one making the mistakes.

[capt.steel]

Personally, I felt we were in a very good position internationally even during the retaliatory attacks on the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2002. At that time the only people I heard making accusations toward the Bush admin. for hurting international relations was from the far left conspiracy theorists who were also accusing Bush, the CIA, Israel, Jews and Rush Limbaugh of orchestrating 9/11.

The way I saw it, things didn't really start to go sour until the pending invasion of Iraq.

And Ox, I may have missed it, but I never heard anything disparraging toward Canada from Americans. (I'm sure something was probably said. I recall a lot of talk about the French and Germans during the beginning of the Iraq fiasco, but I don't remember hearing anything about Canada - except for that poor squadron of soldiers the U.S. forces accidentally wiped out.)

I've always loved Canada & respected its alliance with the U.S. and the good will between our peoples.

[oxbladder]

Personally, I felt we were in a very good position internationally even during the retaliatory attacks on the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2002. At that time the only people I heard making accusations toward the Bush admin. for hurting international relations was from the far left conspiracy theorists who were also accusing Bush, the CIA, Israel, Jews and Rush Limbaugh of orchestrating 9/11.

I would mostly agree. (Mind you both far left and far right were doing a fair bit of damage but that was mostly out of the press ... at least up here.) There were border issues but likely that stayed out of the press for the most part.


The way I saw it, things didn't really start to go sour until the pending invasion of Iraq.Yes, the train left the rails here for sure before Iraq is was just rocking.


And Ox, I may have missed it, but I never heard anything disparraging toward Canada from Americans. (I'm sure something was probably said. I recall a lot of talk about the French and Germans during the beginning of the Iraq fiasco, but I don't remember hearing anything about Canada - except for that poor squadron of soldiers the U.S. forces accidentally wiped out.)
It was probably not in the news but it hit the news alot here. My province neighbors North Dakota and our press did some reports/interviews with some of the folks in ND (and maybe SD) and they were not saying very nice things at all.

On some forums (not political) I was going to at the time they straight up refused to answer Canadian's questions or trolled the Canadians. Mods did NOTHING. It was not very pleasant at all.

Like I say though much of this would not have reached many folks in the US. Except maybe in north border areas perhaps.


I've always loved Canada & respected its alliance with the U.S. and the good will between our peoples.Thanks I like the US and there is no doubt in my mind that our relationship is very important. It is just too bad that both our governments chose to be very combative between 2002 and 2005/6. (Mostly a product of a right wing government in the US and a left of centre party governing Canada. Since a right wing party came into power here relations have leveled but much needs to be done. I think the regular populace on both sides of the border have gone back to normal long ago.)

Leaving the politics aside now some things I remember of that day here (some obviously not memories of the event but may have resulted from the response to the event):

-It was also a beautiful, warm, clear sunny day here.
-I didn't get alot of work done that day, no one did really as we went upstairs to the conference room occasionally to see what was going on.
-being really confused, shocked, and, for lack of a better term, excited (yeah I know that sounds bad but it is hard to explain except to say that it seemed like all of the senses were heightened like when one sees and reacts to an accident situation)
-seeing building 7 (I think that was the one) come down (I don't believe I saw the towers come down because I was working)
-calling my parents and telling them that I didn't think it would be wise to head into the US that day (they were going to my cousin's wedding that was supposed to be on the weekend on Martha's Vinyard. They went and because of delays at the border, etc arrived only an hour or so before the wedding. I think it was because they had to drive and originally they were going to fly.)
-standing outside having a smoke in the evening and thinking wow it sure is extra quiet then remembering that there was no air traffic, trains and very little highway traffic (I live under a fairly busy air corridor, all trains heading east and west have to go through my small city and I live very close that railway, and I am close enough to the Trans Canada highway to be able to notice when there is a drop in traffic on it.) it was like that for a few days.
-watching the news until very late even when nothing new had been coming in for hours.

Odd fact:

-The same person who alerted myself and my supervisor what was going on that day was doing the exact same job at the exact same time today as that day in 2001.